reconstructed

[Feanoro]

Really? Because Horde characters seem to either obey or ignore their Warchief and never really confer or advice him, while the Alliance leadership constantly interacts and advises each other.

Yes, really, considering they're supposed to be faceless minions to the all powerful dictator warchief. Instead, they talk back, ignore, do their own thing, take liberties with their orders, like an alliance would. As it is, you see cut scenes with all Horde leaders present, listening to Sylvie's nasal sneering.

Alliance somehow got the blue warchief, aka high king, because they don't give a shit about our leaders. At most, you seen Andy agonizing about whether the Horde will accept his Valentine's cards, Greymane kissing his ass, and Jaina unable to make up her damn mind. The other leaders make cameos at best (Dwarves are AWOL, Mekkatorque does the first thing in fifteen years only to become a gnome-sicle, etc). Everything has to be run past the simpering blue warchief though.

[Super Dickmann]

"the Horde hierarchy system has not changed -only modified- since WC1, even when Thrall of Vol'jin in power." is baloney. Thrall founded a new faction that was "The Horde" ran by the demons in name only.

Even the Blood Oath seems an abandoned concept, completely discarded following MOP where they realized that blind, unflinching oaths of loyalty can be abused. It's literally never been mentioned again since that expansion.

Thrall didn't found shit. He was passed the Warchief mantle by Orgrim, whereupon he procedeed with what Orgrim was doing already. He kept all iconography, named stuff after its heroes, kept the power structure of absolute power to the Warchief and so on. The Horde underwent no institutional reform at any point.

The New Horde is a meme. It doesn't really exist. There's direct continuity from Blackhand to Orgrim to Thrall. There isn't between the final Warchief of that Horde, Garrosh, and Vol'jin's, but it hardly matters since Vol'jin's Horde is identical to the other ones as well.

[Dagoth Ur]

Thrall didn't found shit. He was passed the Warchief mantle by Orgrim, whereupon he procedeed with what Orgrim was doing already. He kept all iconography, named stuff after its heroes, kept the power structure of absolute power to the Warchief and so on. The Horde underwent no institutional reform at any point.

The New Horde is a meme. It doesn't really exist. There's direct continuity from Blackhand to Orgrim to Thrall. There isn't between the final Warchief of that Horde, Garrosh, and Vol'jin's, but it hardly matters since Vol'jin's Horde is identical to the other ones as well.

Man, for reasons like this I really want for us to get a window at how Orgrim ran things during the Orc's heritage armour questline. They could show the period where he and Thrall ransacked the interment camps and Thrall was made Warchief. Or that moment in between Orgrim taking the title from Blackhand where he decided that this was not what Horde's supposed to be about.

It just fits so much in the context of what Blizzard's trying to do with the Horde now and we'd get a glimpse at Orgrim as bonus. It'd also clear the whole Thrall & New Horde confusion.

Extra bonus if set ends up being inspired by Doomplate armour.

[Dagoth Ur]

I get that heritage is about the past but I would far rather the heritage scenarios were about how the past will lead us to the future instead of just wasting one of the few opportunities to expand racial lore in order to just see the past like with the blood elves.

You have anything specific in mind? I mean that could work too, since orcs are probably the race that could learn the most by reflecting on their roid rage past!

[Super Dickmann]

Man, for reasons like this I really want for us to get a window at how Orgrim ran things during the Orc's heritage armour questline. They could show the period where he and Thrall ransacked the interment camps and Thrall was made Warchief. Or that moment in between Orgrim taking the title from Blackhand where he decided that this was not what Horde's supposed to be about.

It just fits so much in the context of what Blizzard's trying to do with the Horde now and we'd get a glimpse at Orgrim as bonus. It'd also clear the whole Thrall & New Horde confusion.

Extra bonus if set ends up being inspired by Doomplate armour.

I'd love to get Orgrim's armor as the orc heritage armor. In fact, I have no idea what else it could be. Maybe something like Thrall's WoD armor combining it with a shaman look? I actually really like that design.

