is BM really this shit?

[Freshouttajail]

There will always be a bottom, but people only get a terrible perceptions when the bottom is way out side a % of the top.

My raid may well still down the content, if my raid leader takes me, if the pug leader invites me, if the m+ group let's me in to get gear..... So on and so on. This shit has a knock of effect. Bm is bottom, bm hunters struggle to do keys, struggle to get groups, bm hunters end up on averedge in lower I level gear than the top, making bm logs even worse.

This is the real world, idealised of your perfect eutopia were groups and pugs don't make there stupid judgments on these numbers all you want.

But that solves nothing, and let's blizzard get away with stuff we both know they can solve before it hits live.

Tube the classes, change the bosses, design raids to not be skewed to massively favor a few classes every tier. It really really isn't rocket science.

Or failing that give us all the shit back they took away from the game. Because I'm fine with bad balance as long as I have more stuff to play with and do.

M+ and raids have different fights that work differently. Even the bonus outside of fights affect class performance and the reasons why they are taken. Do you want classes to be balanced for the raid or for M+? Cuz you can't have both and whichever you pick, there will be people like to to come complain here without understanding this fundamental and inevitable truth.

[Mavick]

That there will always be a bottom and that even if you have some bottom classes in your raid you will still down the content unless YOU suck ass.

Could classes be more balanced? Yes.
Are you required to only have top classes to down bosses? No.

You're right, they *can* be done without the best classes. But that doesn't make it easier. Even on mythic, you can bring really whatever you want for the first 6 bosses. But once you get to Mekkatorque your margins of error really start going down if you're carrying poor performing specs. So why would you want to bring them?

[Freshouttajail]

You're right, they *can* be done without the best classes. But that doesn't make it easier. Even on mythic, you can bring really whatever you want for the first 6 bosses. But once you get to Mekkatorque your margins of error really start going down if you're carrying poor performing specs. So why would you want to bring them?

I'm not saying you would want to, I'm saying why cry about things that are not important and borderline meaningless? This is a thread about BM being bad, fight after world first was done with a BM and BM are not even the worst. OP is just sad that Blizzard's decision doesn't give him a free win like it did for so many years. There's threads like this every fucking week. Only god thing to do about it is telling people to stop crying.

[Monster Hunter]

M+ and raids have different fights that work differently. Even the bonus outside of fights affect class performance and the reasons why they are taken. Do you want classes to be balanced for the raid or for M+? Cuz you can't have both and whichever you pick, there will be people like to to come complain here without understanding this fundamental and inevitable truth.

The one that effects class perception the most. But why must it be either or? What the hell are talents for?

[Mavick]

I'm not saying you would want to, I'm saying why cry about things that are not important and borderline meaningless? This is a thread about BM being bad, fight after world first was done with a BM and BM are not even the worst. OP is just sad that Blizzard's decision doesn't give him a free win like it did for so many years. There's threads like this every fucking week. Only god thing to do about it is telling people to stop crying.

I wouldn't call succeeding on the hardest bosses of the tier as "not important and borderline meaningless". That's just stupid, frankly.

And as has been pointed out multiple times on this thread, Gingi only went BM because his MM gear was shit. At that point in gearing the differences are much smaller between the 2 specs compared to later gearing. He plays MM now, confirmed on his own stream. And by the time everyone else gets there that "I only have good gear for BM" argument becomes much more far fetched. So get some perspective, maybe.

[Freshouttajail]

I wouldn't call succeeding on the hardest bosses of the tier as "not important and borderline meaningless". That's just stupid, frankly.

And as has been pointed out multiple times on this thread, Gingi only went BM because his MM gear was shit. At that point in gearing the differences are much smaller between the 2 specs compared to later gearing. He plays MM now, confirmed on his own stream. And by the time everyone else gets there that "I only have good gear for BM" argument becomes much more far fetched. So get some perspective, maybe.

I didn't say succeeding on the hardest boss was not important or meaningless. I said crying about thinking that a class is not good when it's in fact good enough to get world first is meaningless whining.

I never said BM is better than MM. I said he did it as BM, has nothing to do with how MM is performing. The guy will play what's best, it doesn't change a single thing that I said. Like, the only thing I see that you are asking for (indirectly) is for BM to be better than MM. I didn't see you cry about MM being lower than BM during Uldir, what's up with that? Oh okay you want blizzard to buff your class so you can have it easier oooh I see.

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The one that effects class perception the most. But why must it be either or? What the hell are talents for?

