Tinker's spec speculation. What's yours?

[therealstegblob]

My argument is that "healing" in technology is way too rare, relatively speaking, to warrant a full healing spec for a tech class without making the healer spec basically an alchemy-based spec.

This Is Not A Good Argument (c).

[Jekyll]

If hunters can store frost magic in their traps, I'm sure Tinkers can store some sort of healing power in their ammunition, grenades and robots.

[Teriz]

If hunters can store frost magic in their traps, I'm sure Tinkers can store some sort of healing power in their ammunition, grenades and robots.

Monks and Rogues can manufacture potions just like alchemists, and Hunters can mass produce grenades that are better than Engineering grenades.

This is a classic example of holding a class concept you dislike to a different standard than the existing classes you should be comparing them to.

[Nathanyel]

This Is Not A Good Argument (c).

TINAGA... gotta remember that.

[In Ogres We Trust]

Alchemist (Healer)
Bombardier (Ranged DPS)
Mech <insert name> (Melee DPS)
Mech <insert name> (Tank)

[Ielenia]

Well since you have no problem with Monks making concoctions, you should have no issue with Tinkers being able to make concoctions.

Except the monks, even without brews and teas, mistweaver monks can still heal. Without alchemy, a tech class is not healing.

What about Energizing Elixir and Healing Elixir?

Also last I checked, cooking is also a profession that costs money and materials to produce. Their entire tanking spec revolves around the use of Brews.

"Elixir" is also not exclusive to alchemy, considering one of its definitions is "a sweet, aromatic alcoholic solution".

Actually I didn't. I asked you for an example of a RPG Monk that can rapidly manufacture potions, brews, and teas.

Nope. You asked for a trope that involves producing and using potions. Right from the get-go you're wrong because monks don't use alchemy, but simple brewing of drinks. Cooking. On top of that, you're moving goal-posts because now you're adding "rapidly" to your original requests. And my previous statement still stands: look at any animated show showcasing oriental martial arts and you'll see those monks using teas and brews.

As for "shooting healing beams or healing mists", the 'mist' thing is something that is exclusive to WoW, but healing? No way, no how. Here's Ragnarok Online monks using spirits, and healing with them. The D3 Monk can also heal, himself and others.

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If they're administering it through technological means, then it is technology. If they create the sprays/potions through non-magical means, then that is Chemistry.

Except there is no such thing as "chemistry" in WoW. It's alchemy.

Gnomeregan is also a relic of the past. That's like saying we can't have Kung Fu themed Monks because
of Scarlet Monastery and Auchenai Crypts. It's an argument from silence, you're using what didn't exist in WoW to make a point of it not existing now.

Death Knights are champions of the Scourge and the Scourge would never join our factions. Wrath created an event that gave Death Knights back their individuality and the ability to defect from the Lich King. It retcon'd everything we knew about Death Knights prior to WoW. A Tinker isn't even defined in WoW and is a blank slate. There are no creative or historic limits to a Tinker when they don't formally exist; just like the Death Knights we have in WoW are specifically NEW Death Knights and have nothing to do with the older generations that existed in Naxxramas, Stratholme or War3.

I'm not really sure if the 'monk' example fits, considering there is a very clear distinction, trope-wise, between western and oriental monks. As for "argument from silence"... it doesn't really fit, which is my point. This isn't the case of monks that were few and far between pre-MoP. Technologh is spread far and wide, and every single expansion featured more and more examples of technology. Gnomeregan in vanilla, the goblin and gnome outpousts in Blade's Edge Mountains and Netherstorm in TBC, Ulduar and flying ships in Wrath, town-in-a-box in Cataclysm, the whole thing with Siegecrafter Blackfuse in MoP, the Iron Horde in WoD, etc etc.

And Overwatch has plenty of characters that heal using technology, some of which can be the theme for Tinkers. Ana, for example, uses healing darts and healing grenades. That's what the Tinker can use without the use of Potions whatsoever.

Overwatch isn't even the same universe as Warcraft. That's like me pointing at Archmage Khadgar as a reasoning why Jim Raynor should be able to casts spells.

Their theme is Technology, and Chemistry can be a part of that theme.

Not in WoW. They're separate. Alchemy is separate from engineering.