As for Orgrim, my impression is that his end goal was similar to Thrall's in that he wanted it to be shamanic, but he viewed redemption as a more positive process than a negative one. As in, I doubt he'd put the orcs to live in a desert.

If we're going to be stuck with Green Jesus having him reconnect with the guy who gave him the title and remember that you have to both be a nice dude and to defend your interests and be able to get your hands dirty would make it palatable.

[Dagoth Ur]

I'd love to get Orgrim's armor as the orc heritage armor. In fact, I have no idea what else it could be. Maybe something like Thrall's WoD armor combining it with a shaman look? I actually really like that design.

That'd actually make me want to play my old-school green orc again, who's kinda been neglected ever since Mag'har came out.

As for Orgrim, my impression is that his end goal was similar to Thrall's in that he wanted it to be shamanic, but he viewed redemption as a more positive process than a negative one. As in, I doubt he'd put the orcs to live in a desert.

If we're going to be stuck with Green Jesus having him reconnect with the guy who gave him the title and remember that you have to both be a nice dude and to defend your interests and be able to get your hands dirty would make it palatable.

I'd accept back that version of Thrall in a heartbeat. I mean just look at how much post-Thrall-return problems it would fix:
- Intentional message wouldn't be: "Thrall was right all along you dipshits", it would be how Thrall actually learned something which he was desperately lacking before. Which is as you said:

you have to both be a nice dude and to defend your interests and be able to get your hands dirty

- Horde would finally find the healthy middleground that could potentially encompass most of it's races without perverting their core identities. It'd still be muhHonor but not that unbearable variant Baine and Saufang are trying to push

- We could finally go on without switching warchiefs and rebelling on annual basis

[Dagoth Ur]

I would want the entrance of the Draenor Mag'har to the Horde to rekindle clan pride.
Think about it, the entire point of WoD was to use the diversity of theme in the orcish Horde (and it did so reasonably well, they just should have gone all in instead of fearing orc fatigue so much). The Mag'har probably all think highly of their clans and the limited number of them that crossed the portal will try to connect with clan members in Orgrimmar only to find there is no real clan structure anymore.
So we could have a scenario about the hero traveling around Azeroth and Outland to collect the clan elders and leaders for a council to discuss the future. We'd instantly expand the roster of orcs that matter (they are all out there, they just haven't done anything in forever). It also makes sense since it is unclear who represents the Orcs to the warchief now that Saurfang is gone (Cromush I guess, who is not even a Horde orc, he is Mag'har or is it Eitrigg of all people?) so they could gather up to decide who would speak for them to the Warchief ; could be Ariok, could be Jorin, Rehgar, Nazgrel or even a chance to bring Thrall back.

I like that idea too. I've been proponent of bringing back some of the forgotten orc characters like Drek'thar and young Mag'har from Garadar like Jorin for a while now. Getting some semblance of clan identities back could be interesting too.

Only negative thing I'm gonna point out is the severe lack of Orgrim Doomhammer in it! I think reflecting on those times would be too good of a message to pass up considering what Horde's going through at the moment.

[steelballfc]

Thrall didn't found shit. He was passed the Warchief mantle by Orgrim, whereupon he procedeed with what Orgrim was doing already. He kept all iconography, named stuff after its heroes, kept the power structure of absolute power to the Warchief and so on. The Horde underwent no institutional reform at any point.

The New Horde is a meme. It doesn't really exist. There's direct continuity from Blackhand to Orgrim to Thrall. There isn't between the final Warchief of that Horde, Garrosh, and Vol'jin's, but it hardly matters since Vol'jin's Horde is identical to the other ones as well.

thank you
i was going to write something but you nailed it

[Dagoth Ur]

I agree that Orgrim is great. I think a Saurfang & Thrall meeting could involve reminiscing about Orgrim. I think they probably will do it with the heritage armor though since I just don't see them actually moving the plot forward with those scenarios, that'd be work for the narrative team !!!
I really wonder what we will do in the TAUREN heritage armor questline That's the one that is next right?

Yeah. Think they even showed how it'll look like on some slide somewhere iirc.

