Sylvanas: the only honorable Horde leader

[Schattenlied]

What value of Horde did she break?

Honor, or more specifically she lacks it entirely and conducts the war without it at all. Honor is explicitly listed as something the Horde values in several places, by Blizzard, such as the Pandaren quests to choose a faction.

And further more, she violated freewill of which Forsaken?

It's never stipulated that free will was something reserved for the Forsaken. They hold free will dear because violating someone's free will makes them no better than the one who made them what they are in the first place, it makes them no better than Arthas.

[Wildberry]

How so?

/10char

-Denied Garrosh's legitimacy as Warchief
-Threatened to kill the Warchief
-Established himself as an outspoken critic of the Warchief
-Participated in numerous secret, subversive meetings in which participants openly fantasize about the overthrow of the Warchief

Garrosh's treatment of Vol'jin was justified, Garrosh can't be held morally responsible for his treatment of traitors that flocked to Vol'jin's banner after punishment was dished out.

[Super Dickmann]

Honor, or more specifically she lacks it entirely and conducts the war without it at all. Honor is explicitly listed as something the Horde values in several places, by Blizzard, such as the Pandaren quests to choose a faction.
It's never stipulated that free will was something reserved for the Forsaken. They hold free will dear because violating someone's free will makes them no better than the one who made them what they are in the first place, it makes them no better than Arthas.

While Shattenlied will pretend he has me on ignore while editing his posts to answer my points, I'll toss in a reply so no one thinks there's a point here.

Honor is massively nebulous and ultimately hollow. Both Thrall and Garrosh accused each other of being dishonorable, and Nazgrim said that both we and he are honorable, despite operating on completely opposed principles. Honor is stabbing one person in the back to defend your leader being forbidden, but hiring an army of assassins to backstab hundreds of people in the back is allowed. It's a buzzword and one the Horde only pays lip service to. It also isn't codified. Only the Blood Oath is, hence why it's the only real Horde value that everyone must subscribe to to be a part of it.

As for free will, the Forsaken have been practicing mind control since Vanilla. Their values on magical mind control extend only to other Forsaken, which Derek is not, and even if he was, his is a case of psychological abuse and grooming of the like the Forsaken practice in lesser forms to those raised since Cata.

[Ielenia]

Please go read some of the replies to Daemos' original response, and get back to me.

I have. Which is why I pointed this out. He never claimed they are "objective". Daemos simply said "they're not the white knights you're claiming they are".

[Mixxy]

So a really shit version of the last God of War game?

Yeah! There's honestly a certain charm to shitty re-tellings of good stories.

[vipers]

What value of Horde did she break? And further more, she violated freewill of which Forsaken?

How so?

/10char

Did you even play the game or read before the storm book if you not see anything wrong what Sylvanas is doing ?

[Kuntantee]

Did you even play the game or read before the storm book if you not see anything wrong what Sylvanas is doing ?

I didn't read the books, but I played the game. That has nothing to do with how I see nothing wrong with Sylvanas tho. Yes, other than bombing horde soldiers, I see nothing wrong with her. And by the way, I totally think that's out of character writing. Teldrassil is a valid military target. It's one of enemy capital. I do not care if its burned or razed to the ground.

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-Denied Garrosh's legitimacy as Warchief
-Threatened to kill the Warchief
-Established himself as an outspoken critic of the Warchief
-Participated in numerous secret, subversive meetings in which participants openly fantasize about the overthrow of the Warchief

Garrosh's treatment of Vol'jin was justified, Garrosh can't be held morally responsible for his treatment of traitors that flocked to Vol'jin's banner after punishment was dished out.

The first three does not even come close to being rebellious. Cairne challenged Garrosh's legitimacy too. As for secret meetings, which ones?

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While Shattenlied will pretend he has me on ignore while editing his posts to answer my points, I'll toss in a reply so no one thinks there's a point here.

Honor is massively nebulous and ultimately hollow. Both Thrall and Garrosh accused each other of being dishonorable, and Nazgrim said that both we and he are honorable, despite operating on completely opposed principles. Honor is stabbing one person in the back to defend your leader being forbidden, but hiring an army of assassins to backstab hundreds of people in the back is allowed. It's a buzzword and one the Horde only pays lip service to. It also isn't codified. Only the Blood Oath is, hence why it's the only real Horde value that everyone must subscribe to to be a part of it.

As for free will, the Forsaken have been practicing mind control since Vanilla. Their values on magical mind control extend only to other Forsaken, which Derek is not, and even if he was, his is a case of psychological abuse and grooming of the like the Forsaken practice in lesser forms to those raised since Cata.

Good points. Furthermore, Alliance's aggression from Vanilla to up until end of Cata has always been ignored when talking about faction war context. Didn't Varian hated Horde for decades? In two expansions, Alliance dared to attack Horde, in their own capital twice. Slaughtered civilians in Camp Taurajo. Didn't Alliance blame Horde for Varian's death? Didn't Genn attack Horde fleet? Not to mention Jiana basically went Hitler.

People ignore aggression by Alliance for some odd reasons. And I will repeat again, "You call for peace when it suits you" is the perfect summation of Alliance.

I am also told that Christie Golden writes Horde in a way that Alliance attacks are always justified by Horde leaders. If this is true, that's blatant bias.

[Nightheart]

She doesn’t obey orders though.....

Dem worgen at the end!

[Syegfryed]

The first three does not even come close to being rebellious..

but treason yes.

[ausoin]

I didn't read the books, but I played the game. That has nothing to do with how I see nothing wrong with Sylvanas tho. Yes, other than bombing horde soldiers, I see nothing wrong with her. And by the way, I totally think that's out of character writing. Teldrassil is a valid military target. It's one of enemy capital. I do not care if its burned or razed to the ground.

