I don't like BFA dungeons and here's why

[Softbottom]

I think the biggest disconnect is that the devs don't think this should be a thing, and they think that we should understand that (I mean I get it, which is why I don't touch M+, but that's just me). If I were to guess, I'd think that the devs *would* say "normal and heroic are there waiting for you," but PR clearly won't let them say that haha.

It doesn't change their clear and obvious intent though.

They seem to have forgot how to create entertaining content that is fun and provides reasonable rewards in a group type setting. Punishing content you overgear that provides mediocre gear is not fun or rewarding. I think legion was spot on with this with their iteration of m+.

[Jastall]

I think the biggest disconnect is that the devs don't think this should be a thing, and they think that we should understand that (I mean I get it, which is why I don't touch M+, but that's just me). If I were to guess, I'd think that the devs *would* say "normal and heroic are there waiting for you," but PR clearly won't let them say that haha.

It doesn't change their clear and obvious intent though.

Well yeah, that's what lower keys are supposed to be, the place where you relax, but they throw too many affixes and mechanics in it, on top of the baseline dungeons being so overloaded with densely packed trash. So the experience is actually more fun in a more high-end, competitive setting than in a pug, where Legion kinda had the opposite with trash that mostly fell over and bosses that could spank you very hard.

[potis]

I think the biggest disconnect is that the devs don't think this should be a thing, and they think that we should understand that (I mean I get it, which is why I don't touch M+, but that's just me). If I were to guess, I'd think that the devs *would* say "normal and heroic are there waiting for you," but PR clearly won't let them say that haha.

It doesn't change their clear and obvious intent though.

No, they arent disconnected, thats why you have +1 to +30, because they arent disconnected.

If WoW was what it was, you would simply have a HC version and a +10 with all the affixes combined and they would tell you "Deal with it".

PR team doesnt let them say "Yeah how about you learn the game and then complain, we dumbed it down so much and the majority of you still suck at it" because in the world of 2010 and after all you get is "HOW DARE YOU TALK TO ME WHEN I PAY FOR YOUR GAME".

[seasy]

BFA Trash Mobs just have to many abilites.

My favorite example is always underrot vs neltharions lair.

UR: The small mobs stack a debuff on the tank and explode, the worm does insane damage if you dont move/intercept him, the patrol does a sick aoe buff and an aoe cleave, wonly 2 classes can dispell the buff, the priester has 3 different casts, of which 1 has to be interupted, preferable 2 if you dont have a dispell, a melee mob which randomly attacks any1 & roots people, especially deadly w/ the aoe cleave & lastly a big guy who channels some damage on 1 person and has a must have interupt for his aoe spell.

And thats only 1/3 of the mob types in Underrot

NL: Small mobs dont do anything, big scorpions can be just aoe'd, worms burrow themself to reset aggro, big giant guys who need an intercept when they cast something and some tauren dudes.

Meanwhile you also get almost twice as much % compared to underrot.

Its okay if you need to play well and good, but fuck me it gets exhausting. Sometimes I just wanna aoe like I could in arcway, hov, karazharn, votw or nl (depending on the affixes).

The thing is not all abilities are scary or deadly.
m+ would be really boring if you could just aoe spam all the trash and you never take any damage.
Underrot for example : You don't need to play the small adds, you can skip the big pack on the bridge with invis pots or shroud, you can sidestep the cleave from matrons and interrupt or stun the bloodhexer hell you can even spellsteal the g'huun cast.


I think it's great and challenging

[Flamez2]

make an affix with no trash and line up all the bosses at the beginning please

[exochaft]

If I had to pick my least favorite dungeons, I think I'd pick KR from a M+ perspective.