Same as how I wish to see Orgrim in orc's one, I hope we'll see Cairne in tauren one. If we're to go "flashback" route, I suspect it'll be something back from War3 when Thrall and Cairne met. I think Tauren out of all the races need to be reminded of why they "fell in love" with idea of the Horde in the first place.

[Super Dickmann]

I think Saurfang has the most positive view of redemption for the orcs. Redemption for a race of warriors that doomed their world is for them to become self-sacrificing defenders of their new world which is what they DID; Thrall was a leader in the fight against Archimonde, the Might of Kalimdor was orc-led and crushed the Qiraji, the orcs were on the forefront of the fight against the Scourge and the Twilight Hammer. Redemption and glory in death by fighting for the good of all. The orcs would be the backbone of the armies of Azeroth against every external threat. Of course for that to happen, they also need to be supported so as not to starve to death and have their sacrifice for a world that is not even theirs recognized.

I disagree. There is too much focus on redemption as an entirely outward pursuit. Saurfang's view, if this is it, which I'm not entirely convinced since it's put through the lens of his own vision, is based entirely on a warrior identity. As you note in the final part, it'd involve the orcs being sustained by support from the others. It runs counter to what Thrall and Orgrim knew. They were both statesmen in the sense that they thought about what land would be arable later, where they could settle, and a post-war existence. Thrall also knew this, he settled on Durotar in spite of this. Hell, even Garrosh talks about a post-war existence and cares about the sustainability of his people. The version you propose here could be a portion of the orcish identity, a way to recontextualize its warrior roots, but it's even more guaranteed to fall apart than what Thrall did because of how it disregards the need to create a functioning society.

@Dagoth Ur

The tauren one can be about Baine going on a spirit quest to attain a pair of balls and have them blessed by the Earthmother.

[Super Dickmann]

I am not sure that any living orc knows of an orc identity that was not based on warriors. My understanding is that aside from maybe the Shadowmoon, the other orc clans were constantly evading ogre slavers and lived primarily as raiders. They did not seem to have had an aggrarian society; they were either raiders or hunter gatherers.

Oh, that's true. My point is rather that a warrior society based around protecting other people while the civilian component relies on handouts because they live in a desert is even worse than Thrall's Horde and would gin up resentment immediately. Fighting tentacle monsters on the other end of the planet for humans while Masha and the eight kids starve doesn't pay the bills.

[Super Dickmann]

Well yes, which is why I mention specifically RECOGNITION. This is why Saurfang could get angry at the Alliance and were we could have an inversion and a new orc identity that actually cares about honor and the rewards of keeping it.

See Garrosh simply demanded land for the orcs to live on and was willing to claim it by force. Saurfang could evolve his position; he does not demand land by force, he demands it by right for the sacrifice of countless of orcs. Kalimdor belongs to the orcs as much as it does to the Night Elves because the orcs bled as well to keep it free from bugs and demons. In that way, while Garrosh' claim was imperialist, Saurfang's becomes righteous. The Horde's demand for lebensraum is no longer about might makes right but about a honorable defender getting his due. Instead of "strong people can claim whatever they see" it's "respect our troops". It is just so much easier to sell the latter

What you're describing is what happened before Cataclysm. The orcs had already fought the Burning Legion, saved the tauren and the trolls, they'd saved a bunch of people from the ass end of nowhere and let them into the Horde with the guarantee that they'd protect them if they were attacked. They fought in Ahn'Qiraj, they helped at the Sunwell and then the Lich King. And what was the gain of this? Nothing. The trolls had their island and could stop caring. The tauren had a rich land that they might even be able to protect were they not lead by Baine. Humans and night elves were fine. But the orcs themselves had nothing going for them. More than that, they had a war declared on them on the basis of what one of their allies - the Forsaken had done. The night elves cut imports over a false flag. The orcish pre-Cata experience was doing everything they could to solve other people's problems while they themselves got the shaft.

And that was under Thrall, the arch-appeaser, not Garrosh. Whoever took over after him who wanted the land to sustain the orcs, as he was obligated to do as their leader, would have to do it by force. It's not like the night elves would go "Damn, you're right, here, have half of our ancestral homeland ".

[Super Dickmann]

I know, what I am saying is, change the messaging.