Slaughtered civilians in Camp Taurajo

Hmmmmmm.....

[Kuntantee]

Hmmmmmm.....

What's so "hmmm" about it? I didn't say civilians weren't killed in Teldrassil. If you read the posts, instead of taking parts of them out of context, you'd see that I was referring to aggression of Alliance, which most think it doesn't exist.

[Lupinemancer]

Sylvanas: the only dishonorable Horde leader

I couldn't agree more!

[ausoin]

What's so "hmmm" about it? I didn't say civilians weren't killed in Teldrassil. If you read the posts, instead of taking parts of them out of context, you'd see that I was referring to aggression of Alliance, which most think it doesn't exist.

Then why it is aggresion if its a military target like Darnassus?

[Feanoro]

Honor is massively nebulous and ultimately hollow.

As written by Blizzard, since I VERY much doubt the writers understand or believe in it themselves.

It also isn't codified. Only the Blood Oath is, hence why it's the only real Horde value that everyone must subscribe to to be a part of it.

As for free will, the Forsaken have been practicing mind control since Vanilla.

And the Blood Oath denies free will anyway. Poorly thought out, inconsistent with the supposed values of the Horde.

Good points. Furthermore, Alliance's aggression from Vanilla to up until end of Cata has always been ignored when talking about faction war context. Didn't Varian hated Horde for decades? In two expansions, Alliance dared to attack Horde, in their own capital twice. Slaughtered civilians in Camp Taurajo. Didn't Alliance blame Horde for Varian's death? Didn't Genn attack Horde fleet? Not to mention Jiana basically went Hitler.

Yeah, Varian hated the Horde for absolutely no reason! He didn't watch them burn Stormwind when he was a boy "Not the same Horde!" you'll cry. Then Thrall shouldn't have continued its name, symbols, rules (lol Horde having rules beyond "whatever the warchief feels like"), and hero worship of the monsters of the Old Horde. That doesn't exactly convince outsiders you're turning over a new leaf. He saw allowing Scourge Lite in the Horde as a clear statement too, proven at the Wrathgate. Hell, Varian was one of the more believable characters in his reaction to the Horde.

Oh no, Genn attacked sweet innocent Sylvie's ship! I'll be the first to say he let personal vengeance endanger the mission, but considering Sylvie was about to betray the world (and my Horde afflock) to Helya, which was hinted in Azsuna, he ultimately did the right thing for the wrong reason. I eagerly await rehash #5982 on how gameplay trumps story when it's convenient for defending Sylvie.

Aside from this forum vastly abusing "but but Hitler!", I just can't understand why Jaina stopped fucking over her own people for the Horde after they repeatedly stabbed her in the back, and ultimately murdered everyone she cared about! She should have kept being friends with benefits to Thrall (maybe she could have been passed around like the warchief title?), and mailed the warchief some hair, while actively pushing for peace with the Horde in a quasi-treasonous way! Oh wait, Hordies loved it when Jaina was that way, not so much when they copy pasted it onto Baine. And since this post invokes "muh Taurajo" with no effort, let me reply with the same effort:

And I will repeat again, "You call for peace when it suits you" is the perfect summation of Alliance.

And "you play the victim after starting shit" is the perfect summation of the Horde.

[Kuntantee]

Then why it is aggresion if its a military target like Darnassus?

Where did I say Camp Taurajo is a military target? Darnassus is one, Camp Taurajo is hardly a military target.

[ausoin]

Where did I say Camp Taurajo is a military target? Darnassus is one, Camp Taurajo is hardly a military target.

Well both were at the time mostly filled with civlians with little soldiers, so why one is a military target and the other isnt?

[Kuntantee]

Well both were at the time mostly filled with civlians with little soldiers, so why one is a military target and the other isnt?

Because one is the capital of Nelves, the other is an irrelevant and poorly positioned trading camp...

[ausoin]

Because one is the capital of Nelves, the other is an irrelevant and poorly positioned trading camp...

So? It was all civilians, not actuall military either way.

[Kuntantee]

So? It was all civilians, not actuall military either way.

Darnassus was all civilians? Is this a joke? Sorry, no. Do we have anything that Sylvanas wanted to kill Nelf civilians? Because it seems to me that whenever Alliance slaughter civilians it is defended as "but they left a hole in the siege" kind of shit writing, whereas for Horde, these kind of details are left to the reasoning of reader, to say the least...Unless there is something that I am not aware of, the intention for burning Teldrassil wasn't to kill Nelves.


Then again, we are talking about a company which portrays Forsaken like Nazi officers (Darkshore Warfront loading screen). Shit writing and idiotic Alliance fanboyism is plaguing this game.

[Zulkhan]

Sylvanas, despite admitting that her own sense of honor is not as strong as it could be, is so far the only Horde leader to have shown any respect for the Blood Oath. Her Warchief commanded, and she obeyed. Other Horde leaders only obey the Warchief's command as long as it suits them. As soon as they are asked to do something they have qualms with (like hurting the Alliance in Baine's case), they either resort to plotting and scheming behind the Warchief's back or committing open treason.

In fact, Orgrim, Garrosh, and Cairne are the only other three Horde leaders who have done things the intended way and challenged the incumbent Warchief to Mak'gora instead of resorting to treachery. With all of them dead, Sylvanas remains the only Horde leader who respects the Blood Oath.

Holy hell, these threads are becoming dumber and dumber, it's either "Sylvanas is the worst thing since Hitler" or "Sylvanas is the absolute embodiment of Horde values", which in this case is a ridiculous statement not only because blindly obeying one guy due to a fucking oath isn't a "value" in itself but because Sylvanas never held this pseudo-value in any high regard at all, in fact she's the first Horde leader who directly disobeyed an order of Garrosh, not to mention doing it behind his back.