I think the serpent boss DoT effect is still the closest thing to Hyrja, as even at relatively low keys the DoT is doing 50% of your HP or more per tick on Tyrannical (the council isn't a picnic depending upon the order, either). The runner-up would probably be the Zul mini-boss on Fortified. More importantly, I hate how rigid the dungeon actually is from the perspective of choosing how to tackle the dungeon. For example, unless you have a rogue or do death runs, you pretty much have to kill all the trash minus the two constructs at the beginning that everyone can skip. There's almost no room for planning when it comes to optimizing your route, and the second wave of Reaping is always going to occur during the tomb room where you will be fighting trash at the same time. On that same token, the timer feels like the strictest timer of all the dungeons with little room for error, especially since you go to the beginning upon wiping.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, I'd say Freehold exemplifies what a M+ dungeon should be. I've been in so many groups who have done the dungeon tons of different ways, and that's a good thing: being able to strategize for your group and how to deal with stuff is great. There's quite a bit of trash, but again you don't even need a rogue to pick and choose what you want to do and in what order (applies to the last three bosses, as well). The timer for the dungeon feels quite comfortable, so you can wipe and not automatically fail to make the timer. Regardless of affixes, the dungeon always feels like it's manageable despite having some dangerous spots based upon the affixes. Basically, the dungeons allows flexibility and creative solutions and unique routes that can be tailored to any comp while allowing a little room for error regardless of affixes.

When it comes to the affixes in general, I still hate Grievous in all context (perhaps Explosive, as well). I don't particularly like how Fortified/Tyrannical got moved to +2 over +10, but I do know why they did it: to allow for seasonal affixes and have said affix be seen by most players. If they kept the Legion model, adding a season affix on top of Fort/Tyr at +10 would make the difficult jump a little nuts, and shoving the season affix to +2 or say +15 would either kill low keys or have the affix be seen by very few people.

If I could make a change, I would adjust the power of Fort/Tyr by either reducing the effects even more baseline or have the affix scale to be more difficult as you get to higher keys. For example, instead of having static percent values associated with Fort/Tyr, have the affix scale up as the key gets higher. For a numbers example, you could have Tyrannical add 1% HP and damage to the bosses on top of the regular key level scaling. This would hopefully make the entry level keys a bit gentler for their intended audience while still allowing the modifiers to introduce intended difficulty at higher key levels.

[Jastall]

Imo Fort could just be removed and Tyranical could be a second tier affix instead, slightly weaker than it currently is. Same way some affixes don't really affect bosses, you'd have an affix that doesn't really affect trash.

That could work as well. The seasonal affixes should be the level 2 ones, so that everyone sees them. Reaping is a fun, thematic affix, I see no reason to leave it at level 10. At worst just nerf it for level 2-9 keys so the mobs have 25% HP instead of 50% and don't hit quite as hard.

[ID811717]

While the seasonal affixes are fun, they are also hard. I think letting people run +2/+3 without affixes lets people at least attempt Mythic+. A lot of people would never try if they knew they'd immediately have to deal with something like infested. Ofc that might have been more of a problem with infested (reaping is far more forgiving if there is a clear plan).

On bigger reaping waves tank gets 30+ stacks in between a dispel can come off cooldown, and you need to use some tank cooldown or healer external to be safe. It can wipe you if the healer is slow with dispels. This requires too much from players doing +2s.

[Jastall]

While the seasonal affixes are fun, they are also hard. I think letting people run +2/+3 without affixes lets people at least attempt Mythic+. A lot of people would never try if they knew they'd immediately have to deal with something like infested. Ofc that might have been more of a problem with infested (reaping is far more forgiving if there is a clear plan).

Which is why I favor a nerfed affix, with less mob health and no tank debuff for instance. Infested mobs wouldn't have healed their counterparts, so on and so forth.

[ThrashMetalFtw]

Not sure what you're on about. BFA has the by far best dungeons since Cata HCs.

They especially shit all over the Legion ones that you compared them to (personally found Legion 5mans to be extremely bland, except for Cathedral and Seat that they added later).

[Bokegu]

If that was true island expeditions would be a popular feature.

IE aren't popular because they don't hand out gear.
If IE handed out gear at the same ratio of 5mans, they'd be incredibly popular.

[Irian]

I despise introducing the term "season" to PvE. Not even pretending to be an immersive role playing game anymore.

It's all so incredibly gamey.

This is something that bugs the shit out of me too. It feels dumb that it annoys me so much but it does.

WoW isn't an esport, or at least not one anyone is ever going to take seriously. The mythic race, the M+ key levels, arenas, rated BGs, this is all well and good for the people that enjoy it but it feels like the game is trying so hard to be something it's not. This isn't a moba, it's not an FPS, it's an MMORPG and I wish they'd stop ignoring that. Calling PvE tiers "seasons" feels like the final step in WoW's development team forgetting that they're creating an RPG and not a competitive action game.

