is BM really this shit?

[Kaver]

Your exact post when the person questioned you as to why DH are more complex, why warriors are more complex, etc, is that they are melee while BM is rdps.
Don’t backtrack now and try to change your arguement, simply state that you were wrong, apologize, and clarify.
You also state all other specs require more effort than BM, yet when posed the very direct question of “how,” and the counter response of pointing out that how specifically, your arguement equates to “because.” You are repeating the same thing with no factual evidence to back it up. You say melee are more complex than BM because they have to range a boss, but that comes back to meaning all rdps specs are inherently easier than all melee simply because they don’t have to range a boss.
You also try to argue BM use a priority system of press an ability on CD, which has also been pointed out to you is factually wrong, while you ignore that is what almost all other specs do at this point.
As stated before, at this point I’m done with you. I’m not getting pulled back into an arguement with you again as you have added nothing new to any discussion. All of your posts are hyperbolic and have not once ever approached something as a good reason to back up what you take the time to try and explain.
Have a good day, may your life be happy, and move on, for that is what I am doing.

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Actually, this is too good not to respond to:
You just stated rdps does not mean harder than melee, just for BM. So you just countered yourself, again.
Yes, all instant. First decent post you’ve made, but let’s not forget melee are almost all, if not all instant. As well as most rdps have instants or some kind of ‘cqstable while moving’ spell they can use while moving that means they don’t just drop to zero damage when moving.
Factually wrong. Use abilities out of actually prioritizing how you use them affects your damage. Hence arguements about min/max potential that you gloss over all the time.
AoE simple yes, but no more than other specs. BM also changes based on number of mobs. 2-4 weave a MS between every 3-4 abilities depending on Haste while still using other abilities and keeping up FF. 5+ MS takes over priority of KC in rotation while still keeping up FF buff. Compare to other specs that, like DH, their rotation stays the same. Frost mage adds in Blizzard. Paladin replaces TV with DS. Those are just 3 specs with a much easier rotation than BM. Guess you’ll overlook those too.
Mages and Paladins both have immunities. Paladins can even give their immunities (to physical) to other people.
Just lol. Focus might as well not be there. You let me know how your next BW damge window goes when you spam CS down to 0 and then press BW.
BW CD close, but again false. When comparing to min/max, or in other words it’s greateat potential, you want at least 1 charge of FF up going into BW. There’s also wanting KC to be ready, as well as when MoC is coming off Cd as you generally would like those to line up.
Your pets auto damage also ties directly into your management of FF uptime. Thi, again, ties into your management of buffs and min/max.
When you combine all of these things it shows there is more complexity to BM than what you are trying to point out.
Just so we’re still on same page: I’ve never once stated Bm isn’t easy. It is actually a pretty easy spec; but that doesn’t mean that it’s the easiest spec in game like you want to make people believe.

Being able to use your abilities from a large range is an advantage. But that doesn't make all ranged specs easier than all melee spec. Because it is only one factor.


BM is the easiet spec because of all the following combined:

- Ranged abilities
- All instant abilities. No cast time
- Simple forgiving rotation. No punishing use-order.
- Very simple AOE rotation.
- Immunity
- Very little resource management. Focus might as well not be there.
- Very simple and unforgiving CD. Bestial Wrath has a very short CD which allows you to use it with very little planning ahead.
- Pet doing a lot of auto damage.

It's the combination that makes BM the most effortless spec in the game. There you go mate, hope this helps

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Combustion, phoenix flames, fire blast, pyro, fire blast, pyro, phoenix, pyro, blast, pyro, blast, pyro, fire ball x till blast pyro. Repeat till combustion.......

Frost dk. Winter, oblit oblit oblit oblit frost strike frost strike frost strike oblit oblit oblit oblit blah blah blah edgy lord. Pop dragon.

Yes Fire mage and Frost dk are very easy specs. Definitely. But they don't have all the advantages of BM.

[Monster Hunter]

Being able to use your abilities from a large range is an advantage. But that doesn't make all ranged specs easier than all melee spec. Because it is only one factor.


BM is the easiet spec because of all the following combined:

- Ranged abilities
- All instant abilities. No cast time
- Simple forgiving rotation. No punishing use-order.
- Very simple AOE rotation.
- Immunity
- Very little resource management. Focus might as well not be there.
- Very simple and unforgiving CD. Bestial Wrath has a very short CD which allows you to use it with very little planning ahead.
- Pet doing a lot of auto damage.

