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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Koba53 View Post
    But why is your vote so important?
    You're not going to vote for the Tories so it doesn't really matter that much.
    And if you do vote for them then Labour would have to move so hard right that it's a good thing if they ignore you.

    If Labour continues along this path they will drag the entire country to the left. That's a good thing.
    Especially when we get more articles showing how the rich doubled their wealth since the crisis.
    Que? I'm not following.

    I'm not saying you literally need *my* vote, yep?

    In swing seats, you need my demographic's vote. No?

    Yes, you're right: in my constiuency it matters not one iota which way I vote. Safe Tory seat.

    But yes, fuck FPTP. Bring on proportional represenation and then I can actually have a say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by folpath View Post
    The question is do you want endless Tory government followed by violent revolution? Because we are signed up to that and we are not bluffing. It is not a question of us coming around or anything, you have absolutely nothing to bargain with.
    Sure, ok - but that's not going to happen is it. You're just going to get sat upon. Because we're now talking about just a very, very small minority on the hard left who would actually sign up to that. I'd guess, a couple of thousand?

  2. #82
    Anyway - on a tangent: didn’t you say you voted remain? If you’re advocating violent revolution that doesn’t sit well with remaining in the EU?

    What are your political beliefs? Marxism-Leninism? Anarcho-communism?

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salty Shadow Priest View Post
    But yes, fuck FPTP. Bring on proportional represenation and then I can actually have a say.
    Amen, and I live in a key battleground the Tories nearly flipped last election.

    Then the Labour MP quit the party anyway. But living here and having every Tom Dick and Harry try to cosy up and secure your vote when you already know you intend to vote for neither Labour or Conservative, and have to stomach their bullshit promises, is something I'd be glad to be rid of.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrak View Post
    Liberals have no place in a left-wing party, get used to it sweetums.
    I know Americans are used to not having a strong left-wing party, but that does not fly in all countries.

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    Whats the point of power if its the liberals who are in charge of labour? That is not how political parties work.
    Have fun losing elections then.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Mighty Tim View Post
    Are they still committing high treason over there to try and wiggle out of Brexit?

    I would find it hard to believe the average UK citizen has any faith in democracy at this point..
    Seriously how would it be treason. It was a non binding resolution and they are elected representatives they are not required to vote the peoples will. But calling it treason is absurd if they vote for a second referendum based on deal or no deal or cancelling brexit all together. You might not like it but it isn't treason to do so.

  6. #86
    All I see in my feed is a lot of deleted posts

    Forthgarth - I’d like to debate this with you properly. This is a better thread for it than the Brexit thread. Let’s just try not to resort to ad hominem?

    UK democratic process is fucked. Completely fucked. A perfect storm of austerity, nationalism, gutter journalism, self-serving politicians, tribal politics and the utter stupidity that is FPTP.

    In Brexit we are seeing the complete failure of FPTP.

    The UK has a dictatorial, arrogant & misguided prime minister who is under the impression that she can bulldoze through the solution *she* thinks is best when it is clear that her cabinet, her party, the opposition, the media and indeed the whole population is hopelessly and irreconcilably divided.

    Whatever happens with Brexit, we need to move away from combative two party tribal politics and to a form of proportional representation in which negotiation, compromise & mature decision-making are valued more highly than the childish point-scoring and utter paralysis we have at the moment.

    Again: what are your political views. You describe yourself as hard left. Well - that covers a lot of bases doesn’t it.

    I assume you’re a member of the Labour party? Are you a member of Momentum? You say you’re happy that moderates are leaving the party, you’re resigned to not winning an election, that the goal is to move the political debate to the left? Followed by violent revolution?

    I disagree completely.

    a) Although I appreciate the courage of the TIG MPs, while we don’t have a form of proportional representation it’s a completely symbolic gesture. It will also only further drag the Tories to the right and Labour to the left. You’ve said this suits you but:

    b) As a result, Labour won’t win an election. They just won’t. Although I will vote for TIG (if they form a proper party) / Lib Dems / Greens and it won’t make the blindest bit of difference because of FPTP in my safe Tory seat, in swing seats my demographic may well end up voting Tory as a reaction against the resignation / deselection of moderates and their replacement with Momentum candidates.

    c) So, your solution to endless Tory governments is then violent revolution.

    :O

    No. Just no. It will never happen. And if it did happen and a few thousand of you engaged you’d be roundly destroyed.

    This is not the solution to inequality. You need to come up with a better idea.

    Somewhere back you said the Blair government was "probably worse than the Tories", or something like that. Do you want to back this up with some evidence / data?
    Last edited by LeGin Tufnel; 2019-02-22 at 09:27 AM.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    And what I am seeing in the far left is that the Marxist narrative that vilifies the middle class has proven useful to keep us divided from the working class against an investor class that is perhaps even smaller a percentage of the population than the nobility was yet even more powerful albeit in more subtle ways....

    I think the expectation of the working class is what, that the middle class will become so impoverished that it will embrace state socialism or communism? I just do not see that happen. We KNOW that it doesn't work.