And I really still think they should just pack and move to Feralas.

Also night elf land. Just slightly less so post-Cataclysm.

Whoever succeeded Thrall was going to have their hands full. Garrosh took the right approach, but from a pure motivational standpoint, his allies were already set up too well and could afford not to give a shit.

[Super Dickmann]

All Kalimdor is Night Elf land. But the Night Elves will die for Ashenvale. Will they die for some scouting outposts in Feralas? Doubtful.

At that point, I think so. I mean, the Horde and Alliance were already at war, and that false flag had them pissed. This was before Varian had his personality transplant you have to remember, so war'd still be guaranteed.

[Super Dickmann]

Well our entire discussion seems to be based on "what could be if the story was not retarded".

That's one AU that we're not prepared for.

Supposing hypothetical AU Garrosh had allies that weren't ready to backstab him because he gently tussled the hair of a night elf while Mankrik and his wives were starving and told Gazlowe to plant the funds there, they might be able to pull off settling in Feralas before the night elves build a bigger fortress there.

[Aucald]

Thrall didn't found shit. He was passed the Warchief mantle by Orgrim, whereupon he procedeed with what Orgrim was doing already. He kept all iconography, named stuff after its heroes, kept the power structure of absolute power to the Warchief and so on. The Horde underwent no institutional reform at any point.

The New Horde is a meme. It doesn't really exist. There's direct continuity from Blackhand to Orgrim to Thrall. There isn't between the final Warchief of that Horde, Garrosh, and Vol'jin's, but it hardly matters since Vol'jin's Horde is identical to the other ones as well.

Except for a renewed focus on the Shamanism and ancestor worship the pre-Horde clans were known for. Thrall didn't really alter the hierarchy or power structure of the Horde, no; except from de-emphasizing the clan structure yet further over time. But his main credit is for the restoration of the Orcs' spiritual center - an attempt to atone for their actions as slaves of the Legion in a variety of ways. He also worked to relocate the Horde and founded a city for them in a new land.

[Super Dickmann]

Except for a renewed focus on the Shamanism and ancestor worship the pre-Horde clans were known for. Thrall didn't really alter the hierarchy or power structure of the Horde, no; except from de-emphasizing the clan structure yet further over time. But his main credit is for the restoration of the Orcs' spiritual center - an attempt to atone for their actions as slaves of the Legion in a variety of ways. He also worked to relocate the Horde and founded a city for them in a new land.

These aren't institutional changes. These were ideological and cultural changes. And many of them were in the process of being done by Orgrim. The clans, except the Warsong and Frostwolves, were already destroyed by 20 years of internment camps. Orgrim's endgoal of winning the Second War was to build a new home for the orcs in the lands he conquered where they would revert to shamanism. He maintained that goal once he was Warchief again and passed that goal onto Thrall.

The things that Thrall did that were not direct continuations of Orgrim's agenda was leaving EK by Medivh's suggestion, settling in a desert and establishing accord with humans that Orgrim couldn't have because he never met them.

@Nymrohd

PM me some highlights if you can, this sounds interesting.

[Aucald]

I think clan structure was de-emphasised mainly be virtue of the elders almost all being dead. There was only a scant few that still understood what the clans stood for. The one clan that did survive whole, the Frostwolves, had a strong clan identity still.

True, although based on conversations in Orgrimmar there seemed to be a concerted effort to de-emphasize the clan structure - a Shattered Hand NPC talks about it during the Rogue leveling quests. The Frostwolves also don't have any representation or iconography present (aside from the Doomhammer itself) in Orgrimmar proper - which I guess scans, as the Horde has moved on from being focused solely on the Orcs and now embraces multiple cultures. Trying to make Orcish culture dominant beyond Orgrimmar being an Orcish city might be badly received.

- - - Updated - - -

These aren't institutional changes. These were ideological and cultural changes. And many of them were in the process of being done by Orgrim. The clans, except the Warsong and Frostwolves, were already destroyed by 20 years of internment camps. Orgrim's endgoal of winning the Second War was to build a new home for the orcs in the lands he conquered where they would revert to shamanism. He maintained that goal once he was Warchief again and passed that goal onto Thrall.

