The alliances attack on dazar'alor failed in their intent

[formerShandalay]

<snip>



A careless leader is not absolved of the consequences that arise as a result of his lack of care.

No, he is not and I didn't want to make it sound like I see that differently. For all the great things Rastakhan may have achieved and no matter how likeable and badass he is, at the point in time we meet him, he is a bad king. Bad for his empire and bad for the world. I still wouldn't have wanted him to die and rather they had resolved it differently, but I'm not sure if something like this is even possible within the scope of the writers or even in their intent. There's only two ways things can go if you screw up badly in Wow. Either become a raidboss and die or repent and be forgiven by the Light. Going through some soul-searching, finding out what went wrong and then actually tackle your problems and facing consequences is not an option. Oh, unless facing the consequences means you die and someone else cleans up your mess afterwards.

[Trassk]

Poor boy knows so little. Rastakhan was inept, big time, in his old age. By doing all the quests for them you see he has become a terrible leader. By putting Talanji in charge, they have not only helped the Zandalari but the Horde as a whole. She's like the Jaina Proudmoore of trolls. And not only because her father was killed by the other faction, but because she has immense power and knows how to lead. It's only because of her everything from Blood trolls to Old Gods have not taken over all of Zandalar.

Also, to OP, beware, I made a post that touches on this, and some Alliance folks seem to think their faction can do no wrong. You may end up being attacked as a person for it. (Luckily I have regeneratin', so it doesn't faze me)

seems like business as usual, the alliance fans wanting their side to be more edgy, like the horde, but then want to conveniently wash their hands of wrong doing when it suits them.Wanting their cake and eating it too.

[Magnagarde]

No, he is not and I didn't want to make it sound like I see that differently. For all the great things Rastakhan may have achieved and no matter how likeable and badass he is, at the point in time we meet him, he is a bad king. Bad for his empire and bad for the world. I still wouldn't have wanted him to die and rather they had resolved it differently, but I'm not sure if something like this is even possible within the scope of the writers or even in their intent. There's only two ways things can go if you screw up badly in Wow. Either become a raidboss and die or repent and be forgiven by the Light. Going through some soul-searching, finding out what went wrong and then actually tackle your problems and facing consequences is not an option. Oh, unless facing the consequences means you die and someone else cleans up your mess afterwards.

I think he shouldn't have died either. A well-known character wisening up and changing is always better than seeing them be killed, especially if the replacement is a freshling to the lore.

Seeing King Rastakhan appear had a lot of anticipation to itself and seeing him go this quickly into the expansion that first introduces him in the game itself is an underwhelming development in my opinion.

[Feanoro]

Rastakhan was dead the minute Princess Mushmouth appeared on the box glaring at Jaina, and one of the lead writers is an outspoken feminist who spews male hatred, but there's no agenda.

A bit more on topic, they pushed the Zandalari into the Horde's arms. Great job. They disabled their navy, which means sweet FA in a setting where writers pull any needed troops/vehicles/buildings/resources out of their collective asses at the drop of a hat. They didn't even gain a tactical advantage because Mommy Proudmoore convinced Jaina that all her screwups weren't her fault, and so she and "Let's send fruit baskets" Andy refuse to press the advantage so enemies can have time to feel sad about a king that got trashed from the word go.

[Jastall]

In reality it takes years if not decades to restock a fleet, in Wow it's mere minutes.

To be fair, when said fleet is destroyed in its port it's way easier to dredge up the wrecks and repair it than if it were lost in the middle of the ocean. It's a part of why America wasn't too badly hurt by Pearl Harbor, the sunk ships were in shallow waters right next to a whole bunch of harbors and drydocks, IE the exact equipment needed to repair or salvage them.

Still, it's highly unlikely the Zandalari fleet will play much of a part in the current conflict regardless, even if only for narrative reasons. The Alliance won an important victory that puts them in the advantage and weeks from sealing the Horde's fate on several fronts, that's nothing to sneeze at. The obligatory return of the pendulum will exist in the form of N'zoth/Azshara shenanigans.

[Trassk]

Rastakhan was dead the minute Princess Mushmouth appeared on the box glaring at Jaina, and one of the lead writers is an outspoken feminist who spews male hatred, but there's no agenda.