    You are massively overthinking this stuff. The working class kept faith with the middle class through the modernization period under Kinnock/Smith etc and through the New Labour era and voted for Milliband. They grumbled a lot but they voted for Blair repeatedly. Essentially they sacrificed their ideology for the sake of party unity. During that time they got nothing. There's no "villification" there, there is just literally no reason for them to vote for another Blairite.

    By contrast every time an actual left-winger gets the leadership the middle-class vote throws a childish hissy fit and splits off. At this stage I don't care what happens to the middle-class, whether they die off or whatever, I just know I can't trust them.

    As for the "investor class" I'd remind you that Gordon Brown gave the banks a trillion pounds and currently works in the finance sector.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salty Shadow Priest View Post

    c) So, your solution to endless Tory governments is then violent revolution.

    :O

    No. Just no. It will never happen. And if it did happen and a few thousand of you engaged you’d be roundly destroyed.

    This is not the solution to inequality. You need to come up with a better idea.
    You don't seem to understand how revolutions traditionally work. It isn't like in "Les Miserable" with charming idealistic people in cloth caps. It is mostly pissed-off people on the street who have a very vague ideology. They may be directed to some extent but the mob is the vast majority of the people carrying out change. The number of actual Bolsheviks, for example, was not that great. Mostly it is just looters, thugs and angry people looking to take out their frustrations.

    This assumes of course that a revolution follows traditional methods. It very likely won't. It could be something exotic like an endless series of DOS attacks on government infrastructure. Or it could be mostly legislative. Or it could be some combination of these things. The mechanism is largely unknowable.

    What is certain is that people are not going to accept continuously being underpaid while wealth concentrates into literally a few dozen hands globally. You are confusing the relative stability of British society up to this point with the future.
    Last edited by falathwe; 2019-02-22 at 09:57 AM.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by falathwe View Post
    At this stage I don't care what happens to the middle-class, whether they die off or whatever, I just know I can't trust them.
    Hmmss... but the established middle class, the technical middle class and newly affluent workers (GBCS class survey) make up 46% of the population.

    Not sure we're just going to die off.

    What's your solution. It's as Nymrohd says: you're hoping we become impoverished too? You want the Tories to continue their lurch to the right, crash out of the EU, Liam Fox / David Davis get their no rules, free market dystopia.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Salty Shadow Priest View Post
    Hmmss... but the established middle class, the technical middle class and newly affluent workers (GBCS class survey) make up 46% of the population.

    Not sure we're just going to die off.

    What's your solution. It's as Nymrohd says: you're hoping we become impoverished too? You want the Tories to continue their lurch to the right, crash out of the EU, Liam Fox / David Davis get their no rules, free market dystopia.
    What I primarily want is a Labour Party united behind the democratic mandate its leader has to initiate peaceful social change and redistribution of wealth.

    It seems that you can't accept that. That is your privilege. But you and others who support the breakaway group are responsible for what follows, not those who remain within the party. We are not going to be blackmailed by the minority.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    But yeah politically the UK is fucked until you remove FPTP. If anything, had you voted in favour of the changes to electoral system in that referendum a few years ago, there would be a lot less strategic voting and in the next elections you might have had more parity. But I am afraid that strategic voting will still suppress voters on all sides who will vote Tories or Labour not out of loyalty but simple to keep the other party away from power. You are having a disaster yet you are not even able to make use of the opportunities it will create
    Aren't political system problems just as important as "investor/non-investor struggles"? Historical "anti-investor" solutions against wealth hoarding are well-known, existing political systems just have no will to implement them.

    Plenty of political systems are set up for major upheavals.

    Democrat/Republican struggles in US, Labor/Cons in UK (and Brexit), "Yellow Jackets" in France, rise of populists/eurosceptics in EU, and United Russia will probably lose constitutional majority in Russia next time around too...
    Last edited by Shalcker; 2019-02-22 at 10:14 AM.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    "I don't care to have a new goat, I just want the neigbour's goat to die" Because ultimately when you feel defined by relative social status, it's just as good and maybe even simpler to bring others down than to bring yourself up.
    That was a very interesting post. I love that quotation especially, it explains more or less everything....

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by falathwe View Post
    What I primarily want is a Labour Party united behind the democratic mandate its leader has to initiate peaceful social change and redistribution of wealth.

    It seems that you can't accept that. That is your privilege. But you and others who support the breakaway group are responsible for what follows, not those who remain within the party. We are not going to be blackmailed by the minority.
    You're not reading what I've written. I've said I don't support the breakaway group. I admire the courage of the TIG MPs but that their actions are purely symbolic as we don't have a form of proportional representation.

    Until we ditch FPTP I do not want centrists to leave either the Tories or Labour.

    It's you who's saying you want to expel them.

    Also, "we are not going to be blackmailed by the minority". Ummm... I hadn't realised the hard left were the majority. Name the MPs? Or are they unimportant - you're referring to the membership?

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Tax avoidance is the greatest plight of the western world. The amount lost to avoidance would be more than enough to cover free healthcare, free education at all levels and a comprehensive pension system. I do not see how it can be comparable.
    Yes, I agree completely.

