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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    I don't know what sort of narrative you're trying to create here, but working mic was never a "requirement" to joining a "progress guild", outside of (maybe) the very top. Most fights only have the raid leader and maybe couple more people speaking. Most of the time, said people can be pre-arranged to do their special roles, or can freely observe the situation and call the shots. Claiming that everyone used mics in some forgotten golden years of WoW raiding is just bullshit.
    Exactly.

    In those 'golden years' kungen raid lead nihilum by spamming /rw.

  2. #142
    just wanna add my 2 cents that i love this fight and blizz should keep doing creative things like it. i always hope that i get shrunk and yell colors.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Sezh View Post
    Mekkatorque mythic is by far the best encounter in the raid, and one of the best is recent memory. Mistakes are have dire consequences, mostly on the individual level but sometimes on the entire raid, but few mistakes end up in a certain wipe. Lots of things to keep track of, movement & positioning is key, communication essential. It's great.

    I'm not the target audience for lower difficulties so I don't have an opinion about them.
    I mean in p1 you can just outheal someone dropping his bomb in raid, you can take a buster cannon to the face if you are full hp and even fucking up the bots doesn't wipe you. Trampling a shrunk player isn't lethal either.
    The concept of the encounter is something fresh and engaging, but what they made out of it is a disappointment.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    There are so many alternatives to talking though. Use them.

    I mean what your side is arguing is that there should never be any mechanics that could be easier resolved if people use verbal communication because that is unfair to people who are shy. I guess we should stop having visual cues as well then, that's unfair to people who are blind.
    I am not arguing there should never be such mechanics, I literally said the encounter is fine. For me.

    But at the same time I have enough empathy to see that it is not fine for some players. Not everyone is the same. Telling them they don't deserve to raid isn't nice.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Dremmy View Post
    I will repeat again, hiding away from the problems rather than addressing them was far more detrimental. Nobody just gets over this an instant but literally taking the stance of "there is nothing I can do to prevent this" is absolutely the worst thing you can do.

    Also I have honestly no idea why you feel the need to correct me on my own direct life experiences. The fact that you're even trying to educate me on "how this works" is downright condescending.
    Your problem is that you are working off exclusively your own experience, and applying a black-and-white approach to boot. Yes, it worked for you. That does not make it the best approach for the general case, and your results aren't directly applicable to others.
    Taking on a challenge you're not ready for and failing is likely to make the phobia worse.

    No, you shouldn't simply take the easy way out for every challenge, but trying to take them all on head-first isn't wise, either. That's why you absolutely need to get professional help with any serious phobias, so you can figure out which challenges to take and when, and to have a safety net if it doesn't work.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Your problem is that you are working off exclusively your own experience, and applying a black-and-white approach to boot. Yes, it worked for you. That does not make it the best approach for the general case, and your results aren't directly applicable to others.
    Taking on a challenge you're not ready for and failing is likely to make the phobia worse.

    No, you shouldn't simply take the easy way out for every challenge, but trying to take them all on head-first isn't wise, either. That's why you absolutely need to get professional help with any serious phobias, so you can figure out which challenges to take and when, and to have a safety net if it doesn't work.
    If you think that the best approach for the majority of sufferers is to let them believe there is no way to control their anxiety I have absolutely no words for you.

    Also kindly stop trying to dismiss my own experience and trying to educate me on how social anxiety works. It's ignorance of astronomical levels.

    Getting wildly off topic anyway so keeping it back to WoW:

    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    I am not arguing there should never be such mechanics, I literally said the encounter is fine. For me.

    But at the same time I have enough empathy to see that it is not fine for some players. Not everyone is the same. Telling them they don't deserve to raid isn't nice.
    But the thing is it's only heroic and beyond that people that struggle with this will notice and even then there are alternatives (even if they aren't quite as effective). Honestly it's great that people empathise with these players but that should result in the community supporting those who are inconvenienced by it, not neccessarily getting Blizzard to redesign the encounter.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    Robots on Mythic are pretty much the same as Heroic, except you have half as much time, so I don't know I'd consider it that amazing. Not to mention that there are delays between colors (3rd one at least) which make the strict time limit even more annoying. If anything, dealing with polymorph/knockup and void zones is more interesting, with no real frustration added.
    It's the combination that makes it great, not a single mechanic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alphatorg View Post
    I mean in p1 you can just outheal someone dropping his bomb in raid, you can take a buster cannon to the face if you are full hp and even fucking up the bots doesn't wipe you. Trampling a shrunk player isn't lethal either.
    The concept of the encounter is something fresh and engaging, but what they made out of it is a disappointment.
    I prefer a fight with a multitude of punishing but non-lethal mechanics over a fight with a few mechanics that if fucked up by even one person results in a complete raid wipe.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I'd argue that the alternatives are as effective if not more effective. Someone can have a faulty mic or an unclear accent or some sudden background noise and lead to people having to repeat themselves. An addon or a simple set of macros can be nearly as fast yet also perfectly clear, harder to mistake, has permanence in the other player's screen. Honestly the only thing that will take a tiny bit more time is finding the other player to target them so the macros know who to whisper, after that pressing a color button to send the other player a color is arguably FASTER than saying it.
    I'd agree with that. Being in a European guild the aptitude of English varies greatly, they all know enough English to communicate the colours but you can very much hear specific individuals translating the words in their head rather than speaking it more naturally which often results in more seconds consumed during the comms. That's not a dig at them, I'd have to be a complete asshole to hold it against them, but going into Mythic mode it's something to at least consider to make sure we're saving extra second we can. In those cases we might experiment with macros and stuff just to make sure we're absolutely nailing it.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Sezh View Post
    It's the combination that makes it great, not a single mechanic.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I prefer a fight with a multitude of punishing but non-lethal mechanics over a fight with a few mechanics that if fucked up by even one person results in a complete raid wipe.
    Same, I have bad memories of Mythic Nighthold + ToS in particular. Like people blowing up the raid because of the signs in Star Augur, one missed soak in literally any encounter, etc. I like punishing mechanics but not so much so that you have to instantly wipe.