It's the combination that makes BM the most effortless spec in the game. There you go mate, hope this helps

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Yes Fire mage and Frost dk are very easy specs. Definitely. But they don't have all the advantages of BM:

- Ranged abilities
- All instant abilities. No cast time
- Simple forgiving rotation. No punishing use-order.
- Very simple AOE rotation.
- Immunity
- Very little resource management. Focus might as well not be there.
- Very simple and unforgiving CD. Bestial Wrath has a very short CD which allows you to use it with very little planning ahead.
- Pet doing a lot of auto damage.

It's the combination of all the points above which makes BM the easiest. A Frost DK comply with a lot of them but not all.

OK

Stand at the boss

Then

Frost dk. Winter, oblit oblit oblit oblit frost strike frost strike frost strike oblit oblit oblit oblit blah blah blah edgy lord. Pop dragon.

And sometimes.... God forbid.... You have to hit a movement key at the same time.....

[Kaver]

OK

Stand at the boss

Then

Frost dk. Winter, oblit oblit oblit oblit frost strike frost strike frost strike oblit oblit oblit oblit blah blah blah edgy lord. Pop dragon.

And sometimes.... God forbid.... You have to hit a movement key at the same time.....

Yes so Frost DK is also very easy. But not the easiest.

Frost DK: Simple rotation + instant abilities = easy

BM hunter: Simple rotation + instant abilities + ranged attacks = easier

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Everyone. BM is the easiet spec because of all the following combined:

- Ranged abilities
- All instant abilities. No cast time
- Simple forgiving rotation. No punishing use-order.
- Very simple AOE rotation.
- Immunity
- Very little resource management. Focus might as well not be there.
- Very simple and unforgiving CD. Bestial Wrath has a very short CD which allows you to use it with very little planning ahead.
- Pet doing a lot of auto damage.

It's the combination all the above that makes BM the most effortless and least punishing spec in the game. Therefore it is only natural that BM has the lowest dps cap.

[Monster Hunter]

Yes so Frost DK is also very easy. But not the easiest.

Frost DK: Simple rotation + instant abilities = easy

BM hunter: Simple rotation + instant abilities + ranged attacks = easier

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Everyone. BM is the easiet spec because of all the following combined:

- Ranged abilities
- All instant abilities. No cast time
- Simple forgiving rotation. No punishing use-order.
- Very simple AOE rotation.
- Immunity
- Very little resource management. Focus might as well not be there.
- Very simple and unforgiving CD. Bestial Wrath has a very short CD which allows you to use it with very little planning ahead.
- Pet doing a lot of auto damage.

It's the combination all the above that makes BM the most effortless and least punishing spec in the game. Therefore it is only natural that BM has the lowest dps cap.

Be in range of boss

Combustion, birdy, blast pyro, blast, pyro, birdy, pyro, blast, pyro, blast, pyro, fire ball or scorch ti flashy light go wooooow sparkle sparkle, pyro, repeat

Collect loot. I am uber spicy mage!!!

[Kaver]

Be in range of boss

Combustion, birdy, blast pyro, blast, pyro, birdy, pyro, blast, pyro, blast, pyro, fire ball or scorch ti flashy light go wooooow sparkle sparkle, pyro, repeat

Collect loot. I am uber spicy mage!!!

Don't be angry my friend. We're just debating. I don't play mage

The thread is addressing: "is BM really this shit?" And I think BM is where it should be, because no spec in the game has the following combination of attributes other than BM:

- Ranged abilities
- All instant abilities. No cast time
- Simple forgiving rotation. No punishing use-order.
- Very simple AOE rotation.
- Immunity
- Very little resource management. Focus might as well not be there.
- Very simple and unforgiving CD. Bestial Wrath has a very short CD which allows you to use it with very little planning ahead.
- Pet doing a lot of auto damage.

Therefore it is the easiest and the least punishing spec in the game. You are allowed to disagree. Fortunately for me, Blizzard don't

[Mavick]

The thread is addressing: "is BM really this shit?" And I think BM is where it should be, because no spec in the game has the following combination of attributes other than BM:

I agree with most of what you're saying, but not this part. Yes at the bottom is ok, but not below everything else as far as it is. It literally is not-viable once you get to the harder bosses in less than world first guilds, we've even started sitting BM hunters due to low damage output. All the things that make it simple/non-punishing should obviously come at a tradeoff of limited top end damage. But remember it's a "tradeoff", not strictly a punishment. They should still technically be able to match classes that suffer from mechanics on the fights those mechanics come into play. And right now that's not happening because Blizzard completely over-punished the spec starting in Uldir.

