I don't like BFA dungeons and here's why

[Bokegu]

Considering they fixed Invis and Shroud about 3months ago, I'm not sure if you even play M+

Most of the crybabies don't play

[ID811717]

Considering they fixed Invis and Shroud about 3months ago, I'm not sure if you even play M+

Only Matrons see stealth. It is very common to kill Matrons and then stealth the big pack there.

[Essem]

My biggest issue is that BFA dungeons dont have any breathing room. Super tight hallways packed with trash. Make one wrong step in either direction and you got yourself another pack pulled. Give me Eye of Aszhara, Halls of Valor, Nelths Lair etc any day. Legion dungeons was way more enjoyable just because of this.

[ID811717]

Right now it's quite boring to play them for another reason, it's just pack-pack-pack-boss-pack-pack etc. You basically take one pack at a time and clear them. What happened to big pulls and massive risks combined with good cooldown usage. What happened to pulling ALL trash to the boss and killing them at the same time, as we saw in Challenge Modes a lot. All the cool stuff like that is gone cause trash is simply too strong and has too much cc as well. This is so stale and boring. Basically only gear will determine the speed. And even with sick gear, it's still never fast and cool like it was for CM.

When CM became M+, it took away the speedrunning aspect of the game. I mean, the fact that you get loot even if you fail the timer is a joke.

I mean right now, I watch Musclebrah, the best rogue in M+ and possibly the best M+ group there is right now. They do Manor and has killed 2 bosses and 58% trash and they have been there TWENTYTWO MINUTES. And these are the BEST guys. It's such a snoozefest (not the players fault) I don't know why I watch this. They have 39 minutes to complete it. What happened to 5minute dungeons for Challenge Mode, now that was FUN to watch!

If you can pull all trash to the boss and killing them together that's a good indication you are doing trivial content. But if you insist on doing that, you can go and do it in heroic dungeons. Musclebrah can also do it in keys between +10 and +15 (depending on dungeons and affixes) but what is the point in doing that?.. You will see that happen a lot in MDI soon.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

I didnt bother reading any of this.. but let me guess how this thread goes..

you wrong

you right

you dumb

you dumber

you wrong

you right

they right

they wrong

blah blah

[Osmeric]

I feel like they tried very, very, very hard to turn M+ into an esport

This. Esports are a cancer. I'm glad the Morhaimes are gone.

[Battlebeard]

If you can pull all trash to the boss and killing them together that's a good indication you are doing trivial content. But if you insist on doing that, you can go and do it in heroic dungeons. Musclebrah can also do it in keys between +10 and +15 (depending on dungeons and affixes) but what is the point in doing that?.. You will see that happen a lot in MDI soon.

That's the point, it should be doable at the highest level, like 20+ keys as well, cause it was doable for the Challenge Modes, which was the highest level back then. Challenge Modes weren't trivial and it doesn't have to be trivial now either. Though I guess it comes down more to class design than dungeon design, or at least 50/50.

It's hard to balance, but all I know is that Challenge Modes were really fun to play and maybe even more fun to watch. And M+ does not live up to the enjoyment of CMs.

- - - Updated - - -

This. Esports are a cancer. I'm glad the Morhaimes are gone.

Care to explain why? I think E-sport is absolutely fantastic, I never miss any tournament for WoW, Counter-Strike, Overwatch and a few other games. :O

[Emerald Archer]

but you can get Freehold done even faster than Maw was ever done in my opinion.

That's just untrue, it's not an opinion thing, no one is close to doing freehold faster than you could do MoS.

MoS was literally pull all trash to the boss, aoe it down with boss.
Pull all trash to 2nd boss, kill it, kill boss.
Pull all trash to 3rd boss, kill it, kill boss.

There is no opinion to give here, it's purely fact that MoS was significantly faster.
Looking it up (cbf posting a screenshot, but it was on the 4,279th page of timed runs for freehold) The fastest 10 was done in 17minutes and 43 seconds.
MDI MoS time trials were 7minutes 30seconds, ofc no one has pushed freehold that hard, so even if we were to double that time, it's still faster than Freehold (Though the time trials were on a higher key level than the loot cap, and 12minute runs were pretty common not even as a particularly fast run)

Hell, the timer just to 3 chest a MoS was 14minutes. Unless you're saying no one ever 3 chested a MoS? Or that +10 Freeholds are commonly done in under 14minutes? (Can't find the record for last tier, maybe that's your proof)

[ID811717]

That's the point, it should be doable at the highest level, like 20+ keys as well, cause it was doable for the Challenge Modes, which was the highest level back then. Challenge Modes weren't trivial and it doesn't have to be trivial now either.