Well yeah, talents are shit, they've been shit forever in this game. I still don't know why talents are not 100% of our rotation, now that would be real customization instead of giving us a bunch of shit option but still having the same rotation everyone else does.

[Monster Hunter]

I didn't say succeeding on the hardest boss was not important or meaningless. I said crying about thinking that a class is not good when it's in fact good enough to get world first is meaningless whining.

I never said BM is better than MM. I said he did it as BM, has nothing to do with how MM is performing. The guy will play what's best, it doesn't change a single thing that I said. Like, the only thing I see that you are asking for (indirectly) is for BM to be better than MM. I didn't see you cry about MM being lower than BM during Uldir, what's up with that? Oh okay you want blizzard to buff your class so you can have it easier oooh I see.

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Well yeah, talents are shit, they've been shit forever in this game. I still don't know why talents are not 100% of our rotation, now that would be real customization instead of giving us a bunch of shit option but still having the same rotation everyone else does.

May be, there certebly played more of a role, befor they were gutted down in the name of the "balance" we don't have, I still remember reading all the crap ghost crawler put out back then, how it was gonna eleminate cookie cutter, and even with less give more options and be easier to balance for end game.

And well.... Here we are, arguing about the latest spec blizz has shat on. Nothing different except there less in the game, less to play with and less opportunity.

[Freshouttajail]

May be, there certebly played more of a role, befor they were gutted down in the name of the "balance" we don't have, I still remember reading all the crap ghost crawler put out back then, how it was gonna eleminate cookie cutter, and even with less give more options and be easier to balance for end game.

And well.... Here we are, arguing about the latest spec blizz has shat on. Nothing different except there less in the game, less to play with and less opportunity.

They weren't that good before, mainly forced people to take specific things like shadow form otherwise you would just suck and just spam click for 1% dmg to one skill. Talents are less unique now but at least the sense of choice is more presence since every talent you take means there's 2 you don't have. Back then you had almost the entire page and then pick the talents in the other spec page that were actually designed to work with your own spec anyway. Everyone was the same back then as well except idiots who couldn't read tooltips.

[Monster Hunter]

They weren't that good before, mainly forced people to take specific things like shadow form otherwise you would just suck and just spam click for 1% dmg to one skill. Talents are less unique now but at least the sense of choice is more presence since every talent you take means there's 2 you don't have. Back then you had almost the entire page and then pick the talents in the other spec page that were actually designed to work with your own spec anyway. Everyone was the same back then as well except idiots who couldn't read tooltips.

and people who wanted to mess around. try to make weird and unique things. stuff like shockadin came from that freedom.

it is a lesser man that does not mourn the loss of freedoms, simply because he never excised them......

[Mavick]

I didn't say succeeding on the hardest boss was not important or meaningless. I said crying about thinking that a class is not good when it's in fact good enough to get world first is meaningless whining.

I never said BM is better than MM. I said he did it as BM, has nothing to do with how MM is performing. The guy will play what's best, it doesn't change a single thing that I said. Like, the only thing I see that you are asking for (indirectly) is for BM to be better than MM. I didn't see you cry about MM being lower than BM during Uldir, what's up with that? Oh okay you want blizzard to buff your class so you can have it easier oooh I see.

What, that's not what I'm asking for at all. How fucking dense are you? My dispute with you is you saying "BM is good enough" and holding up the example of Gingi like that proves your point. I'm telling you that argument is stupid when you consider the context and that no, BM is NOT good enough on the fights that count. Maybe when your whole raid team is world first and everyone else is at 400 ilevel still when you reach the last boss, sure. But that applies to like 3 guilds in the world, maybe. So using that as your evidence is just fucking stupid.

[Bepples]

You were saying?

Imagine trying to get away with quoting something out-of-context on a forum that lets us immediately jump to the original post.

Why don't you quote the very next sentence of the 2nd quote?

[Mavick]

Imagine trying to get away with quoting something out-of-context on a forum that lets us immediately jump to the original post.

Why don't you quote the very next sentence of the 2nd quote?

Not trying to get away with anything, I just literally quoted you to prove that your later response was full of shit. And I've already rebutted what you said after that quote anyway, which is just garbled nonsense about buffs that everyone hits anyway. The point I originally made was that BM by far has more automatic damage than any other class and that serves as a huge buffer for actual "skill". Nothing that you or anyone else has said since then has in any way, shape or form managed to dispute that simple fact.

[Pigglix]

Hm..pretty sure Aff Locks has more automatic damage than BM by far, i mean, you just apply dot and roll your way to victory, pets auto attacks dmg are a sad joke, so..yeah.

