[EU] Brexit negotiations at a standstill

[Pannonian]

Perhaps EU regulations became to arcane for common comprehension and should be significantly simplified?

For example, let's take that "curved banana" example... where would i have to look to check full EU requirements for imported bananas?

How many times do you need to be told this?

This is not some arbitrary crusade against curved bananas. This regulation was implemented because trade lobbyists wanted it. You want to know the reason? Take a box and try to fit in curved bananas, then try to fit in straight bananas. So, is it that hard to understand? It's nothing arcane, because if you transport millions of bananas and cucumbers through the EU each day, saving space becomes a major issue.

Just because you cannot fathom it, doesn't mean it's arcane.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

For example, let's take that "curved banana" example... where would i have to look to check full EU requirements for imported bananas?

It took me about 30 seconds to find it:

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-cont...1R1333&from=EN

You can read it in any of the EU member state languages here:
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg_impl/2011/1333/oj


You're going to need to try harder. The EU publishes all laws and regulations in every language of the Union.

Also, the original "bendy banana" regulation that the Daily Mail likes to quote was repealed in 2012.

[Slant]

Ummm...

Helllo...

Sorry, just an actual Brit here.

Quick interjection: with respect to myself and my interactions on MMO-Champion - if there are Russian and Chinese agitators attempting to sew the seeds of discord in an attempt to destabilise etc - I'm happy to confirm they've completely failed.

I started off voting Remain with a bit of a eurosceptic contrarian in me. I'm now very firmly a europhile. The eurosceptic contrarian has been beaten out of me.

So, you're not doing a very good job.

Carry on.

Why exactly have you turned europhile? Personally, I find that I learned more about the EU in the past two years than in all the years before. It helps appreciate what we have and I'm wondering if it's the same with you.

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How many times do you need to be told this?

This is not some arbitrary crusade against curved bananas. This regulation was implemented because trade lobbyists wanted it. You want to know the reason? Take a box and try to fit in curved bananas, then try to fit in straight bananas. So, is it that hard to understand? It's nothing arcane, because if you transport millions of bananas and cucumbers through the EU each day, saving space becomes a major issue.

Just because you cannot fathom it, doesn't mean it's arcane.

There's no regulation against curved bananas. You can sell curved bananas if you like. It's just about classifications.

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It took me about 30 seconds to find it:

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-cont...1R1333&from=EN

You can read it in any of the EU member state languages here:
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg_impl/2011/1333/oj


You're going to need to try harder. The EU publishes all laws and regulations in every language of the Union.

Also, the original "bendy banana" regulation that the Daily Mail likes to quote was repealed in 2012.

Here, bookmark this... it'll help you in the future: https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK...ths-a-z-index/

As for curved bananas... https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK...-and-brussels/

[dffsdsdsddfsdfsdfdfssdfdf]

Seems like literally any one who posts here who doesn't believe in the neoliberal consensus gets deleted, so you get this echo chamber of Blairites, eurotrash and...whatever Mehrunes is.

This is why I create a new id every time I want to post on here.

[Shalcker]

It took me about 30 seconds to find it:

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-cont...1R1333&from=EN

Thanks.

You're going to need to try harder. The EU publishes all laws and regulations in every language of the Union.

Clearly i was missing some keyword to get there; hopefully this sample will make it easier to find something similar later.

Also, the original "bendy banana" regulation that the Daily Mail likes to quote was repealed in 2012.

Well... back to question then... where can i check current ones? Your link says 2011.

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This is not some arbitrary crusade against curved bananas. This regulation was implemented because trade lobbyists wanted it. You want to know the reason? Take a box and try to fit in curved bananas, then try to fit in straight bananas. So, is it that hard to understand? It's nothing arcane, because if you transport millions of bananas and cucumbers through the EU each day, saving space becomes a major issue.

Nothing wrong with arbitrary restrictions to protect your own producers. Russia has done plenty of those, permanent or temporary; EU justification in Slant's link is the same - "2) These standards should improve the quality of bananas produced within the Community. They should thus be able to command a higher price in the Community markets. This should also help reduce Community aid and therefore relieve pressure on the Community budget."

Basic protectionism.

Obviously this isn't interesting to Brits because they don't produce bananas themselves, only consume them; and now outside of EU it might make sense for them to "protect" different banana-producing territories and give preference to their kind of bananas.

[Mehrunes]

So, they have no choice but to remain convenient scapegoats, is that what you're saying?