[Lodvampire]

Pretty much this. Most people in this thread don’t seem opposed to BM being bottom damage, they just don’t want to be bottom damage by such a large margin.

A lot of people wan't buffs for their classes/specs just to fell "powerfull" and show off their logs later, I personally don't care about that much, what I care, is when I'm progressing on that Mythic boss or on a high key, and my team lost for, lets say, 2, 3%, then I look at logs and see that I did nothing wrong and yet I'm dead bottom on charts, that's really bothers me. Sure, any other of the 19 teammates could press a little more their buttons, but they could also bring another class, with less gear, less skill and no clue about the mechanics and still kill the boss just because this large margin of imbalance.

[Monster Hunter]

Don't be angry my friend. We're just debating. I don't play mage

The thread is addressing: "is BM really this shit?" And I think BM is where it should be, because no spec in the game has the following combination of attributes other than BM:

- Ranged abilities
- All instant abilities. No cast time
- Simple forgiving rotation. No punishing use-order.
- Very simple AOE rotation.
- Immunity
- Very little resource management. Focus might as well not be there.
- Very simple and unforgiving CD. Bestial Wrath has a very short CD which allows you to use it with very little planning ahead.
- Pet doing a lot of auto damage.

Therefore it is the easiest and the least punishing spec in the game. You are allowed to disagree. Fortunately for me, Blizzard don't

And I raise you fire mage.

[Piesor]

BM was top dps at BfA launch and absurdly op in PvP during this phase. It was middle of the pack in Uldir and is bottom dps now. Wait for your buff and get over it.

The question if BM has earned bottom dps because of its easier playstyle is a debate you brought up yourself and is nothing Blizzard does intend. BM just scales bad with more gear and other classes were buffed. It's as simple as that.

Raiding as BM is perfectly fine. And while your dps isn't that great overall the spec is much more forgiving when you have to move a lot or if your are that guy who should take care of certain mechanics.

[Eapoe]

BM was top dps at BfA launch and absurdly op in PvP during this phase. It was middle of the pack in Uldir and is bottom dps now. Wait for your buff and get over it.

The question if BM has earned bottom dps because of its easier playstyle is a debate you brought up yourself and is nothing Blizzard does intend. BM just scales bad with more gear and other classes were buffed. It's as simple as that.

Raiding as BM is perfectly fine. And while your dps isn't that great overall the spec is much more forgiving when you have to move a lot or if your are that guy who should take care of certain mechanics.

Few issues with your comments:
BM started high in both PvE and PvP and was quickly nerfed. Multiple times in PvP. Party because the playerbase complained that Hunters could just put their pet on you and run away while the pet whittled people down. For the most part, they were justified in the complaints. The issue is that BM Hunters got nerfed a little too much in these regards. PvE though also got nerfed because in addition to PvP templates being nerfed Blizz also nerfed abilities and PvE templates.
Secondly, and I don’t know how true this is, multiple people have stated scaling issues with BM is supposed to changed for BfA and scale better with gear and agility. It’s more that other classes have seen buffs while BM has seen nerfs.
Raaiding as BM is...okay. I won’t say it is fine. The damage is abysmal and the lowest by a huge margin. Specs around BM Hunters have every right to ask for buffs. As far as a lot of movement, it’s a nonissue. People always bring this up, but how many fights have such huge movement that it dramatically effects dps? If there were such fights, then more specs would do around the same damage on multiple fights, instead of seeing such big gaps. Yes, having 100% uptime while moving and such would be a great niche tool, but we rarely have any fights such as that. The closest I can even think of is Blockade and being given the job to soak Ire of the Deep on progression and the fight goes long enough that they are spawning almost nonstop. As far as taking care of mechanics, Hunters don’t do this that often anymore. Sure, we can pop turtle and disengage clear fire traps on Jadefire Masters, but a Rogue can use Cloak and Sprint and still lose much less overall damage. That’s directly including a full stop in direct damage with only poisons hitting the boss.

