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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    I mean they aren't wrong. There are people on this forum and they know who they are who absolutely think the game and Blizzard can do no wrong.

    Not to say there aren't people on the other end of the spectrum either but well...

    And to be fair most of the Ghostbusters reboot fanboying consists of the low rate stupidity of "IF YOU HATED THE MOVIE YOU A MISOGNYST REEEEE".... but that's for a different topic.

    And quite frankly while I don't agree with the flat out bashing this expansion has been dreadfully handled and from what I see it's clear the team has zero passion for their projects anymore. Except maybe the sound and art teams.

    The game focuses more on crappy metrics like "time played" rather than an enjoyable experience and that's why there's been a good chunk of people moving to other games or quitting outright with this expansion. Anecdotal evidence I know but from what I've seen it seems like a fair few. And no I don't mean "hurr WoW has 500k subs left" either.
    Extreme dogmatic positions tend to push people to the opposite pole ... at least in the arguments they make if not their actual thoughts. I think that's just kind of basic psychology. Internet forums don't tend to attract participation from people who are generally moderate. I don't see a lot of posting that would be consistent with the idea that the WoW team is genuinely passionate and talented but quite a few of their core ideas for this expansion just missed the mark. To say "BfA is disappointing to this point but let's not shit on the people trying to make content that we would enjoy" would be a perspective we don't really see here.

    I'm pretty sure I could find about 1,000 examples just from today where people have posted utter nonsense about how Blizzard's intentions are evil or their competence is nonexistent or other similar rubbish. I do think there are some who work too hard to counter these ideas but I do not generally interpret those posts as much "Blizzard can do no wrong" as I do "that's not a fair criticism".

    You're really doing the same thing I'm talking about right here. I highly doubt you know anyone on the WoW team to be able to say they have "zero passion for their projects" and I think it is a logically absurd position. It's a company that wants to make money and they have a valuable property that only stays valuable with continued success, why the hell would they hire people who don't give a shit? That makes no sense. In any case, I do know people on the WoW team and I can say with great confidence that you're completely wrong. Despite what armchair developers think, it is quite possible to be fully invested in your work and deliver something that just doesn't pan out.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Aftermathhqt View Post
    I don't understand people that can be so against changes. Does people really want the game to stand still forever and never evolve?
    So things changes, everything changes. I do enjoy every expansion because they are different, not every may had the best systems.
    But i like when the developers are going out of their comfort zone and try new things and new systems, and not just stay in the past.
    i agree 100% ... IF

    - the changes are not solely based on „how to make more money“
    - it does not decrease the product quality
    - it is based on player feedback
    - it is for the greater good for the game instead for saving investment
    - changes are well thought instead mindless quick fixes

    then... YES

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    It is not how I recall it.

    What I recall (from threads on this forum) is: "I was benched, because somebody who is a worse player than I am got his BiS legendary by pure luck"

    Also: BiS (or certain) legendaries changed your rotation to something that made your class / specc superior

    Also: Some mage tower challenges were only possibly with BiS legendaries

    etc
    exactly. rose tinted glasses obviously become available the faster the more next xpac sucks

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
    Some mage towers were only possible with BiS legendaries?

    What a complete and utter lie.


    All Mage Towers were completeable insanely easily by:

    A) Not being a completely terrible player. (rare these days as target audience for pruning and dumbing down the game is awful players.)

    B) Completely and easily outgearing it through free RNG lootbox Argunite gear on Argus.


    Just because you are bad. Does not mean you required a legendary for ANY mage tower.

    You are completely right about the Legendaries in raids though.

    They were a dogshit ACQUISITION design that Ion the fuckstain denied was bad until 7.3.5 when they added a vendor.
    He's referring to posts made months before the MT challenges were made obsolete. And I remember those posts very well myself.

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaito92 View Post
    The acquisiton of Legendaries were critizied
    Nobody (as in nobody sane nor a large ammount people) disliked the effects of legendaries, which were gameplay defininig. They pruned that out to give you the outer azerite ring that gives you 5 % passive dmg. Top kek. Sure really smart and responsive from blizz!
    I mean to be fair it's common knowledge that the design team hasn't known what to do in terms of making an exciting system for a while.

    Artifacts were good but definitely not exciting once you were just spending a point to get 300 more of the stat proc.

    The current systems are about keeping you subbed rather than being enjoyable. There's no passion put into them.
    Last edited by Eleccybubb; 2019-02-21 at 12:53 AM.