They cannot talk to same people and give their own version that would be convincing enough for same population?

...and yet in the same breath they expect their recommendations to be followed?

It's literally in the post that you replied to here how EU already made that information public knowledge. What more do you need? For Tusk to personally break into UK houses, tie people there up and recite to them how EU actually works, despite the fact they are clearly not interested in the topic?

Perhaps EU regulations became to arcane for common comprehension and should be significantly simplified?

For example, let's take that "curved banana" example... where would i have to look to check full EU requirements for imported bananas?

You're moving the goalpost. And you chose pretty much the worst example given how this particular piece of legislation not only has its own Wikipedia page, but also has a bajillion news articles written about it. Other than that, https://europa.eu/european-union/law...legislation_en

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

Well... back to question then... where can i check current ones? Your link says 2011.

The regulation passed in 2011 replaced the one from 1995 when it came into effect in 2012.

[Mehrunes]

Seems like literally any one who posts here who doesn't believe in the neoliberal consensus gets deleted, so you get this echo chamber of Blairites, eurotrash and...whatever Mehrunes is.

This is why I create a new id every time I want to post on here.

The answer to what I am is apparently someone who made you salty enough to engage in ban avoidance and flinging shit in my direction. You missed by the way, since I'm a social democrat. Kinda far cry from laissez faire and third way nonsense on which noeliberalism stands on. Then again, "neoliberal consensus" is clearly your amazing buzzword for everyone that disagrees with you.

Or maybe you should just wait for your original account to be unbanned and use that. You are clearly ban dodging so you are getting deleted not because of your opinion (which beyond the graphic overuse of the word "cunt" does not seem really that infractable) but because you refuse to follow the rules. At some point the moderators can no longer trust you to be in this site.

Given their complaints, I'm assuming that person made some other accounts and spammed this thread and their posts got deleted with their ban-avoiding accounts? If so, did I miss anything particularly interesting?

[Slant]

Seems like literally any one who posts here who doesn't believe in the neoliberal consensus gets deleted, so you get this echo chamber of Blairites, eurotrash and...whatever Mehrunes is.

This is why I create a new id every time I want to post on here.

Anyone using words like "neoliberal" doesn't have a clue of what he's talking about on this forum, I feel. It's one of those easy buzzwords that people use to sound intelligent but when you think about it, it doesn't even make any fucking sense.

Brexiteers accuse the EU of over-regulating and well, sometimes fascism. Those are opposites of "liberalism". And then, of course there's the hinted criticism that "consensus" is somehow a bad thing. It's not. It's the point of democracy, to form a consensus of some sort using compromises so we can make a decision that everyone can get behind.

Of course, there's the glaringly obvious tell-tales of "echo chamber", "Blairites", "Eurotrash" that seal the deal and discredit this and the inevitable follow-up burner accounts as the joke that they are.

The truly sad story is that any genuinely new user on this forum is doomed, because he'll have to suffer through prejudice until he gets a couple posts under his belt and/or has people patient enough to read through the entire post to figure out if he's genuine or just an another asshat account. Luckily, the moderate people on here seem to have a near infinite amount of patience, so if anyone new wants to post... don't feel frightened.

Yes, even you Brexiteers. I've waited for 2 years, but you've still got a month to bring a coherent argument pro Brexit to the table.

[dffsdsdsddfsdfsdfdfssdfdf]

The answer to what I am is apparently someone who made you salty enough to engage in ban avoidance and flinging shit in my direction. You missed by the way, since I'm a social democrat. Kinda far cry from laissez faire and third way nonsense on which noeliberalism stands on. Then again, "neoliberal consensus" is clearly your amazing buzzword for everyone that disagrees with you.

Blair and Nick Clegg were supposed to be social democrats. In practice they just enacted right-wing policies and took backhanders from corporations. Same with Obama, Macron, and many others.

I don't know whether your beliefs are genuine, but it hardly matters since if these people ever gain any power they behave indistinguishably from Tories.

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Or maybe you should just wait for your original account to be unbanned and use that. You are clearly ban dodging so you are getting deleted not because of your opinion (which beyond the graphic overuse of the word "cunt" does not seem really that infractable) but because you refuse to follow the rules. At some point the moderators can no longer trust you to be in this site.

The issue is more with the moderators. There was a certain vocal neo-fascist contingent that they refused to take action against, so it became necessary to use extra-procedural methods to deal with that. If they'd done their job properly in the first place it wouldn't have been necessary for me to do that.