[derpkitteh]

Death Knights are champions of the Scourge and the Scourge would never join our factions. Wrath created an event that gave Death Knights back their individuality and the ability to defect from the Lich King. It retcon'd everything we knew about Death Knights prior to WoW. A Tinker isn't even defined in WoW and is a blank slate. There are no creative or historic limits to a Tinker when they don't formally exist; just like the Death Knights we have in WoW are specifically NEW Death Knights and have nothing to do with the older generations that existed in Naxxramas, Stratholme or War3.

it didn't retcon anything.

these are third generation death knights, a new generation created in a different way. the 1st gen were orc warlock souls placed in the bodies of fallen human knights, the 2nd gen were paladins and others who became evil and swore their selves to the scourge willingly.

nothing was retconned about them joining, either. arthas' power waned again, due to the light of light's hope, and their minds were able to be freed, just like the forsaken did. it also helped that an incredibly exceptional individual like darion mograine was in charge at the time.

[Triceron]

Overwatch isn't even the same universe as Warcraft. That's like me pointing at Archmage Khadgar as a reasoning why Jim Raynor should be able to casts spells.

Yes, that would be accurate if we were talking about magic being added to Starcraft. We could equate that to characters that use magic that already exist to establish a base concept.

High Templar cast spells. It isnt exactly magic but you could easily see they use spell-like abilities and consider them a mage-type of unit because they only cast spells and have no physicial attack. In laymans terms, that is a spellcaster. Thats even how the unit is described in Starcraft. It was often compared to the mage in WC2.

Not in WoW. They're separate. Alchemy is separate from engineering.

If you can say monks dont use alchemy, then you could say TInkers dont either.

What happens if a TInker takes alchemy profession, are theu double alchemists?

[Teriz]

Except the monks, even without brews and teas, mistweaver monks can still heal. Without alchemy, a tech class is not healing.

Monks can't tank without their brews.

"Elixir" is also not exclusive to alchemy.....

In Warcraft it is.

Nope. You asked for a trope that involves producing and using potions. Right from the get-go you're wrong because monks don't use alchemy, but simple brewing of drinks. Cooking. On top of that, you're moving goal-posts because now you're adding "rapidly" to your original requests. And my previous statement still stands: look at any animated show showcasing oriental martial arts and you'll see those monks using teas and brews.

I said RPG tropes.

Additionally I've already pointed out how Monks use Alchemy. Rogues also use Alchemy, and Hunters use Engineering, yet for some reason you have no issue with that, but have an issue with Tinkers following a similar path of existing classes for their abilities. Again, you're simply applying standards to the Tinker concept that don't apply to existing classes.

As for "shooting healing beams or healing mists", the 'mist' thing is something that is exclusive to WoW, but healing? No way, no how. Here's Ragnarok Online monks using spirits, and healing with them. The D3 Monk can also heal, himself and others.

Which is what I said in the beginning of this discussion. There was zero example of Monks healing in WoW prior to the introduction of the Monk class, however Blizzard used standard RPG Monk tropes for the class to justify a healing spec. Tinkers would be no different, and they have the added bonus of already being shown to have healing abilities in WoW.

BTW, Engineers in GW2 also utilize alchemy for healing and support.

[Triceron]

it didn't retcon anything.

these are third generation death knights, a new generation created in a different way. the 1st gen were orc warlock souls placed in the bodies of fallen human knights, the 2nd gen were paladins and others who became evil and swore their selves to the scourge willingly.

nothing was retconned about them joining, either. arthas' power waned again, due to the light of light's hope, and their minds were able to be freed, just like the forsaken did. it also helped that an incredibly exceptional individual like darion mograine was in charge at the time.

You are right, retcon was the wrong word in this case. Wrath changed what we expected of Death Knights capabilities.

I mainly refer to their ability to retain any individual freedom away from the scourge, and the newly found ability to use frost and blood magic. It changed our perception of the unholy, undyingly loyal champion of the scourge. The entire concept of a death knight changed to fit a mold of a player class, expanding itself to themes it did not carry before.

Just like Shamans expanded using totems where they were only used by Troll voodoo practitioners. They adopted that as part of their WoW identity and carried it forward since

[Ielenia]

Yes, that would be accurate if we were talking about magic being added to Starcraft. We could equate that to characters that use magic that already exist to establish a base concept.