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    1. warfronts
    2. allied races
    3. split storylines
    4. old world scaling
    5. islands
    6. azerite neck instead of artifact
    7. remove titanforging from 7 slots
    8. made old world relevent again with warfronts
    9. mythic plus rework with the new seasonal affixes
    10. pvp weekies+ "vendor"
    those are what i can think of right now.
    Split storylines aren't a feature. Old world scaling wasn't a feature of BfA. The azerite necklace is functionally the same as the weapon aside from the actual interesting parts. Point 8 is literally just warfronts again. Mythic plus changes were widely considered worse than Legion. PvP changes are an absolute shitshow that nobody likes, so I guess yeah, that's a change.

    Compared to like, literally every other expansion this is just a shallow reflection of Legion. Even the points you listed are straw grasps.

  6. #186
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irian View Post
    Split storylines aren't a feature. Old world scaling wasn't a feature of BfA. The azerite necklace is functionally the same as the weapon aside from the actual interesting parts. Point 8 is literally just warfronts again. Mythic plus changes were widely considered worse than Legion. PvP changes are an absolute shitshow that nobody likes, so I guess yeah, that's a change.

    Compared to like, literally every other expansion this is just a shallow reflection of Legion. Even the points you listed are straw grasps.
    split storylines is a feature, storylines that you choose the outcome of and it effects what you do in the story.
    yes... old world scaling i forgot that it was 7.3.5 sorry
    point 8 is about the old worlds being made relevent with new quests and dailies there, while point 1 was the actual warfronts themselves.
    uhh what, mythic plus changes were widely considered worse then legion? you serious, can you show me how people HATE reaping more then in legions nothing?
    pvp changes are far better then legions ABSOLUTE RNG shitshow for pvp.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    My ideas are objectively good

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by Aftermathhqt View Post
    I don't understand people that can be so against changes... But i like when the developers are going out of their comfort zone and try new things and new systems, and not just stay in the past.
    Hypothetically, if you are assembling a helicopter and attach airplane wings instead of rotary wings on the top, do you think this change is going our of "comfort zone" or poor design?

  8. #188
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaito92 View Post
    -Break perfectly fine system (legion)
    -Make it less shit, while being still shit, people list as a positive [bfa]

    You need to escape from Ion the ratfanger melody
    ...
    if legion broke the pvp system
    and BFA made it better
    why is it BFA's fault, and not legions?
    yes if BFA fixes something legion fucked up, that is a positive.
    fixing something another expansion fucked up does not suddenly make it a negitive, because its not as good as it was before the first expansion fucked it up.
    Last edited by FelPlague; 2019-02-21 at 01:27 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    My ideas are objectively good

  9. #189
    This game is AIDS these days. Sorry you cant take someone talkin' shit.
    I was a Death's Demise.
    Those were the good old days.

  10. #190
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaito92 View Post
    its make both of them bad, simply as that
    its like arguin which slave keeper is better
    except it makes one better...
    you cant say "legion and BFA pvp are the exact same" then shut down "no they arnt" as "well they arnt, but it isnt perfect, so they are!"
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    My ideas are objectively good

  11. #191
    Maybe if Blizzard started producing a good game again there would be less negativity.. how about that?

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    It is not how I recall it.

    What I recall (from threads on this forum) is: "I was benched, because somebody who is a worse player than I am got his BiS legendary by pure luck"

    Also: BiS (or certain) legendaries changed your rotation to something that made your class / specc superior

    Also: Some mage tower challenges were only possibly with BiS legendaries

    etc
    Which is why i said the lego itself isnt the issue - this is in NO WAY UNIQUE TO LEGOS and has happened with trinkets and weapons in the past. What was unique, is that we had ZERO control over what lego we got - we couldnt target certain content or certain bosses to increase our chance of getting these op items, and we certainly couldn't farm a currency to purchase particular ones (until VERY late in the expac - and this happened directly because of the feedback blizzard recieved. it was not "we hate legos and they are dumb" (which you suggest) but rather "we hate not being able to target the legos we want/need"

    those are two different problems. If you took the time to read my previous post, i already addressed this. Also, the mage tower thing is absolutely 100% false in every possible way. You are completely wrong about that one. Name a single MT that was IMPOSSIBLE (not just harder, but impossible) without a certain item for all of Legion. Take your time, and dont bother shifting to goal posts, you made a very bold statement - either back it up, or admit it was wrong.