  10. #150
    I sort of get the frustration: up until a certain point, you were able to do things in a certain way and now you can't.
    On the other hand, I'm on the other end of the spectrum. When I need to coordinate and people won't talk I wanna rip their heads off - for example in Mythic+ it happens when we need properly coordinated interrupt sequences in high level Shrine or the absorb in Sethraliss.

    This reminds me of this one Challange Mode in WoD. Upper Blackrock Spire. The start packs had mobs that planted a banner that needed to be killed immediately. One of our dpses wasn't killing them and he said it was hard for him to see the banner inbetween the 20 mobs we were pulling. For the rest of us it was easy because we used nameplates addons and the banners were a different color. The player didn't use addons for personal reasons - what do you do? Do you get angry because he's holding you back or get angry Blizz didn't design the fight in a way that doesn't rely on addons.

    Anyway - what CAN you do? I know people who don't talk even though they have a working mic and even talk sometimes, but still don't really want to talk. Do you start judging people - if they have a valid reason for not doing it? Like voice issues, sleeping baby, no mic?
    At this point, I suppose heroic or above raiding isn't for them and should settle for normal. And if that normal group doesn't have even ONE man capable of talking, then LFR is the only thing left. Gaming industry evolved, not being able to talk during a raid is almost a disability.

    As a side note, I wouldn't oppose to changing things to better fit people without a mic - but you have to be aware that it's not just that one fight. Anything above dead casual requires voice nowadays.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Josuke View Post
    It wasnt sarcastic. Hey try doing a pug with a womans voice.
    I'm not sure how to tackle this without sounding like a shit person.
    I'm a woman too - a woman tank. Apparently being this kind of dominant woman attracts all sort of weirdos. I avoided talking at the start. The moment I started talking, I got so many people hitting on me with ages from 14 to 39. It was insane. I even got to the point where I got harassed and rape threatened because I didn't support a guy's application to my guild (we had been doing pvp together up to the point he decided to apply).
    It was pretty hard but in the end I started getting thick skinned and I feel like the community as a whole grew up. I also put a sort of front as a very dominant no bullshit tank, with a very serious voice, so people stopped hitting on me. If someone does, I cut them right off by ignoring them and they stop. The guild I'm in now has very decent people with a great gm and I don't feel threatened at all.
    I sometimes pug and I have no fear whatsoever of talking. I've actually made quite a few "guild friends" (guilds I help out when they don't have a tank) - and after their raid ends I sometimes spend some time on chat with them. All of them have been very civilized, no one hit on me. The only comment I've ever received in the past few years was some guy that thought I was a 12-year old boy based on my feminine voice and my role (tank) but that's all.
    So... I don't know. I think it's also a mentality thing, once you stop being afraid you'll see it's actually not that bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    The lack of empathy in some people... just because you are comfortable talking while raiding doesn't mean everyone is.
    It's not necessarily lack of empathy. It's just... how should I put this. It's an MMO - at its soul it assumes you like interacting with other people. Or the will to, even though it's hard.
    I know that a lot of peple play it as "alone together" but that doesn't mean it's any easier for me to understand. I find the game very boring and, well, bad, without the interaction and I think there are so many awesome single player games out there that I fail to see the appeal. So it's not lack of empathy, but mostly a question I can't have a pertinent answer to: which is "why are you here if you can't deal with people?". I'm obviously excluding people who don't talk because they can't, have voice issues, have babies they can't wake up, have no mic etc.
    This just might be a limiting factor on my part, the inability to understand why someone really wants to participate in group activities but fears fully participating.