High Templar cast spells. It isnt exactly magic but you could easily see they use spell-like abilities and consider them a mage-type of unit because they only cast spells and have no physicial attack. In laymans terms, that is a spellcaster. Thats even how the unit is described in Starcraft. It was often compared to the mage in WC2.

The point has gone through your head, it seems. The point is that they're different universes with different rules. The technology in Warcraft is linked to and uses magic.

If you can say monks dont use alchemy, then you could say TInkers dont either.

They don't.

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Monks can't tank without their brews.

The monk would still have most of its attacks, and a few cooldowns. They can still function, just like removing the 'gadget' component of the hunter would still let it be a hunter. It's not removing a crucial thing like removing the weapon from a warrior, or magic from a mage.

In Warcraft it is.

I'll concede. True. I was certain there was a drink that had 'elixir' in the name, in the game. Either I'm miss-remembering things or it was removed. Oh well. However, we only have 2 "elixir" abilities in the monk class.

I said RPG tropes.

And I gave you the real life example the tropes are based from. But if it's tropes you want, just look at any TV show or movie that showcases oriental martial arts and/or is based in the Orient and you'll see your tropes.

Additionally I've already pointed out how Monks use Alchemy.

Cooking.

Rogues also use Alchemy, and Hunters use Engineering, yet for some reason you have no issue with that, but have an issue with Tinkers following a similar path of existing classes for their abilities.

There is a difference between 'using' and 'based around'. A 'tech class' healer would most likely be mostly based around the application of alchemical concoctions, judging by how little 'healing' we see and have seen from technology in WoW, with the vast majority of the few instances requiring heavy usage of items outside the tinker's expertise, like bandages and healing potions.

Which is what I said in the beginning of this discussion. There was zero example of Monks healing in WoW prior to the introduction of the Monk class, however Blizzard used standard RPG Monk tropes for the class to justify a healing spec. Tinkers would be no different, and they have the added bonus of already being shown to have healing abilities in WoW.

Except there were basically zero examples of monks doing anything in WoW other than throwing awkward punches and smacking you with a staff, which is what gave Blizzard the freedom to be creative. However, it's not the same case with technology. It has been in the 'spotlight' since Warcraft 3 with the flying machines, and only made 'bigger' with WoW and each subsequent expansion, and yet 'tech healing' has so very very rarely touched upon or even expanded.

BTW, Engineers in GW2 also utilize alchemy for healing and support.

Then go play GW2?

[Triceron]

The point

No, the point is actually that there are no rules and Blizzard defines them however they wish, as well as breaks them as they wish.

We came off an expansion where every Paladin wielded the Ashbringer. Logic has no place in WoW, so trying to apply logic to potions and Tinkers is as futile as arguing that every Paladin having Ashbringer doesnt make sense. Well, yeah, because lore isnt gonna explain away why everyone has one.

Tinkers can be whatever Blizzard wants them to be. Tinkers can do whatever they want them to do. They are not bound by any rules established by professions or... Whatever arbitrary universe rules you deem sacred.

In just one patch, they explained away Archimondes death and rendered it a setback. No rule is sacred.

[Traveler Voltin]

i think Siegebreaker would make a cool spec name.

[DotEleven]

It's still irrelevant because you're trying to equate a resource that is readily available everywhere around you at all times with a limited resource that is not always readily available and must be restocked on your next trip to the nearest town.


I'm sorry, but healing concoctions are alchemy.


I'm not.

How?

So game mechanics are a valid argument, then? In this case, since the item can only be used once per fight, that makes the potion cost negligible, hence why it doesn't cost potions to make.


Yes, it is. 100% irrelevant because those are nowhere near the same thing.

It's not readily available, you have to sit and wait and let your mana recharge. It's not like you have an unlimited source, you go oom and have to wait. In that time they could easily go to the store and stock up.

They are alchemy, doesn't mean others can't use them. Which is literally your whole point "They can't use them cause they're alchemy" which is actually a kind of science.

You are. You've literally had arguments about how you need to have a ton of potions and how 1 potion only heals for x amount.

Because science and technology. There's nothing to say the tinkers devices can't strengthen the potions in some way shape or form. Even if only to denounce your stupid arguments.

