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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrt View Post
    He's the best candidate, I just wish he wasn't older than dirt. I'd vote for him regardless, but I hope his VP pick is solid just in case age takes its toll if he does win.
    It's funny that people love to point out he's the same age as Joe Biden, and I bring up that point because I think that's the larger problem. It isn't that Bernie is "old"... it's that Bernie LOOKS physically old. Physicaly speaking by comparison, Joe Biden stands tall, upright, is well groomed and full of energy. Bernie is stooped over in a near hunch, his hair's a bedraggled mess, and has a very dottering old man aspect to his physical actions.

    Don't get me wrong, while I would gladly vote for Bernie over Biden - I'm just saying average G-Q citizen who can't tell the difference between Bengazi from Dumbassery will just brush him off for not just old, but practically dying. >_<

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    Without Ranked Choice voting, 5 popular Sanders policies wonks can lose to a single Clintonite just due to poached votes. Let alone with the increased chances of a second round for Super Delegates to swoop in and fuck it all up anyways.
    I think you've been watching too much TYT or, heaven forbid, that dumbass inexperienced kid Kyle Kullwhatever. ;P

    On the flipside though, I do agree that I've been growing fond of that Ranked Choice system that worked in Maine recently... but I do believe the Democrat side of things isn't as "rigged" as you're making it out to be. Hell... AOC beat out a textbook "Clintonite" (what the heck is that, anyways? I'm assuming it means previous-generation Democrat?) without ranked. And the fact we've got FIVE "Sanders policy wonks" is already pretty damn amazing, with many of them (Particularly Harris and Warren) currently very popular with the Dems as a whole.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by mvaliz View Post
    I think you've been watching too much TYT or, heaven forbid, that dumbass inexperienced kid Kyle Kullwhatever. ;P

    On the flipside though, I do agree that I've been growing fond of that Ranked Choice system that worked in Maine recently... but I do believe the Democrat side of things isn't as "rigged" as you're making it out to be. Hell... AOC beat out a textbook "Clintonite" (what the heck is that, anyways? I'm assuming it means previous-generation Democrat?) without ranked. And the fact we've got FIVE "Sanders policy wonks" is already pretty damn amazing, with many of them (Particularly Harris and Warren) currently very popular with the Dems as a whole.
    Didn't know TYT talked about that. Something I have been thinking about personally.

    With our current system, you can only vote for 1 person. And if you have 5 people with overlapping views, even if they are popular, they end up poaching each other while the unique view doesn't, even if that view are logically garbage.

    So you have a handful of candidates all pushing for Medicare For All or all these things that we want and need, they poach each other, then we have Biden coming in talking about cutting Medicare and Social Security. His views would be unpopular as fuck but wouldn't be poached by any of them. And even if he only got 30% of the vote, he would still be in the top 2 or 3 because the other countless people overlapped and divided the votes.

    And if none get a majority, we are on to round 2 where the Super Delegates come into play which causes all those problems again, especially if they choose the people the public wanted the least. And you can run into accusations again.

    Not saying it is rigged, per say, I am just pointing out a huge failing in the system with so many people running on similar policies and I wonder if the rules were tweaked on Super Delegates because they knew it would happen after the last one emboldened them.
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  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    Sanders endorsed Hillary after losing the DNC. It was the BernieBros who went berserk and turned to Trump after losing the primary. Fucking idiots turned to a man who is literally the opposite of Bernie because they were upset about the primary. They either didn't really care about Bernie's positions, or they were idiots.
    The numbers I’ve seen indicate that about 10% of Bernie Sanders’ primary voters ended up voting for Trump. While this was mathematically enough to flip the election in three swing states, it is also instructive to remember that about 25% of Clinton supporters voted for McCain in 2008. Losing some of your opponent’s primary supporters to the opposing party is completely normal, however unfortunate, and Clinton actually held onto most of the Sanders supporters in 2016. I don’t know, however, how many people chose not to vote because Sanders was not in the general election.