[GreenJesus]

WW monks pla almost a set rotation. Rogues play almost set rotation. DHs prioritize highest damaging ability off CD. Warriors prioritize abilities as they come off CD. Paladins prioritize abilities in damage order. Mages cast until a proc.
That is all ST. Multi target most specs replace 1 ability for another with cleave being very little change.
For BM:
Manage a buff that affects your pet. Idea is to maintain 3 stacks at all times (not possible for 100%), while also prioritizing as some abilities come off CD around the same time. If it falls off you need to wait before using it again.
Cleave you have to weave a Multi-Shot roughly every 3rd ability to keep Beast Cleave up, and AoE is roughly the same until 5 targets and then MS overtakes some other abilities, while still maintaining as close to 3 stacks as possible.
Now, this is all relatively easy (as stated I’m not saying BM is hard) but min/max potential has a little more to it than just “easiest spec ever” and “brain dead” spec. Other specs are truly easier than BM now from a min/max standpoint.
As I also stated at another time, I don’t agree with 100% mobility meaning flat damage nerf to compensate. So little does having that 100% uptime actually make a difference or even become perceived as needed that it makes any sense, as well as classes that do not have 100% mobility doing much more damage. BM doesn’t and shouldn’t be god tier in my opinion, but this much of a gap is a little excessive.

Lol you just simplifies every class but BM hunter and then go into the minute details of BM to min max to make it seem harder. That isn't how it works. Compare min max to min max. Comparisons only work when they are apples to apples. Even paladin which many think is easy to play has Min max potential due to opener, timing of CD's, and prioritizing spells in single target or AoE. Don't get me wrong I fall asleep when playing Ret because it's pretty simple and it's my offspec and I don't care enough to min max my offspec. But BM is really simple just like how all classes are simple now. Keep bleed stack up use the pet bite ability on CD and use excess energy so you don't cap on cobra shot when hse that frenzy or something ability on CD. it's not hard.

[Mavick]

Lol you just simplifies every class but BM hunter and then go into the minute details of BM to min max to make it seem harder. That isn't how it works. Compare min max to min max. Comparisons only work when they are apples to apples.

This.

People keep spewing out simplified lines of text for random classes in attempts to make them sound simple and easy, apparently not realizing you could do literally the same thing for BM. It's just a case of trying to look like you're saying alot without actually saying anything at all.

[bullseyed]

The only reason Method's BM Hunter did not play MM is because he did not have great luck on MM gear. He was forced to play BM despite it being sub-par. He plays MM now.

Method changed to Troll for mechanic reasons, not DPS.

The DPS helped, but voodoo shuffle was the main reason. And is now nerfed so everyone gets the benefit without changing.

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Simcraft literally shows nothing at all.
DKs were good in uldir, still good in M+, don't change them at all and put them in BoD. Oh, what's that? Complete shit? How did this happen? But the sims were nice 2 months ago and the class did not change, what is this?

Since you obviously have no idea how any of this works... the main thing that changed is the ilvl of the gear. This is what is referred to as "scaling" and some classes scale better than others. For example:

If a DK ability does 500 damage + 50% of their attack power...
And a Paladin ability does 200 damage + 75% of their attack power...

The Paladin ability will start out weaker but end up stronger when it passes the breakpoint of 25% of attack power is > 300.

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Which spec "should" be last?

How large should the gap be between #1 and #24 and how do you measure it?

All of the pure DPS specs should be higher damage than all of the hybrid DPS specs.

I'm going to say either shaman, druid or DK should be the lowest, as they are hybrids with multiple DPS specs, so they can play the other one. And probably DK since both DPS specs are melee and therefore fairly interchangeable.

[Freshouttajail]

Since you obviously have no idea how any of this works... the main thing that changed is the ilvl of the gear. This is what is referred to as "scaling" and some classes scale better than others. For example:

If a DK ability does 500 damage + 50% of their attack power...
And a Paladin ability does 200 damage + 75% of their attack power...

The Paladin ability will start out weaker but end up stronger when it passes the breakpoint of 25% of attack power is > 300.

This does play a role yes but there's not enough scaling that happened in 20 or less ilvl (notice how your secondary stats barely improved from 380 to 400 and how you didn't really get that much more str) to justify abilities going from near top to bottom. The way encounters work makes a much bigger difference than that little ilvl gap.

One other thing that plays a bigger role than ilvl and ability scaling and that you forgot to mention because you're the one who don't know how any of this works, is the fact that some azerite traits for some classes are straight up nuts and being able to stack them up because we get double the traits than we used to have gives them more dmg than other less ofrtunate classes. And again, a lot of these traits are good because they work well with the encounters of this tier.

[bullseyed]

Predict movement? How shit are your tanks. And it's actually pritty punishing going into a CD without having your barbed shot stacked with spare charges to refresh it to hold the duration.

I'm getting the feeling you don't actually play bm. Because bw isn't quivilant to combustion. That would be aspect of the wild.

Befor we continue this I sugest you brush up on how bm plays in bfa.

https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/beast-...owns-abilities

Most likely he doesn't play WoW at all. Is most likely ban evading due to account age. Is obviously trolling.