That's just that belt. Maybe their other technology doesn't have a cooldown. Or maybe that's just one of their longer cooldowns. The tinker could easily work different with mana infused technology allowing a shortened cooldown.

It is incredibly relevant. I've already explained multiple times how the same type of substance can be considered a diffferent ability based on the source. Coming from a flask, it's an alchemist ability, coming from a syringe fired from a gun, it's a tinkers ability. Just like how depending upon whether it's from the fel, arcane, or elements a fire spell can be a warlock, mage, or shaman ability. The fact that all you can say is "no" shows you have no idea how to refute this point.

[Dastreus]

"Mage is not a class, it's a profession, and it's already in the game" you could say about enchanting. It's equally silly.
_ _

OnT: I'd like the tank spec to be able to glyph for a lightforged warframe.

Enchanting affects your gear. Mages cast spells. Where is the similarity??

[Mighty Parrot]

Ideas for Tinker Spec

Tankerton: Ride in a mech, taunting your enemies. (Gelbin/Gazlow (there is a Gnome, but I forget the gnome party in Islands)
Rangertron: Deals in supporting attacks and creating small bots/turrets to deal damage (like Gazlow and his backpack robot from HoTS)
Speediron: melee mech class that deals damage and using boosts to get in close or away from the enemy. (mech unit they ride is fragile)
Meditron: healer class that uses mobile bots, range (healing!) weapons, and assorted items to keep the health of the tank and their allies up. (Something like a cross of Ana from Overwatch and the gnome from the islands that uses heal bots)

[GMZohar1]

I think Gazlow in Island Expeditions is a good example of how the class should work, fighting in robots, summoning heal-bots etc etc..

[Teriz]

The monk would still have most of its attacks, and a few cooldowns. They can still function, just like removing the 'gadget' component of the hunter would still let it be a hunter. It's not removing a crucial thing like removing the weapon from a warrior, or magic from a mage.

Except Keg smash is a key aspect of their rotation with multiple abilities depending on it, Ironbrew and Purifying Brew are key components of their mitigation, and Fortifying Brew is their core cooldown. If you remove those you have to change how the spec plays completely, not to mention the spec itself is called Brewmaster.

I'll concede. True. I was certain there was a drink that had 'elixir' in the name, in the game. Either I'm miss-remembering things or it was removed. Oh well. However, we only have 2 "elixir" abilities in the monk class.

So why can't the Tinker create two alchemic potions to use for their healing spec?

And I gave you the real life example the tropes are based from. But if it's tropes you want, just look at any TV show or movie that showcases oriental martial arts and/or is based in the Orient and you'll see your tropes.

But I asked for an RPG trope, so please find a game or RPG where Monks are manufacturing teas, potions, and brews while in combat.

Cooking.

Last I checked, Cooking was also a WoW profession that required supplies and regeants just like Alchemy.

There is a difference between 'using' and 'based around'.

So now you're going to argue that the Brewmaster spec isn't based around brewing?

Except there were basically zero examples of monks doing anything in WoW other than throwing awkward punches and smacking you with a staff, which is what gave Blizzard the freedom to be creative. However, it's not the same case with technology. It has been in the 'spotlight' since Warcraft 3 with the flying machines, and only made 'bigger' with WoW and each subsequent expansion, and yet 'tech healing' has so very very rarely touched upon or even expanded.

I wouldn't call Scarlet Monks, Risen Monks, Argent Monks, Auchenai Monks, Crimson Monks, or Eramas Brightblaze "zero examples". They had abilities like Fist of Fury and Meditation.

Then go play GW2?

Just pointing out that engineer classes in other RPGs aren't strangers to using chemicals and alchemy.

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I think Gazlow in Island Expeditions is a good example of how the class should work, fighting in robots, summoning heal-bots etc etc..

Hopefully fighting in robots is the core attribute of the class. That would be a great way to make the class feel unique and "cool".

[Ielenia]

No, the point is actually that there are no rules and Blizzard defines them however they wish, as well as breaks them as they wish.

We came off an expansion where every Paladin wielded the Ashbringer. Logic has no place in WoW, so trying to apply logic to potions and Tinkers is as futile as arguing that every Paladin having Ashbringer doesnt make sense. Well, yeah, because lore isnt gonna explain away why everyone has one.