[Bokegu]

I think the biggest disconnect is that the devs don't think this should be a thing, and they think that we should understand that (I mean I get it, which is why I don't touch M+, but that's just me). If I were to guess, I'd think that the devs *would* say "normal and heroic are there waiting for you," but PR clearly won't let them say that haha.

It doesn't change their clear and obvious intent though.

0's are for the people who want content they can do drunk. Or +2/3/whatever low key.
Or you could get good and do 10's half drunk.

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This is something that bugs the shit out of me too. It feels dumb that it annoys me so much but it does.

WoW isn't an esport, or at least not one anyone is ever going to take seriously. The mythic race, the M+ key levels, arenas, rated BGs, this is all well and good for the people that enjoy it but it feels like the game is trying so hard to be something it's not. This isn't a moba, it's not an FPS, it's an MMORPG and I wish they'd stop ignoring that. Calling PvE tiers "seasons" feels like the final step in WoW's development team forgetting that they're creating an RPG and not a competitive action game.

WoW pve *has* been seasonal since Ulduar hit, though.
It's just the first time that nomenclature has been used.

[Jastall]

Ah and then you could have a "Greater Infested/Greater Reaping" at +10?

Sure, something along those lines, so there's still a difficulty spike for doing a +10, just not like now where keys 2-9 don't see the affix at all.

[Yunaqt]

I personally much prefer M+ this expansion, have been much more inclined to throw myself into much more keys than I did in Legion.

This seasons pretty easy for completion, since if you just want to faceroll a key for completion for a chest and residuum you can get naked and spam die at the start, takes roughly 2mins to deplete doing this as you can do the dungeon with the 20% damage and Healing and the ability to constantly reset the Lust cd.

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0's are for the people who want content they can do drunk. Or +2/3/whatever low key.
Or you could get good and do 10's half drunk.

10's are pretty damn brainless, can do them fully drunk, a 15 on the other hand I did that drunk which was *interesting*. The timers are much more lenient this season without dealing with G'huunies.

[Nitros14]

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WoW pve *has* been seasonal since Ulduar hit, though.
It's just the first time that nomenclature has been used.

Words mean something though. It feels more immersive to not refer to it that way. Just like X Gladiator's X is a shitty, unimmersive term for an item and has made me hate pvp gear for the last decade.

I want to play an MMORPG.

[MrExcelion]

10's are pretty damn brainless

You'd be surprised what happens in some of my weekly group finder pugs (timer failing, people rage quitting after a couple of wipes etc). I wish they were chill and brainless, but it's probably because my score isn't high enough to get into potentially stronger groups

[Dotality]

make an affix with no trash and line up all the bosses at the beginning please

literally noone is saying that there shouldn't be trash. I know ur being sarcastic but the issue, for me, that there is too much of it and it's too annoying that it overshadows bosses.

[Battlebeard]

They are too long and too much trash, just like you said. I didn't like M+ in legion but it's even worse now.

WoD had amazing dungeons, so did Cataclysm. The perfect example dungeon is in my opinion Grimrail Depot. Not too long, not too much annoying trash and THREE bosses, which is the best number.

ALSO!:

Right now it's quite boring to play them for another reason, it's just pack-pack-pack-boss-pack-pack etc. You basically take one pack at a time and clear them. What happened to big pulls and massive risks combined with good cooldown usage. What happened to pulling ALL trash to the boss and killing them at the same time, as we saw in Challenge Modes a lot. All the cool stuff like that is gone cause trash is simply too strong and has too much cc as well. This is so stale and boring. Basically only gear will determine the speed. And even with sick gear, it's still never fast and cool like it was for CM.

When CM became M+, it took away the speedrunning aspect of the game. I mean, the fact that you get loot even if you fail the timer is a joke.

I mean right now, I watch Musclebrah, the best rogue in M+ and possibly the best M+ group there is right now. They do Manor and has killed 2 bosses and 58% trash and they have been there TWENTYTWO MINUTES. And these are the BEST guys. It's such a snoozefest (not the players fault) I don't know why I watch this. They have 39 minutes to complete it. What happened to 5minute dungeons for Challenge Mode, now that was FUN to watch!

[Pooti]

IE aren't popular because they don't hand out gear.
If IE handed out gear at the same ratio of 5mans, they'd be incredibly popular.

This. I think more people care about the gear reward than you know, "playing". My characters are at a point where the max m+ chest at the end is not likely to have a reward, but I still enjoy running them, because I enjoy playing my character and playing with friends.