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    except it makes one better...
    you cant say "legion and BFA pvp are the exact same" then shut down "no they arnt" as "well they arnt, but it isnt perfect, so they are!"
    Well thats nothing but a whole mess of word salad.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by subsidalos View Post
    Maybe if Blizzard started producing a good game again there would be less negativity.. how about that?
    NO, its the players how are wrong, not Blizzard. Obviously.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    ...
    if legion broke the pvp system
    and BFA made it better
    why is it BFA's fault, and not legions?
    yes if BFA fixes something legion fucked up, that is a positive.
    fixing something another expansion fucked up does not suddenly make it a negitive, because its not as good as it was before the first expansion fucked it up.
    i THINK (i honestly could be wrong) that what they are trying to say is that not enough was done - granted, they didnt double down and make it worse, but the fixes put in place only went part way to addressing the concerns from legion - so they are complaining about the lack of action, rather than the action itself.

  14. #194
    Let me share a true story.

    I used to love going to this Thai restaurant for beef green curry. It tasted so good. The restaurant eventually changed the ingredients they used to make the green curry and ended up making a worse (less tasty) product. Why did they change the ingredients? Well, they used to make their own curry paste from scratch but then decided to use pre-made curry pastes (which were likely cheaper $$ and required less time to prepare). So, in order to make more money (by using a cheaper product that takes less time to prepare) they ended up ruining their beef green curry. I no longer buy my beef green curry at that shop.
    Blood elves are our high elves - Chris Metzen

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    split storylines is a feature, storylines that you choose the outcome of and it effects what you do in the story.
    yes... old world scaling i forgot that it was 7.3.5 sorry
    point 8 is about the old worlds being made relevent with new quests and dailies there, while point 1 was the actual warfronts themselves.
    uhh what, mythic plus changes were widely considered worse then legion? you serious, can you show me how people HATE reaping more then in legions nothing?
    pvp changes are far better then legions ABSOLUTE RNG shitshow for pvp.
    And split storylines literally aren't even a feature for Alliance players, and even for Horde so far they're not much at all. That's not a feature. It's one choice in a quest that might change the outcome of events slightly for one faction. Other games have been doing it for years, one minor branching detail is not going to earn WoW any accolades. If you think having a choice that makes a story difference is a big detail worth noting then you've been playing WoW too long and need to properly experience what games that actually give a shit about their story can offer.

    Zone revamps are irrelevant. There's nothing to do in those zones. Sure it's nice they look better now but otherwise they're fundamentally the same.

    And I quit before Reaping but I know Infested was absolutely riddled with bugs and the trash-heavy nature of M+ dungeons made it a nightmare. I can tell you that infested was an absolute nightmare that generally saw many dungeons just not done during its weeks.

    These aren't really notable expansion features. These are shallow details that someone would have to asspull to call an actual big change in gameplay. Classes are largely the same or worse with no artifact traits, and through class design we experience everything else including M+ and raiding. It's still world quests, still casino loot system, still essentially the same game. Minor changes like some seasonal M+ changes aren't anything the vast majority of players would give a shit about by any means.

    Like of course they changed some things in BfA, but the fact that your list of features for BfA is so small and shallow should say more than enough about why this expansion is so ridiculously disappointing.

  16. #196
    Pandaren Monk Melsiren's Avatar
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    Played wow from classic till BFA.

    All "negativity" I have for WoW, and even Blizzard, comes from the perspective of a player who only wants the game(s) to improve.

    Now some people dwell too much on a game they no longer play but that is an another subject.
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  17. #197
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaito92 View Post
    It makes a self created problem better that they broke. How is that good? Its such a blatant product strategy and you see nothing wrong with it even when its laid bare before you
    You must be the best customer apple can have and has i suppose
    its not as good as it used to be.
    but you cant say for example
    "Legion>BFA cause legion broke pvp and BFA only half way fixed it"
    Legion made pvp super RNG based, BFA half fixed it, so how is that BFA's fault, and how is it somehow the same as legions?
    and no i dont go to apple cause they are horrid.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
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  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by xdunpealx View Post
    Can I give my opinion on some of these points purely for an open debate and wanting to make this game great again?

    So the good ol trusty "vanilla" talents. For optimal yes there is cookie cutter, but doesn't that make it less fun because now you have 0 options?
    On the other hand I feel you are also right because back in the day you felt rewarded for leveling every level it was "oh sweet now I have 5% crit! and now I can move on to the next talent!"
    Now we have every 15 levels of "um i guess ill just take this i dont really care" feeling, its more options but at the same time it is also "cookie cutter" according to websites which obviously going to happen.