The things that Thrall did that were not direct continuations of Orgrim's agenda was leaving EK by Medivh's suggestion, settling in a desert and establishing accord with humans that Orgrim couldn't have because he never met them.

That is pretty much what I said, yes. Orgrim wasn't a Shaman, though; and while he rejected outright demon worship (which many Orcs seemed to have fallen into at the closing days of the Second War) he had his hands busy trying to keep the Orcish survivors of the Second War alive and wasn't able to do much in the cultural sense. Orgrim's goal was indeed that but he died early on in the struggle, passing both the mantle and the responsibility of his own dream on to Thrall. It was Thrall who realized said dream - rounding up the last of the Orcs by freeing them from internment, taking down the main threat the Horde faced (Blackmoore) in the Eastern Kingdoms, and finally leading the remaining Orcs across the sea to found Durotar. That's a lot of progress to imply he did nothing, and the concept of founding an entire new nation includes a lot of institutional work even if you don't change hierarchies or government.

[steelballfc]

True, although based on conversations in Orgrimmar there seemed to be a concerted effort to de-emphasize the clan structure - a Shattered Hand NPC talks about it during the Rogue leveling quests. The Frostwolves also don't have any representation or iconography present (aside from the Doomhammer itself) in Orgrimmar proper - which I guess scans, as the Horde has moved on from being focused solely on the Orcs and now embraces multiple cultures. Trying to make Orcish culture dominant beyond Orgrimmar being an Orcish city might be badly received.

- - - Updated - - -



That is pretty much what I said, yes. Orgrim wasn't a Shaman, though; and while he rejected outright demon worship (which many Orcs seemed to have fallen into at the closing days of the Second War) he had his hands busy trying to keep the Orcish survivors of the Second War alive and wasn't able to do much in the cultural sense. Orgrim's goal was indeed that but he died early on in the struggle, passing both the mantle and the responsibility of his own dream on to Thrall. It was Thrall who realized said dream - rounding up the last of the Orcs by freeing them from internment, taking down the main threat the Horde faced (Blackmoore) in the Eastern Kingdoms, and finally leading the remaining Orcs across the sea to found Durotar. That's a lot of progress to imply he did nothing, and the concept of founding an entire new nation includes a lot of institutional work even if you don't change hierarchies or government.

we kind of dancing around, my original point, the Core structure of the WC1 horde is no different from BFA Horde.

[Super Dickmann]

That is pretty much what I said, yes. Orgrim wasn't a Shaman, though; and while he rejected outright demon worship (which many Orcs seemed to have fallen into at the closing days of the Second War) he had his hands busy trying to keep the Orcish survivors of the Second War alive and wasn't able to do much in the cultural sense. Orgrim's goal was indeed that but he died early on in the struggle, passing both the mantle and the responsibility of his own dream on to Thrall. It was Thrall who realized said dream - rounding up the last of the Orcs by freeing them from internment, taking down the main threat the Horde faced (Blackmoore) in the Eastern Kingdoms, and finally leading the remaining Orcs across the sea to found Durotar. That's a lot of progress to imply he did nothing, and the concept of founding an entire new nation includes a lot of institutional work even if you don't change hierarchies or government.

Thrall did accomplish what Orgrim aimed at. But what I'm getting at is that were it in Orgrim's power, he would have implemented many of the things Thrall did, because he is the originator of these ideas for Thrall. It's not so much that he did nothing, but that he wasn't a revolutionary figure with never before seen ideas when his predecessor had already laid a lot of the groundwork.

I also disagree with the idea that demon worship was widespread in the Second War Horde. Chronicle 2 makes clear that warlocks were excluded and the orcs were overwhelmingly against Gul'dan and the Shadow Council. It's only after the Second War that the Blackrocks picked it back up again. The Blood Curse is often a bit overstated on these forums. It needed to be refurbished by drinking the blood, and Thrall and his followers were unaffected and still able to fight Mannoroth despite being bound by it. The orcs were not slaves in the Second War, nor were the unable to set up a mostly demon-free society if they won.