A bit more on topic, they pushed the Zandalari into the Horde's arms. Great job. They disabled their navy, which means sweet FA in a setting where writers pull any needed troops/vehicles/buildings/resources out of their collective asses at the drop of a hat. They didn't even gain a tactical advantage because Mommy Proudmoore convinced Jaina that all her screwups weren't her fault, and so she and "Let's send fruit baskets" Andy refuse to press the advantage so enemies can have time to feel sad about a king that got trashed from the word go.

See, this is also why, despite doing the whole quest chain on alliance side and the emotional story of Kathrine finding jaina in the blighted lands, I just couldn't get invested in the emotion of it, because I knew from that point a patch later, Jaina and her forces would be responsible for doing to Talanji what happened to her years ago in theramore with her own father.

Also, off topic, but is Christie Golden a man hating feminist? I mean I can look at the lore today and believe a feminist wrote it given how wow's been making male characters either inept or pawns, while more and more female main leaders of 'strong independent woman's' is taking over, but she wrote lord of the clans, rise of the horde, and Arthas, none of which had a man hating vibe to them.

[Feanoro]

See, this is also why, despite doing the whole quest chain on alliance side and the emotional story of Kathrine finding jaina in the blighted lands, I just couldn't get invested in the emotion of it, because I knew from that point a patch later, Jaina and her forces would be responsible for doing to Talanji what happened to her years ago in theramore with her own father.

Eh, not quite the same. Talanji called dad six kinds of fool, but didn't betray him. Talanji might feel some guilt for trash talking her father, but nothing like standing aside for his killers. The end of the Jaina questline was a huge disappointment because it completely undid all the development of realizing her mistakes and trying to correct them.

Also, off topic, but is Christie Golden a man hating feminist? I mean I can look at the lore today and believe a feminist wrote it given how wow's been making male characters either inept or pawns, while more and more female main leaders of 'strong independent woman's' is taking over, but she wrote lord of the clans, rise of the horde, and Arthas, none of which had a man hating vibe to them.

Since I don't want to derail this too far, I'll be brief. There's a large difference between fleshing out a prepared script as a contractor and writing the script itself. Besides, yes, there's some very typical propaganda in Arthas. After talking Jaina into a night of fun, Arthas panics and dumps her when she starts talking about their marriage (by that point they're already engaged) and future children. He's made to look like a complete jackass for doing so, and it's heavily implied that weakness is part of what starts him down the Darth Vad... er, DK path. I can also point out her numerous statements about "toxic masculinity" and similar buzzwords about WoW. Don't forget, Andy is her pet soyboy. Otherwise, read her Twitter feed and decide for yourself.

[korijenkins]

The Alliance attacked Dazar'alor for the same reason they attacked Taurajo.

The humans are still salty that they lost the First War so they are hellbent on punishing anyone who dares associate with orcs. Doesn't matter who they kill. Military personnel, hunters, civilians are all fair game.

Good thing Baine was there to set things straight and remind everyone that the Alliance has the moral high ground despite murdering civilians and the Horde should just surrender.

I mean, they have the moral high ground in that they didn't restart the conflict between the factions in the first place.

[Feanoro]

I mean, they have the moral high ground in that they didn't restart the conflict between the factions in the first place.

In before "But muh Stormheim, please ignore the books directly shooting that down as the cause!"

[Trassk]

Eh, not quite the same. Talanji called dad six kinds of fool, but didn't betray him. Talanji might feel some guilt for trash talking her father, but nothing like standing aside for his killers. The end of the Jaina questline was a huge disappointment because it completely undid all the development of realizing her mistakes and trying to correct them.

Since I don't want to derail this too far, I'll be brief. There's a large difference between fleshing out a prepared script as a contractor and writing the script itself. Besides, yes, there's some very typical propaganda in Arthas. After talking Jaina into a night of fun, Arthas panics and dumps her when she starts talking about their marriage (by that point they're already engaged) and future children. He's made to look like a complete jackass for doing so, and it's heavily implied that weakness is part of what starts him down the Darth Vad... er, DK path. I can also point out her numerous statements about "toxic masculinity" and similar buzzwords about WoW. Don't forget, Andy is her pet soyboy. Otherwise, read her Twitter feed and decide for yourself.