  11. #151
    The cross talking kills it for me. Nothing more annoying then a bunch of people trying to make call outs at the same time. It should be two at a time, but more often. Also the mechanics are annoying a hell for melee. Run in. Run out. Run around bots. Run behind the rock. Get small and stand off in a corner doing nothing. Do anything but the damage you are supposed to be doing.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Sezh View Post
    I prefer a fight with a multitude of punishing but non-lethal mechanics over a fight with a few mechanics that if fucked up by even one person results in a complete raid wipe.
    What's the point of mythic raiding if you can simply outheal failed core mechanics and a few dead people are no biggie? It's one thing to design entry bosses like that, but in BFD this applies to the third and second to last boss and you get this very flat difficulty curve that suddenly shoots up at Jaina.

    Quote Originally Posted by Khelek View Post
    The cross talking kills it for me. Nothing more annoying then a bunch of people trying to make call outs at the same time. It should be two at a time, but more often. Also the mechanics are annoying a hell for melee. Run in. Run out. Run around bots. Run behind the rock. Get small and stand off in a corner doing nothing. Do anything but the damage you are supposed to be doing.
    I mean that's just a mistake by your raid. You need calls from two people to play any number of robots, one who calls every robot but their own and another player who calls the "leader's" colour.
    Last edited by Alphatorg; 2019-02-20 at 10:15 AM.

  13. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by burek View Post
    We are talking about a heroic boss here, not 'high-end' raids. And even if we were, what is high-end raiding? Top 10? Top 100? Because there is plenty of people in top 500 that don't use their microphones. Let alone if you look at the whole mythic (or especially heroic) raiding population.

    There was never a boss in the past 15 years which required this level of communication from everyone in the raid, so it can be kind of surprising.
    malygos 25 required tons of communication until everyone figured out how the drakes worked, i would argue that heroic 25 putricide took more communication than this boss does, sindragosa and lich king both took immense communication, so no i don't think it's the most 'communication intensive' fight ever seen, not even close, and if you aren't willing to communicate in a TEAM BASED game mode, then you shouldn't be in that game mode.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Alphatorg View Post
    What's the point of mythic raiding if you can simply outheal failed core mechanics and a few dead people are no biggie? It's one thing to design entry bosses like that, but in BFD this applies to the third and second to last boss and you get this very flat difficulty curve that suddenly shoots up at Jaina.
    Have you killed Mekkatorque? If so, how many wipes did your team have?

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I am fairly certain there is an addon already. It pops up an extra panel with the 5 colors when you get in the robot, you target the player you want and then just push the buttons and it whispers them what to push. Can get any easier than that. Only difference in utility from voicecoms is that it would be much harder and more prone to error to try and communicate the code to two different people at the same time.
    Yea I've heard about the addon a few times but I'll admit I haven't really looked into it much. I might install it this week and see how it is, if it's as you say then it might be worth recommending to some guildies to at least try and see if it helps. Cheers for the suggestion though.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Sezh View Post
    Have you killed Mekkatorque? If so, how many wipes did your team have?
    My guild had around 50 wipes, there was a lot of clowning going on.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Alphatorg View Post
    My guild had around 50 wipes, there was a lot of clowning going on.
    Seems like a properly tuned encounter to me. But yes, I agree that the difficulty curve overall is fucked with way too easy bosses in the middle and second to last.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    malygos 25 required tons of communication until everyone figured out how the drakes worked, i would argue that heroic 25 putricide took more communication than this boss does, sindragosa and lich king both took immense communication, so no i don't think it's the most 'communication intensive' fight ever seen, not even close, and if you aren't willing to communicate in a TEAM BASED game mode, then you shouldn't be in that game mode.
    Spare me that bullshit about 'golden years'. I have done all those fights in a guild where less than half of the people used a microphone. It was just the raid leader yelling, and some other guy singing. That was 10 years ago, microphones were not as common as they are now. I didn't even have a set of headphones, was listening through speakers. Simply because no other game i played before that required any of that, and neither did WoW.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Sezh View Post
    Seems like a properly tuned encounter to me. But yes, I agree that the difficulty curve overall is fucked with way too easy bosses in the middle and second to last.
    I think it's fairly bad. You have no feeling of progressing the encounter. You do a couple of pulls and then it's "ok, you've seen the whole encounter, you know what to do. Just play heroic mechanics and he's dead". There's no figuring out stuff, no challenging moment, no depth to the encounter - just "don't be retarded", which also makes every death and every wipe feel super annoying and the eventual kill hollow.
    Last edited by Alphatorg; 2019-02-20 at 11:38 AM.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Alphatorg View Post
    I think it's fairly bad. You have no feeling of progressing the encounter. You do a couple of pulls and then it's "ok, you've seen the whole encounter, you know what to do. Just play heroic mechanics and he's dead". There's no figuring out stuff, no challenging moment, no depth to the encounter - just "don't be retarded", which also makes every death and every wipe feel super annoying and the eventual kill hollow.
    The progress imo is from feeling overwhelmed by all different mechanics at first and as you wipe you eventually learn the patterns and suddenly overlaps you found difficult are easy to dodge and you weave between mechanics like a dancer.

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