Also aff locks can be almost mobile as bm hunter, so what up with their dmg being up there instead of being down here with us, peasants.

And dont even get me started on bosses like jadefire masters, where you have to constantly deal with "path not avaiable" from your pets, while as a Aff lock, can just dot and smile.

And before someone say that this raid favors "dot classes", well, aff was still up there on uldir

[Kaver]

How do you explain such a huge difference in DPS between good BM and bad one if everything you said is true?

No matter how easy a class is, there will still be bad players who dies etc.

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Then Havoc DH should be on the very last DPS spot.

DH is also pretty easy. However they still need to dodge mechanics to stay close to the boss as a melee. DH should also be lower on the dps charts but Blizzard wont allow their newest class to die and so they make it OP.

BM just have no downsides. It is by far the easiest spec and should have the lowest dps cap.

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Name a complex class in bfa and explain exactly how you think it's complicated.

That depends how you define complex. You might think all specs are relatively easy. Nevertheless, BM is still the easiest.

No matter how you look on the general difficulty of specs, BM has by far the lowest skill cap and should also have the lowest dps cap.

[Monster Hunter]

No matter how easy a class is, there will still be bad players who dies etc.

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DH is also pretty easy. However they still need to dodge mechanics to stay close to the boss as a melee. DH should also be lower on the dps charts but Blizzard wont allow their newest class to die and so they make it OP.

BM just have no downsides. It is by far the easiest spec and should have the lowest dps cap.

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That depends how you define complex. You might think all specs are relatively easy. Nevertheless, BM is still the easiest.

No matter how you look on the general difficulty of specs, BM has by far the lowest skill cap and should also have the lowest dps cap.

That's not an answer.

Name a spec in this game that you find complex. And why it's complex.

[Stormmantis]

How many specs can you name that are actually difficult to play (without bias!) bm is not hard no but that's not a reason it should be assumed that low dps is acceptable. in fact the only thing that is acceptable is that their is choice, which you there currently isn't for a lot of people many feel obligated to switch spec or class as new ones rise as fotm others stubbornly stick to a spec like bm (eg me) because they enjoy they. it ought not be a matter of feeling forced into or just settling for - Blizzard ought be more pro active with balance to improve available choices.

[Kaver]

That's not an answer.

Name a spec in this game that you find complex. And why it's complex.

I want to answer your question, but you need to give me some kind of scale or base I can refer to then. Complexity is relative. Complex compared to...

What I can do right now however, is to name specs which are more complex compared to BM: All of them.

The point is that BM has the lowest skill cap and it is therefore only natural that it has the lowest dps cap.

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How many specs can you name that are actually difficult to play (without bias!) bm is not hard no but that's not a reason it should be assumed that low dps is acceptable. in fact the only thing that is acceptable is that their is choice, which you there currently isn't for a lot of people many feel obligated to switch spec or class as new ones rise as fotm others stubbornly stick to a spec like bm (eg me) because they enjoy they. it ought not be a matter of feeling forced into or just settling for - Blizzard ought be more pro active with balance to improve available choices.

BM is the EASIEST. Therefore it’s fair that it is bottom of the dps charts. BM is completely viable in all content.

[Stormmantis]

No, easy is not a reason for low dps. All specs should be viable always to promote choice difficulty is not relevant at all. Besides by that argument you could say x spec is hard to play so should be more damage and then you'll find someone else will say no its easy too hard or easy are subjective, a moving goalpost that varies player to player.

[Monster Hunter]

I want to answer your question, but you need to give me some kind of scale or base I can refer to then. Complexity is relative. Complex compared to...

What I can do right now however, is to name specs which are more complex compared to BM: All of them.

The point is that BM has the lowest skill cap and it is therefore only natural that it has the lowest dps cap.

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BM is the EASIEST. Therefore it’s fair that it is bottom of the dps charts. BM is completely viable in all content.

OK let's do some simple Comparisons.

What makes havoc dh more complex than BM.
What makes fury warrior more complex than BM.
What makes destro lock more complex than BM.

[Kaver]

OK let's do some simple Comparisons.

What makes havoc dh more complex than BM.
What makes fury warrior more complex than BM.
What makes destro lock more complex than BM.

Not being ranged
Not being ranged
Not as mobile because of cast time abilities

Many people call BM “a ranged melee” because it is definitely not a caster. Havoc and Fury are also very easy, but what gives BM the leas is the ranged abilities. There are no downsides to BM. No compromises. BM got the instant attacks of a melee but the freedom of a ranged.