Well yeah I mean talanji came to try and save her father while jaina didn't, but also daelin was pretty much Captain Ahab, never just letting the orcs go to live out their own life, so the horde killing him was justified, where as the alliance killing rastakhan who never actually did anything to the alliance himself outside of defending his home.

[Feanoro]

The Alliance attacked Dazar'alor for the same reason they attacked Taurajo.

The humans are still salty that they lost the First War so they are hellbent on punishing anyone who dares associate with orcs. Doesn't matter who they kill. Military personnel, hunters, civilians are all fair game.

Good thing Baine was there to set things straight and remind everyone that the Alliance has the moral high ground despite murdering civilians and the Horde should just surrender.

Man, the revisionist history is strong in this one. Yes, the Horde are misunderstood, innocent little lambs, lost in a scary world that hates them for no reason. Now for the standard reply to low effort Horde outrage posts.

I mean, they have the moral high ground in that they didn't restart the conflict between the factions in the first place.

In before "But muh Stormheim, please ignore the books directly shooting that down as the cause!"

Well yeah I mean talanji came to try and save her father while jaina didn't, but also daelin was pretty much Captain Ahab, never just letting the orcs go to live out their own life, so the horde killing him was justified, where as the alliance killing rastakhan who never actually did anything to the alliance himself outside of defending his home.

Daelin had no idea about the "reformed" orcs, just that the dangerous monsters who slaughtered their way up a whole continent had violently escaped. Rastakhan isn't guiltless either. He knew what Zul was and wanted, and supplied him with ships and troops anyway.

[Hawkknight97]

Don't you mean Weaking the Zandalari Threat and also having a Victory over one of most powerful empires in the World?

It was more of Victory than a Failure in the Alliance's Part because if they didn't destroy and weaken the Zandalari. Alliance would still lose ether way.

[The Anax]

Talanji's powers aren't as immense as Jaina's and most of them come from the loa bound to her, not from her own power or knowledge. She however will lift the spirits of the Zandalari and is capable of making the necessary changes which can usher her empire into a better age.

It definitely feels good that a proper Horde-themed race is brought in with a sense of nobility, pride and royalty to itself.

True enough! OP, god-like Mary Sues are "for the Alliance!", not for us. We are more salt of the Earth, tough on our own merits. I did not mean to belittle Talanji by comparing her to Jaina like that, good catch!

[VladlTutushkin]

Wow definitely “salt” since each time Jaina is mentioned somebody in the Horde emits a “REEEEE” powerful enough to shatter bulletproof glass.

[The Anax]

Wow definitely “salt” since each time Jaina is mentioned somebody in the Horde emits a “REEEEE” powerful enough to shatter bulletproof glass.

It actually goes both ways, you should see what one Alliance guy said to me on my post where I mentioned how both the Horde AND Alliance are bad in their own ways. So, I'd say everyone has salt, see?

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post50820114

[Raelbo]

Also, off topic, but is Christie Golden a man hating feminist? I mean I can look at the lore today and believe a feminist wrote it given how wow's been making male characters either inept or pawns, while more and more female main leaders of 'strong independent woman's' is taking over, but she wrote lord of the clans, rise of the horde, and Arthas, none of which had a man hating vibe to them.

BfA is a lot more egalitarian than previous expansions. Which is a good thing. But that doesn't mean it is "man hating". Really not sure where you pull that one from. In fact I'd say that hypothesis is utterly ridiculous when you look at a group of characters like Sylvanas, Anduin, Baine and Saurfang.

[Magnagarde]

True enough! OP, god-like Mary Sues are "for the Alliance!", not for us. We are more salt of the Earth, tough on our own merits. I did not mean to belittle Talanji by comparing her to Jaina like that, good catch!

Jaina is far from being a Mary Sue. I believe that Sylvanas and Jaina are the two characters that get this wrongful qualification the most. The fact that Jaina saved iconic Alliance heroes at Lordaeron and everything else she's done in the past doesn't make her one, especially not when she has an established history of spending her entire life studying what she is now good at, with some of the very best in their own respect helping her along the way. More notably, her earliest benevolence has largely been tied to her inexperience and youth, with different experiences slowly shaping her into what she is in the present. The most notable Alliance character that seems to always get a pass for being a Gary Stu is Malfurion.