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Anyone using words like "neoliberal" doesn't have a clue of what he's talking about on this forum, I feel. It's one of those easy buzzwords that people use to sound intelligent but when you think about it, it doesn't even make any fucking sense.

Brexiteers accuse the EU of over-regulating and well, sometimes fascism. Those are opposites of "liberalism". And then, of course there's the hinted criticism that "consensus" is somehow a bad thing. It's not. It's the point of democracy, to form a consensus of some sort using compromises so we can make a decision that everyone can get behind.

I'm not a Brexiteer, I just have a reflexive dislike of Germans telling me how my country should be run. It is kind of obnoxious. I don't tell you who to vote for or how to behave.

[LeGin Tufnel]

Why exactly have you turned europhile? Personally, I find that I learned more about the EU in the past two years than in all the years before. It helps appreciate what we have and I'm wondering if it's the same with you.

Yes, it's exactly this: improved understanding, knowledge, engagement. I benefit from the UK's membership of the EU far more than I don't benefit. Some stuff I was just flat out wrong about / misinformed. Important to admit when one is wrong and to encourage political class to do the same. My scepticism re. some wider issues e.g., fiscal union of any othe countries than France, Germany & Benelux remains, but is minor in comparison.

Sad thing is it's too late, eh?

[Slant]

Yes, it's exactly this: improved understanding, knowledge, engagement. I benefit from the UK's membership of the EU far more than I don't benefit. Some stuff I was just flat out wrong about / misinformed. Important to admit when one is wrong and to encourage political class to do the same. My scepticism re. some wider issues e.g., fiscal union of any othe countries than France, Germany & Benelux remains, but is minor in comparison.

Sad thing is it's too late, eh?

It's never too late. Even if you crash out now, the door will always be open for rejoining at a later stage. Perhaps the UK needs a timeout to sort its political issues out and when they rejoin, they're stronger and can contribute more to the EU willingly than being the eternal unwilling participant that they were in the past. This can be an opportunity.

[Shalcker]

The regulation passed in 2011 replaced the one from 1995 when it came into effect in 2012.

So, i went to check 1994 version and language there is exactly the same as 2011 version, word-for-word.

Both contain "abnormal curvature". None define where "abnormal" starts. Comparing them shows no change in any requirements at all. Same list of classes. The only thing added is "marketing standards" section and clarification on which bodies should be making those checks as well as required notifications to the Comission.

What was repealed in 2008 then? (it shows up on top of Google search for bent bananas now)

What kind of misdirection is this really? 2011 regulation replaced 1994 that haven't changed a word in requirements? :/

How does that suddenly invalidate any articles about it???

...wait, that 2008 article was just hope that "Imperfectly-shaped fruit and vegetables may now be back on supermarket shelves by 2009" as result of ridiculed 1994 regulation reform? ...reform that went up to 2011 to produce results that are word-for-word identical to ridiculed 1994 regulation?


--- in substantive changes,
1994 version had
"As an exception to the last paragraph, bananas produced in Madeira, the Azores, the Algarve, Crete and Lakonia which are less than 14 cm in length may be marketed in the Community but must be classified in Class II."

Where 2011 version has
"As an exception to the third paragraph, bananas produced in Madeira, the Azores, the Algarve, Crete, Lakonia and Cyprus which are less than 14 cm in length may be marketed in the Union but must be classified in Class II."
Cyprus added, okay.

And 1994 "The bananas must be presented in hands or clusters (parts of hands) of at least four fingers." is replaced with 2011 "The bananas must be presented in hands or clusters (parts of hands) of at least four fingers. Bananas may also be presented as single fingers."

Change in identification form.

And one "Community" replaced by "Union".

That's it.

[Shalcker]

you are about 600 pages late to talk about bananas

I just wanted to see it for myself, and really, after looking into it it's /facepalm worthy...

The fact that people seem to think something changed when nothing actually changed :/

That seems to be commonly repeated EU approach. Say you are changing something, wait for media hype to die out, change almost nothing at all.

Or perhaps they just linked to wrong requirements? Unlikely, but that would be working for my other argument that EU rules are too arcane for common man (like people on this forum).

[Slant]

That's it.

https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK...-and-brussels/

Stop talking about bananas, nobody gives a shit about bananas. It's a deflection and trying to derail the thread.