    Jewels/Enchanting - ALL professions: they did at one point mean something, i remember choosing to be a specialized weaponsmith and now none of them have much impact or want or need or comparison to any raid gear so its what is the point? Jewels and Enchants should give you a slight edge pumping stats - i hate legion and bfa professions and progressions of them

    4 raid difficulties: LFG/LFR oh man, this was there to help low population servers and supposed to help people find groups easier. Sometimes classes of DPS were not invited because they "sucked" vs another class, remember BC? who would you take Lock vs Mage? Invite mage, mage make a table please, okay thanks kick the mage bring the lock in. Oh you are a pally? you heal main tank - druid? you are a healer. LFG/LFR did take away the social aspect of.. "hey that one tank on our server is on get him in hes good" It took that away from servers thus not social.

    Garrisons.. MAN at blizzcon this was cheered hardcore. PEOPLE WERE SUPER excited for Garrisons it looked so badass the announcements, really looked forward to it! These however took away exploring the world.. and just didnt live up to peoples expectations. But, the idea was good it was there you had your own little fort your own things you can do and you could invite your buddies into there have little parties etc I always think the backbone of it is there, and if Blizzard wanted to they could re-introduce it and improve on it
    The original point of them changing the talent system was to move away from cookie cutter builds, but when you think about how people choose which talents for which situation, they're still technically doing that. I wouldn't say there were zero options, you could choose to put 5/5 points into one talent or only put partial talents in and use the rest somewhere else as needed. This wasn't practical for every talent, but it allowed for some flexibility with gear, especially since most of the talents were flat stat increases. There are also talents currently that are undervalued or get not real useage because they're not as valued as other talents. So I agree, but I still found the stat increases to be more exciting, as contrary as that is to balancing the game. Personally the last time I played I felt like there wasn't much synergy between the different rows of talents themselves, and looking at other games I could pick out ways in which they could have improved on it to make it more exciting.

    Professions were done mostly for a source of gold, with the economy butchered and the ability to farm old materials limited compared to how it used to be, there's less incentive to have professions. Profession gear used to be a well-needed stepping stone to higher content, but unless you're pushing for a quick step-up than you don't even have to bother. You can probably just ignore professions in regards to gear and push for content like M+. I'm not sure what other benefits it has these days, but I didn't bother much with profs last I played.

    I think X-realms did more damage for that than LFR/LFD itself, but they all went hand-in-hand.

    People were excited for it because people had been asking for instanced housing for a long time. What they didn't expect was that it would kill off personal interaction by locking people away in their towers. Even Legions version of it, although an improvement, still segregated portions of the community from each other. Which is pretty much not what people wanted. People were expecting something more reasonable, such as guild housing or aesthetic housing similiar to Skyrim. It wasn't just that, though, the garrisons pretty much removed incentive to leave the garrison as well by providing most things from within. I think that if they had stuck to guild instances it would have been fine, but that would probably have problems, too. I still enjoyed WoD, personally, so I don't get the complaints about it, but limiting social interactions limits the exciting aspects of the game. I feel there should still be a player only aspect like the garrison for when people don't want to be around others, because I didn't like the class halls. WoD garrisons could have been mildly improved if they hadn't added the garden and mines.

  19. #199
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    Let me share a true story.

    I used to love going to this Thai restaurant for beef green curry. It tasted so good. The restaurant eventually changed the ingredients they used to make the green curry and ended up making a worse (less tasty) product. Why did they change the ingredients? Well, they used to make their own curry paste from scratch but then decided to use pre-made curry pastes (which were likely cheaper $$ and required less time to prepare). So, in order to make more money (by using a cheaper product that takes less time to prepare) they ended up ruining their beef green curry. I no longer buy my beef green curry at that shop.
    now do you scream and cry at them for 13 years to go back to the original green curry? or do you just go to another place to have different green curry?
    do you also call those people who enjoy the current green curry "thai shills who are blind to the real taste of curry!" or do you just... let them enjoy the curry they enjoy, even if it has changed, but they still enjoy it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
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  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by subsidalos View Post
    Maybe if Blizzard started producing a good game again there would be less negativity.. how about that?
    Nah according to the people who spend their life on this forum praising everything Blizzard do and even Ion himself it's our fault the game is bad....

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