Her character is still largely being built around lore established in the RTS games, with most of her WoW development being a direct derivate of it. We will see where they will go with her story after BfA, once the knots of her past are largely untied. The writers will then have to continue writing a believable character with new motivations, without tapping into the believable personal tragedies of hers. This is where Talanji shows great promise, but also a lot of potential for disappointment because all eyes are on how she will handle her own losses, whereas Jaina has reached a resolving point in this regard.

[The Anax]

Jaina is far from being a Mary Sue. I believe that Sylvanas and Jaina are the two characters that get this wrongful qualification the most. The fact that Jaina saved iconic Alliance heroes at Lordaeron and everything else she's done in the past doesn't make her one, especially not when she has an established history of spending her entire life studying what she is now good at, with some of the very best in their own respect helping her along the way. More notably, her earliest benevolence has largely been tied to her inexperience and youth, with different experiences slowly shaping her into what she is in the present. The most notable Alliance character that seems to always get a pass for being a Gary Stu is Malfurion.

Her character is still largely being built around lore established in the RTS games, with most of her WoW development being a direct derivate of it. We will see where they will go with her story after BfA, once the knots of her past are largely untied. The writers will then have to continue writing a believable character with new motivations, without tapping into the believable personal tragedies of hers. This is where Talanji shows great promise, but also a lot of potential for disappointment because all eyes are on how she will handle her own losses, whereas Jaina has reached a resolving point in this regard.

I don't think Jaina started as a Mary Sue! Not at all! However, BfA has turned her into one. When I say it, I mean, right now. Not before. Now, on top of being a walking god she has no more development as a character since everything was handed to her this expansion. Even her mom fogave her easily and everything is just peachy keen, roses and lilacs! Jaina is the Alliance's new Wesley Crusher.

[Spichora]

Well yeah I mean talanji came to try and save her father while jaina didn't, but also daelin was pretty much Captain Ahab, never just letting the orcs go to live out their own life, so the horde killing him was justified, where as the alliance killing rastakhan who never actually did anything to the alliance himself outside of defending his home.

Daelin had his reasons for wanting all Orcs dead. His nations suffered, his son and hair killed. He was stubborn military veteran. Sure he was ruthless and sometimes cruel, but his actions where not unjust. This kind of wounds dont heal in months or years and for him, Jaina was naive young daughter, who didnt not understand.
He was not a baddie. Truly built up to morally grey character (looking at you Sylvanas).

As for Rastakhan. His story does not start in BFA, he k ew who Zul was and supplied him with ships and army, upon failing, Zul returned and Rastakhan puts him in his council. Rastakhan did not have good history with either Alliance or Horde, thanks god Talanji came to pucture and Alliance were stupid enough to get rid of Rastakhan, or I dont know how Horde would get Zandalari Fleet.

About the topic, I believe the target should have been Talanji not Rastakhan, that would engrage already not friendly Rastakhan and blame the Horde for bringing the war and death of her daughter. In any case better for Alliance have Rastakhan in charge instead of Talanji.

[Magnagarde]

Daelin had his reasons for wanting all Orcs dead. His nations suffered, his son and hair killed. He was stubborn military veteran. Sure he was ruthless and sometimes cruel, but his actions where not unjust. This kind of wounds dont heal in months or years and for him, Jaina was naive young daughter, who didnt not understand.

Daelin had no idea about the "reformed" orcs, just that the dangerous monsters who slaughtered their way up a whole continent had violently escaped. Rastakhan isn't guiltless either. He knew what Zul was and wanted, and supplied him with ships and troops anyway.

Daelin is one of the most believable and well-written characters. His nation, family and allies suffered greatly at the hands of the orcs, which lead to him not being able to forgive an orc and his kin who had done everything to save the world Daelin once helped to defend too from these very same orcs. The weight his character carries goes way beyond what most attribute him with. The fact that a father and leader seeks justice for the death of his son and the countless numbers of his people, with that justice also indirectly striking injustice at those very same people who wronged him and his people in the past, is the cornerstone of the complexity behind his story. Daelin and Kul Tiras deserved to see justice being upheld for what they've gone through, but Thrall's newly established Horde didn't deserve that as they earned their stay on Azeroth.

And yeah, Zul had official backing from the royal echelons of Zandalar. Rastakhan might've done it to get him off his back, but he's done it nontheless.