    OT: Sanders is, in my view, the best on policy, but his age will probably be a factor with the general electorate. While many other Democrats are adopting some of the policies he’s championed, most of them don’t have the trust of Sanders’ supporters quite yet. Until his younger ideological successors come along, I will still probably vote for him in the primary. However, I think that Warren may actually be the best harmonization between the different factions of the Democratic Party.
    "We must make our choice. We may have democracy, or we may have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both."
    -Louis Brandeis

  4. #104
    Legendary! Thekri's Avatar
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    My initial argument is that Bernie is far more useful to the nation as a senator then as a president. He provides some useful ideas, and disrupts the rather stodgy political system that would prefer not to tackle the sort of more nasty problems that Bernie thrives on bringing to the foreground. Many political disrupters serve this function, and force government action on key issues. On the other hand as President, Bernie would have to actually deliver results on these ideals, and quite frankly, that is not going to happen. Bernie does not have a strong political coalition, even if the democrats control both houses of Congress (Which they likely will), he just doesn't work that well with Democrats. His policy ideas are idealistic, with no real way of implementing them or paying for them.

    If you want a good example of how this can all go horribly wrong, look no further then the VA. The entire administration is beholden to both executive and congressional oversight, which is itself thoroughly contaminated by special interests and medical lobbyists looking to make money. This entire vast mess serves to funnel money to lobbyists, which is best done through expensive buildings, medication, and medical equipment. So if you walk into a VA clinic you will find a gorgeous building, stuffed full of cutting edge equipment... and staffed by a handful of underpaid, undertrained people. The special interests don't make money on salaries. There is little to no incentive to actually take care of patients (At the Administration level), so while the individual workers are fantastic people doing the best, the overall service is a complete failure, and insanely expensive. This is what I fear from a healthcare for all. I have heard no mechanism to prevent the lobbyists and interest groups from taking it over, or indeed writing the actual policy, as they did with Obamacare. I have no problem with it in principle, it is just much easier to preach then to do.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrak View Post
    lol she aint and its funny you think she'll win this time. Right-wing dems are a joke these days.
    We all know Trump is going to win, so why even bother?

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Bryntrollian View Post
    We all know Trump is going to win, so why even bother?
    The only way Trump wins is if the Democrats throw it away AGAIN. They snatched defeat from the jaws of victory once trying to force someone unpalatable down our throats knowing they were damaged goods, god I hope they don't do that twice.

    We got Trump selling this nation, its working class, and their children's futures out for 4 years, last thing we need is their future given a proper fist fuck with 8 years of Trump.
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  7. #107
    The Normal Kasierith's Avatar
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    Sanders is on the very, very short list of people who I wouldn't vote for against Trump. And while people can and do get upset with that all they'd like... it's hardly a unique opinion. His popularity kind of plummets when you get away from online message boards and forums. And his particular brand of socialism is exactly what would help stir up Republicans and Libertarians to come out in force, and believe it or not they are a massive chunk of the country as much as people keep trying to wave that fact away.

  8. #108
    The Lightbringer Molis's Avatar
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    Someone please tell Bernie to sit this one out.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    The only way Trump wins is if the Democrats throw it away AGAIN. They snatched defeat from the jaws of victory once trying to force someone unpalatable down our throats knowing they were damaged goods, god I hope they don't do that twice.

    We got Trump selling this nation, its working class, and their children's futures out for 4 years, last thing we need is their future given a proper fist fuck with 8 years of Trump.
    We lost because folks like yourself can’t reconcile reality with the story in your ahead. I’ve alread attempted to educate you on this so I’m not going to go over it again but simply address your way way dnc was mean to bernie.

    Obama was in a worse position than Bernie. Less known, less experienced, and let’s not pretend being a Blackman didn’t drive some votes away. He won. Soundly. He ran a primarily and election campaign that was inventive and modern using big data to micro manage funds to the cent. Bernie lost before superdelegates even came into play. Bernie was most popular with the group of the population that has the worst track record of showing up to vote. Bernie. Fucked. Up.

    Honestly you’re only marginally better than the uranium’s one, pizza gate, butter emails folks.
    “Logic: The art of thinking and reasoning in strict accordance with the limitations and incapacities of the human misunderstanding.”
    "Conservative, n: A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal who wishes to replace them with others."
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    The Bird of Hermes Is My Name, Eating My Wings To Make Me Tame.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    Sanders is on the very, very short list of people who I wouldn't vote for against Trump. And while people can and do get upset with that all they'd like... it's hardly a unique opinion. His popularity kind of plummets when you get away from online message boards and forums. And his particular brand of socialism is exactly what would help stir up Republicans and Libertarians to come out in force, and believe it or not they are a massive chunk of the country as much as people keep trying to wave that fact away.
    If you dislike him, to each their own.

    Which of his policies is it that turns you off to him if you don't mind me asking?