[Shalcker]

https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK...-and-brussels/

Stop talking about bananas, nobody gives a shit about bananas. It's a deflection and trying to derail the thread.

I've looked into it deeper and entire thing seem to go up from 2008 EU ban on selling second-class produce in supermarket - that is, actually making store managers potentially criminally liable for selling it, not just fining the company. That is, yes, there was a point at which bent bananas were indeed banned based on intersection of 1994 regulation on banana classes and later decision to ban selling class 2 in retail.

It was rightfully seen as extreme overreach and apparently this ban was lifted in 2009 (though finding exact decision seems to be tricky) and, i guess, second-class can be sold now as long as it is clearly marked as such.

Banana classes remain exactly as they were in 1994 though.

That is still pretty weird; i feel not so much shape though but size is main protectionist measure - specifically that "As an exception to the third paragraph, bananas produced in Madeira, the Azores, the Algarve, Crete, Lakonia and Cyprus which are less than 14 cm in length may be marketed in the Union but must be classified in Class II." - that is, anything below 14 centimeters, regardless of other qualities, gets relegated to Class II automatically (with accompanying reduction of prices and farmer profits, i would assume) from designated countries, and, i would assume, cannot be sold at all from other countries.

[Shalcker]

i dont even have a scooby what point you are making or what you are on about at this point, absolute pish

I just wanted to take a dive into EU regulation and see how easy it actually is to get to the bottom of something from "available information online anyone could check".

Well, it doesn't look easy at all. Too many things branching from each other. Innocent regulation can become not-so-innocent in an instant and you would never know looking at it in isolation; and there are just 7 documents short of 5 thousand total on bananas alone in the database.

[Shalcker]

what are you talking about, i type bendy banana myth into google i get http://www.europarl.europa.eu/united...dybananas.html
its a pretty basic read, dunno what you a struggling with, even the regulations are straight forward even a layman can understand this
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-cont...1R1333&from=EN

Where exactly does this or any other regulation says what is appropriate for Class II banana usage? What are their limitations compared to 'Extra Class' and 'Class I'?

Certainly it cannot be meaningless distinction, but how this classification is used is not mentioned in linked document. Is it just marketing? Or something more? How can i tell?

There is also the point that "The minimum length permitted is 14 cm and the minimum grade permitted is 27 mm." - and, that would seem, anything less is not allowed, not just relegated to Class II, except for several named EU-related country exceptions in next paragraph which can relegate them to Class II instead.

[Shalcker]

(iii) Class II
This class covers bananas which do not qualify for inclusion in the higher classes but satisfy the minimum requirements specified above.
The following defects of the fingers are allowed, provided the bananas retain their essential characteristics as regards quality, keeping quality and presentation:
— defects of shape,
— skin defects due to scraping, rubbing or other causes, provided that the total area affected does not cover more than 4 cm2 of the surface of the finger.
Under no circumstances may the defects affect the flesh of the fruit.

its in the regs u just arent reading it.
why are u dying on this hill lmao

annex 1 u prawn try scrolling down

That's definition, not usage. Do you even understand the question?

Show me the document that says what you can do with Extra Class/Class I bananas that you cannot with Class II (other then having to mark them differently).

Also... what can you do with something that does not satisfy minimum marketing requirements? Not even Class II?

Something like otherwise perfect 10 cm banana not from "allowed as Class-II" country list?

[gtyuiopa]

You can buy banana's of all sorts in Europe, small and weirdly shaped it's just a classification, this is just a something the pedantic like to bring up because they think they have some kind of point with it.

Again stop feeding Shackler already.

This is the third time you have said "don't talk to the guy who disagrees with me". It gets tiresome. It isn't that difficult to refute his points, the "bendy bananas" is one of the oldest tropes in the UK, you'd think you could come up with a counter-argument in 40 years. It is a fair assumption that you, acidbaron and the other people who use this non-engagement strategy just aren't clever enough to do anything other than repeat stuff that you saw on the television.

It seems like the centre-leftists/eurotrash favour a process of disengagement and procedural manipulation in general. So we get serial bans for any one not in favour of the neoliberal consensus, we get you people trying to overturn a democratic mandate. In the Labour party you get centre leftists trying to stab the leader in the back resoundingly rebuffed by the membership.

You people are the most illiberal liberals in human history.

Eventually you end up with < 10% of the vote talking to yourselves oblivious to what is happening in the world. Actually, that is already happening.