Tinkers can be whatever Blizzard wants them to be. Tinkers can do whatever they want them to do. They are not bound by any rules established by professions or... Whatever arbitrary universe rules you deem sacred.

In just one patch, they explained away Archimondes death and rendered it a setback. No rule is sacred.

You're making a mess of an argument. Yes, every paladin wielded the Ashbringer in the Legion... but only for the sake of customization. Story-wise, only your character wielded the Ashbringer. So much so that if you saw another paladin with a bodyguard, say, Vindicator Boros or Arator the Redeemer, you'd just see them accompanied by a generic Silver Hand NPC.

The reason you saw all retribution paladins wielding Ashbringer is because of character customization. There is logic in WoW.

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It's not readily available,

Yes, it is readily available. Your argument about having to recharge mana doesn't work because it renews by itself and you do not depend on any external crafted item or device to recharge it.

They are alchemy, doesn't mean others can't use them. Which is literally your whole point

Which shows how little you actually read and/or have not been following the conversation yet jumped right into an assumption. My argument is that a tech healing class would depend too much on alchemy to not be simply 'based around alchemy', considering there is so very few examples of actual healing technology that doesn't depend on alchemy, considering the widespread presence of technology in WoW.

You are. You've literally had arguments about how you need to have a ton of potions and how 1 potion only heals for x amount.

So you're agreeing with me? Because I'm not saying "1 potion = 1 heal".

That's just that belt. Maybe their other technology doesn't have a cooldown. Or maybe that's just one of their longer cooldowns. The tinker could easily work different with mana infused technology allowing a shortened cooldown.

A healer spec based around alchemy wouldn't be a 'tech spec', in my opinion, it'd be an 'alchemy spec', which is why I say a tech class would not have a healing spec.

It is incredibly relevant.

No, it is irrelevant, because healing potions aren't an infinite resource that is readily available, all the time, everywhere around you no matter where you go, like magic. Potions have to be crafted by someone, and are made in limited supplies.

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Except Keg smash is a key aspect of their rotation with multiple abilities depending on it, Ironbrew and Purifying Brew are key components of their mitigation, and Fortifying Brew is their core cooldown. If you remove those you have to change how the spec plays completely, not to mention the spec itself is called Brewmaster.

The monk can still attack, can still dodge, and can still defend himself. My argument is that a 'healing' tinker without alchemy is like a marskman hunter without ammo.

So why can't the Tinker create two alchemic potions to use for their healing spec?

Who said they create alchemic potions?

But I asked for an RPG trope, so please find a game or RPG where Monks are manufacturing teas, potions, and brews while in combat.

So now you're moving goalposts again, modifying the original request by adding "manufacturing stuff during combat" and narrowing down the tropes to just the RPGs. Look how different your request is now from your original request:

Please find the oriental martial arts trope that involves Monks producing and using potions.

No "RPG-only", no "creating stuff during combat". What's next? Going to add the caveat that you'll accept only monks trained by pandas?

Last I checked, Cooking was also a WoW profession that required supplies and regeants just like Alchemy.

Yeah. But it requires much simpler reagents and does not require complicated expertise to prepare ahead of time.

So now you're going to argue that the Brewmaster spec isn't based around brewing?

It's not. It's based around martial arts, with beers being the 'flavor'. Just like mistweaving is not based around tea.

I wouldn't call Scarlet Monks, Risen Monks, Argent Monks, Auchenai Monks, Crimson Monks, or Eramas Brightblaze "zero examples". They had abilities like Fist of Fury and Meditation.

One: I said basically zero. There's a diffference.
Two: it shows how much you had to stretch to find those examples considering "scarlet monks" and "risen monks" are the exact same characters, the only difference is that the former existed before the Cataclysm expansion, before being transformed into the latter, and "crimson monks" do not exist.
Three: all of those were based on the western fantasy of the monk, not the eastern.

Just pointing out that engineer classes in other RPGs aren't strangers to using chemicals and alchemy.

Yeah. And "other RPGs" aren't WoW. In WoW, technology only very very very rarely heals, and engineering and alchemy are separate "sciences".

[Xath]

My prediction the class doesn't happen especially if they try to tie it to only gnomes and goblins which have tiny tiny playerbases for a reason.