    I also understand he brings the Republicans and Libertarians out in force, but he also brings out basically everyone else as well. And when it comes down to it, the Republicans are actually a minority of the population. Independents are the majority with something like 43% of the voters with most of them leaning left on most things with Democrats being second with something like 35%. Republicans make up about 25%.

    Republicans have the power they have now due to gerrymandering, voter disenfranchisement, the electoral college giving smaller states more power than they deserve as a compromise to get it established along with them freezing the number of seats in congress further giving those same states more power. And then you combine that with the fact that most of their voters are older and more reliable voters. Under fair laws, the Republicans wouldn't have a leg to stand on in their current state as the majority of the nation are against them.

    Heck, a good portion of the reason why the younger voter is so unreliable has plenty to do with the fact that the politicians typically don't want to give them much reason to go out and vote anyways combined with the media making sure to ignore anyone that might actually give them a reason.
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  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    Sanders is on the very, very short list of people who I wouldn't vote for against Trump. And while people can and do get upset with that all they'd like... it's hardly a unique opinion. His popularity kind of plummets when you get away from online message boards and forums. And his particular brand of socialism is exactly what would help stir up Republicans and Libertarians to come out in force, and believe it or not they are a massive chunk of the country as much as people keep trying to wave that fact away.
    Is the rest of your short list comprised of the other Dem candidates that have announced thus far? Because honestly, almost all of them have roughly the same platform Bernie did in 2016.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by shimerra View Post
    We lost because folks like yourself can’t reconcile reality with the story in your ahead. I’ve alread attempted to educate you on this so I’m not going to go over it again but simply address your way way dnc was mean to bernie.

    Obama was in a worse position than Bernie. Less known, less experienced, and let’s not pretend being a Blackman didn’t drive some votes away. He won. Soundly. He ran a primarily and election campaign that was inventive and modern using big data to micro manage funds to the cent. Bernie lost before superdelegates even came into play. Bernie was most popular with the group of the population that has the worst track record of showing up to vote. Bernie. Fucked. Up.

    Honestly you’re only marginally better than the uranium’s one, pizza gate, butter emails folks.
    Dude, I am not bothering to have that same debate again. You got your opinion that the DNC did it completely legit, fair, and impartial or that Sanders wasn't a real Democrat so it was only fair that they screw him (Depending on which one you where in that debate).

    And I got my view that it wasn't an impartial process (Which many who disagree with me still admitted to) and while the Democrats didn't owe Sanders anything, they owed the VOTERS a fair and impartial process which was spelled out in their own rules.
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  13. #113
    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    Sanders is on the very, very short list of people who I wouldn't vote for against Trump. And while people can and do get upset with that all they'd like... it's hardly a unique opinion. His popularity kind of plummets when you get away from online message boards and forums. And his particular brand of socialism is exactly what would help stir up Republicans and Libertarians to come out in force, and believe it or not they are a massive chunk of the country as much as people keep trying to wave that fact away.
    Did they? 3 states only by about 50k votes and he still lost popular vote by 3 million.

    If that is "in force" they have some issues coming in the next election as long as the Dem candidate doesn't skip some key states while campaigning.
    MMO-Champ the place where calling out trolls get you into more trouble than trolling.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    Sanders is on the very, very short list of people who I wouldn't vote for against Trump. And while people can and do get upset with that all they'd like... it's hardly a unique opinion. His popularity kind of plummets when you get away from online message boards and forums. And his particular brand of socialism is exactly what would help stir up Republicans and Libertarians to come out in force, and believe it or not they are a massive chunk of the country as much as people keep trying to wave that fact away.

    "Brand of socialism?"

    You mean the "socialism" that much of Europe has? How extreme!

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Bryntrollian View Post
    We all know Trump is going to win, so why even bother?
    He's already lost ground in the Rust Belt states that put him over in the Electoral College. And if the economy is as good as he claims it is, his approval rating is awfully low for a strong economy. Oh, and he won't get to run against Hillary again, and he won't get to be an outsider- he'll have to run on his record this time around.

    He's missing most of his advantages from 2016. Not saying he couldn't win again, but it's really not looking good for him.
    "We must make our choice. We may have democracy, or we may have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both."
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  16. #116
    The Normal Kasierith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    If you dislike him, to each their own.