    And in my opinion the solution isn't to embrace the hard left it's to e.g., support and uphold supranational bodies like the EU that have the will and the power to combat the worst excesses of the free market. Anti Tax Avoidance Directive etc. Who will benefit from the UK not having to adhere to that? Oh wait, it won't be the middle classes will it.

    Got to go now to get some actual work done, earn some money / pay my taxes / redistribution of wealth and all that.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Wermys View Post
    Seriously how would it be treason. It was a non binding resolution and they are elected representatives they are not required to vote the peoples will. But calling it treason is absurd if they vote for a second referendum based on deal or no deal or cancelling brexit all together. You might not like it but it isn't treason to do so.
    Was speaking when the house leader tried to cover up bill that would of kept the UK under the EU's thumb till 2090? Am trying to find the story but it oddly difficult to... it may have been proven false I don't know to be honest it was a few months ago.

    I do disagree though... democracy shouldn't be keep voting till certain groups get the outcome they want. They voted they said leave they leave.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    The rise of populists in the EU is entirely a different problem. It's a political issue (I will not call the way the people choose to vote a problem) but not a political system issue and it is entirely because of dissatisfaction from stagnant wages and is fully because the investor class is squeezing every last profit margin.
    Could you point out distinction you see here between "political system problem" and "political problem"?

    Political systems produce political problems; different systems are supposed to produce different problems. If problem is the same across different national EU political systems, how is that not a problem of EU political system as a whole?

    Isn't something like "Don't let Greece default on loans" happens to be product of EU political system and EU defense of investor class?
    Last edited by Shalcker; 2019-02-22 at 11:06 AM.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Mighty Tim View Post
    Was speaking when the house leader tried to cover up bill that would of kept the UK under the EU's thumb till 2090? Am trying to find the story but it oddly difficult to... it may have been proven false I don't know to be honest it was a few months ago.

    I do disagree though... democracy shouldn't be keep voting till certain groups get the outcome they want. They voted they said leave they leave.
    Keep voting until the desired outcome is silly. But once sufficient time has passed and/or conditions have changed, by all means, have a new vote or adapt your legislation. The debate is now... is 2 years and a buttload of new "X won't work outside the EU" enough to warrant a new vote? Or as some may put it, the first proper vote? I think a case could easily be made. The 2016 vote kinda took everyone by surprise in that it came about and how badly it was executed from the remain side. There was more misinformation floating around than actual, helpful information about how intertwined the UK and EU actually are and how many things depend on EU membership by now.
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  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Keep voting until the desired outcome is silly. But once sufficient time has passed and/or conditions have changed, by all means, have a new vote or adapt your legislation. The debate is now... is 2 years and a buttload of new "X won't work outside the EU" enough to warrant a new vote? Or as some may put it, the first proper vote? I think a case could easily be made. The 2016 vote kinda took everyone by surprise in that it came about and how badly it was executed from the remain side. There was more misinformation floating around than actual, helpful information about how intertwined the UK and EU actually are and how many things depend on EU membership by now.
    They demanded a new vote less then a minute from losing...

    They voted leave if democracy is to mean anything they leave...

    We shouldn't have to vote until the side that feels slighted wins. I hate to point out your hypocrisy but if they voted remain you would not be offering this olive branch.

    Democracy must be respected or it will not be tolerated. People will look to alternatives to it if it no longer represents them.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Mighty Tim View Post
    They demanded a new vote less then a minute from losing...

    They voted leave if democracy is to mean anything they leave...

    We shouldn't have to vote until the side that feels slighted wins. I hate to point out your hypocrisy but if they voted remain you would not be offering this olive branch.

    Democracy must be respected or it will not be tolerated. People will look to alternatives to it if it no longer represents them.
    When they demanded something isn't quite relevant to the question of whether or not it's reasonable now, is it? You're practically accusing them of bad faith acting. Fine. So they acted in bad faith. But as a neutral observer, has the massive flood of new information not justified a discussion about a proper new vote without it being tainted by bad faith accusations? I think it has. Obviously you don't and would prefer to "test it out".

    That's a valid position, but as I pointed out numerous times, you have been warned and this testride is at your own risk. You do not get to blame the EU for whatever happens next.
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  19. #99
    Boy, what a sockpuppetfest this thread has become.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    When they demanded something isn't quite relevant to the question of whether or not it's reasonable now, is it? You're practically accusing them of bad faith acting. Fine. So they acted in bad faith. But as a neutral observer, has the massive flood of new information not justified a discussion about a proper new vote without it being tainted by bad faith accusations? I think it has. Obviously you don't and would prefer to "test it out".

    That's a valid position, but as I pointed out numerous times, you have been warned and this testride is at your own risk. You do not get to blame the EU for whatever happens next.
    Nor should they be allowed to. That said the outright sabotage of leaving by their own elected officials who are solely elected to carry out their will and represent them in the house is something they can blame.

    This concept of trying so,so desperately to remain a part of the EU but to surrender any influence on it honestly confounds me. It is time to leave they can deal with the UK as any other nation does but the UK cannot allow its leaving to come with a ransom note.

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