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It's not salty I'm genuinely saying you need to look up BM, because it's showing that you don't know how they play in bfa.

Fire mage combustion just let's you spam instant pyros.

I'm pritty sure you are just trolling though. But My salt is entirly reserved for blizzard, for the piss poor state of the classes dispite all the feedback given in alpha and beta.

I'd also wager you didn't know marksman was 2 Button spec for 8.0 yet did silly dps on Alot of bosses in uldir. Spam steady shot till lock and load proc, hit aim shot, repeat.... Top dps in my guild... GG I'm so skillezd

SV was and is mostly a 2 button spec in BFA as well.

BM is actually the hardest of the hunter specs in BFA, as anyone who has actually played one would know.

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This does play a role yes but there's not enough scaling that happened in 20 or less ilvl (notice how your secondary stats barely improved from 380 to 400 and how you didn't really get that much more str) to justify abilities going from near top to bottom. The way encounters work makes a much bigger difference than that little ilvl gap.

One other thing that plays a bigger role than ilvl and ability scaling and that you forgot to mention because you're the one who don't know how any of this works, is the fact that some azerite traits for some classes are straight up nuts and being able to stack them up because we get double the traits than we used to have gives them more dmg than other less ofrtunate classes. And again, a lot of these traits are good because they work well with the encounters of this tier.

425 - 385 does not equal 20.

[Wilfire]

Most likely he doesn't play WoW at all. Is most likely ban evading due to account age. Is obviously trolling.

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SV was and is mostly a 2 button spec in BFA as well.

BM is actually the hardest of the hunter specs in BFA, as anyone who has actually played one would know.

Don't bother arguing with these people. They like it when hunters are down in the gutter. Keep submitting constructive feedback and Bli$$ard will eventually take notice and fix hunters. People who like it when hunters are rock bottom are not worth talking to. You can't change their bigoted minds.

[Freshouttajail]

425 - 385 does not equal 20.

That's not the ilvls we're talking about here buddy. People are looking at logs. What ilvl are people in logs? 425? Not even close, try harder, you know I'm right you just want to make the whole situation look worse than it is to win internet points. Don't give a fuck, just stop being wrong on purpose it won't work with me.

[Mavick]

This does play a role yes but there's not enough scaling that happened in 20 or less ilvl (notice how your secondary stats barely improved from 380 to 400 and how you didn't really get that much more str) to justify abilities going from near top to bottom. The way encounters work makes a much bigger difference than that little ilvl gap.

I mean, this pretty much does show how much you don't know what you're talking about and are viewing this through the lens of shit BM scaling. My MM sims went from around 19k at ~391 ilevel to now 26.6k at 413 ilevel. That is quite alot of scaling, of course a good bit of that is due to the extra traits obviously. But when you compare that to my BM sims topping out at 23.6k you can see how that doesn't scale nearly as impressively, even with the extra traits. So yeah, when you say "not enough scaling has happened" try saying that from the viewpoint of a spec that ACTUALLY SCALES.

[Eapoe]

Lol you just simplifies every class but BM hunter and then go into the minute details of BM to min max to make it seem harder. That isn't how it works. Compare min max to min max. Comparisons only work when they are apples to apples. Even paladin which many think is easy to play has Min max potential due to opener, timing of CD's, and prioritizing spells in single target or AoE. Don't get me wrong I fall asleep when playing Ret because it's pretty simple and it's my offspec and I don't care enough to min max my offspec. But BM is really simple just like how all classes are simple now. Keep bleed stack up use the pet bite ability on CD and use excess energy so you don't cap on cobra shot when hse that frenzy or something ability on CD. it's not hard.

True, but as I pointed out in numerous posts, I have never taken the stance of BM being hard, I’ve simply stated it’s not brain dead simple when it comes to min/max and performing to the specs full potential. I’ve qlso stated that there are numerous classes that are just as easy as BM to the point that saying BM is THE easiest is a dead meme that people are trying to keep alive. With the exception of Aff Lock and Feral Druid, there are very few specs that require much in the way of management and maintenance that complicates a spec at all.
I will never say BM is hard, it’s not. Bottom line. It does have a little more management to it than what people try to say about it. Multiple people in this thread are trying to state that you can play the spec however you want with no regard for CDs and just press whatever you want off CD and you will perform at the highest level BM can do.

[Mavick]

Multiple people in this thread are trying to state that you can play the spec however you want with no regard for CDs and just press whatever you want off CD and you will perform at the highest level BM can do.

Nobody is actually saying that. You're just pretending that's what was said so you can argue about nothing.