    Which of his policies is it that turns you off to him if you don't mind me asking?
    There's a pretty sizable list of things I disagree with, to varying degrees. A significant one is how he approaches college. I am absolutely not in favor for simplistically making college free across the board, nor do I agree with some of his finer proposals (except for some that he took from Clinton, the two had a good deal of osmosis in the primaries so by the end they were closer to each other policy wise than at the start). I believe that it opens up the door for abuse, and is a massive slap in the face for the many, many people who worked hard to get through college while others were fucking about for four years to come out with a fine arts minor. What I am for is massive merit based scholarships for key fields, such as engineering, medical fields (especially medicine the US is having a massive HCP shortage especially in states with large Mexican immigration), and education. Opening and funding of trade schools especially for professions such as automation maintenance, PAs, law clerks. Using policy to shape direction by funding initiatives that encourage people to get into fields that are in drastic need of more people. And yes, he touched on this, but as I said more as a reaction to Clinton than anything of his own initiative.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    There's a pretty sizable list of things I disagree with, to varying degrees. A significant one is how he approaches college. I am absolutely not in favor for simplistically making college free across the board, nor do I agree with some of his finer proposals (except for some that he took from Clinton, the two had a good deal of osmosis in the primaries so by the end they were closer to each other policy wise than at the start). I believe that it opens up the door for abuse, and is a massive slap in the face for the many, many people who worked hard to get through college while others were fucking about for four years to come out with a fine arts minor. What I am for is massive merit based scholarships for key fields, such as engineering, medical fields (especially medicine the US is having a massive HCP shortage especially in states with large Mexican immigration), and education. Opening and funding of trade schools especially for professions such as automation maintenance, PAs, law clerks. Using policy to shape direction by funding initiatives that encourage people to get into fields that are in drastic need of more people. And yes, he touched on this, but as I said more as a reaction to Clinton than anything of his own initiative.
    Slight correction, Sanders didn't propose making college free across the board, he proposed making public colleges free. The private system would still be there and all, it would be forced to compete more with the public on price and quality as a cost control.

    Personally, I didn't know what to think about it either way, but I know it was cheaper than the increase we gave to the military by far which actually made me support it more.

    Also, under Sanders deal, you still have to graduate college or you owed the money back, you couldn't dick around in it, if I remember correctly.

    And I think public colleges would naturally go for the more marketable stuff than just fluff stuff, especially when they are being taxpayer funded as they want results without having a profit motive.

    But can understand your view on this as this was his major policy I was originally on the fence about myself.
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  18. #118
    The Normal Kasierith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Joe View Post
    Did they? 3 states only by about 50k votes and he still lost popular vote by 3 million.

    If that is "in force" they have some issues coming in the next election as long as the Dem candidate doesn't skip some key states while campaigning.
    You can't look at 2016 as a predictor for how 2020 will work. But yes, in general 2020 is already looking far more grim for Republicans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    Slight correction, Sanders didn't propose making college free across the board, he proposed making public colleges free. The private system would still be there and all, it would be forced to compete more with the public on price and quality as a cost control.

    Personally, I didn't know what to think about it either way, but I know it was cheaper than the increase we gave to the military by far which actually made me support it more.

    Also, under Sanders deal, you still have to graduate college or you owed the money back, you couldn't dick around in it, if I remember correctly.

    And I think public colleges would naturally go for the more marketable stuff than just fluff stuff, especially when they are being taxpayer funded as they want results without having a profit motive.

    But can understand your view on this as this was his major policy I was originally on the fence about myself.
    Yes, to clarify I did say with the finer portions of his proposals. Ultimately, I diverge with his views because he believes that the best way to encourage people to enter the market with a college degree is to remove barriers to education, where I believe that the best way is to provide economic incentives, even at private institutions, for fields of interest that are desperately needed in the country.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyrlaan View Post
    Is the rest of your short list comprised of the other Dem candidates that have announced thus far? Because honestly, almost all of them have roughly the same platform Bernie did in 2016.
    Not really. While I'm still holding the cards close to my chest in terms of who I'd support, far too many candidates on the field right now, I'd have to say I support Elizabeth Warren over the rest at this particular point in time.

  19. #119
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Hail Bernie, Glory to him and I am sure the DNC is furious and plotting to cheat him as they likely wish to do with Gabbard. The two should link arms IMHO.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  20. #120
    The Normal Kasierith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrt View Post
    "Brand of socialism?"

    You mean the "socialism" that much of Europe has? How extreme!
    If you mean the type of socialist that points at a completely different system, from the ground up, and goes "you're an evil conservative if you don't want that?" without laying out any framework for how to make such a system possible, such as the Canadian health care system which would be impossible to implement in the US with the political and bureaucratic situation as it is without doing years if not a decade of ground work? Yes.

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