What about +40? Should it be possible in +40 as well?
The +20 right now is insanely harder than Challenge Modes back in the day. There is a reason no player in the world completed all dungeons even on +19 in time yet.

If speed runs float your boat, go for the appropriate key levels. Start low and push up. Speed runs require different class comps and different player skills compared to pushing high keys. You can be the first-comer in this field, develop the tactics, popularize the meta, and be the new big streamer.

[threads]

every time they try to make something some esport it gets ruined. just like pvp.

[clevin]

That's the point, it should be doable at the highest level, like 20+ keys as well, cause it was doable for the Challenge Modes, which was the highest level back then. Challenge Modes weren't trivial and it doesn't have to be trivial now either. Though I guess it comes down more to class design than dungeon design, or at least 50/50.

BY DEFINITION if you can pull everything and AOE it down, you're doing content that's trivial. That's what the meaning of the word IS. You cannot meaningfully argue that you should be able to do that but ".. it doesn't have to be trivial now..".

the entire point of M+ really is to keep scaling so the content is never trivial... which means you should never outgear it so much that you can pull the entire thing and live.

[gutnbrg]

its weird that so many people complain about m+...the only people any M+ is difficult on are healers and tanks.

[MrExcelion]

Challenge Modes weren't trivial and it doesn't have to be trivial now either. Though I guess it comes down more to class design than dungeon design, or at least 50/50.

Just to make a side comment here, it was mostly them not scaling sockets/trinkets well and lots of skips being found out, but by the later half of MoP and WoD you had boosters selling double AFK carries. I don't have specifics but I'm guessing like 1/3 of MoP CMs were just bought back then, maybe even more, as boosters here claimed to have run hundreds or even a thousand people (and made 3k/month supporting their families in third world countries, or so people posted here anyway)

They were still fun to do legitimately though. It's just they had such a wide timeframe that they became easy after a few months. Those xmog sets were dope and I look back on the experience fondly. And yeah, the trash wasn't all that annoying like BFA dungeons were (getting back on topic here)

[Xloudman]

Atal, and Underrot are both fine dungeons. Temple is kind of meh. King's Rest is fine depending on the 3rd boss order. Waycrest and Tol Dagor are both terrible dungeons, tiny hallways are a terrible design. Shrine and Motherlode just straight up need trash or trash mechanics removed, Shrine could also do with a timer increase. Freehold and Tol Dagor are a bit too lenient. The part i hate the most is how Shrine and Tol'dagor are essentially rogue reliant, invis pots should just put up a shroud like rogue does and not require everyone to have one. None of the other "class utility" consumables require all 5 members to have them, not drums, not keys, not scrolls, it's dumb.

[Jester Joe]

That's just untrue, it's not an opinion thing, no one is close to doing freehold faster than you could do MoS.

MoS was literally pull all trash to the boss, aoe it down with boss.
Pull all trash to 2nd boss, kill it, kill boss.
Pull all trash to 3rd boss, kill it, kill boss.

There is no opinion to give here, it's purely fact that MoS was significantly faster.
Looking it up (cbf posting a screenshot, but it was on the 4,279th page of timed runs for freehold) The fastest 10 was done in 17minutes and 43 seconds.
MDI MoS time trials were 7minutes 30seconds, ofc no one has pushed freehold that hard, so even if we were to double that time, it's still faster than Freehold (Though the time trials were on a higher key level than the loot cap, and 12minute runs were pretty common not even as a particularly fast run)

Hell, the timer just to 3 chest a MoS was 14minutes. Unless you're saying no one ever 3 chested a MoS? Or that +10 Freeholds are commonly done in under 14minutes? (Can't find the record for last tier, maybe that's your proof)

You honestly have no idea what I'm talking about.

MoS was chain ran to finish weekly Mythic quest.
It was ran on M+0.

It IS FASTER to do a Freehold+0 to get credit than it ever was to do MoS.

[Emerald Archer]

You honestly have no idea what I'm talking about.

MoS was chain ran to finish weekly Mythic quest.
It was ran on M+0.

It IS FASTER to do a Freehold+0 to get credit than it ever was to do MoS.

I assumed you weren't talking about a completely irrelevant dungeon difficulty when the original post was talking about mythic+

Yes, if you can skip to the last boss, shockingly freehold is faster. That's not doing the dungeon, that's skipping the dungeon for a quest that pops up once every month and a half.

[Jester Joe]

I assumed you weren't talking about a completely irrelevant dungeon difficulty when the original post was talking about mythic+

Yes, if you can skip to the last boss, shockingly freehold is faster. That's not doing the dungeon, that's skipping the dungeon for a quest that pops up once every month and a half.

"I thought I would share my opinion on BFA dungeons, and general design of bfa mythic +."

And. Not "Just M+".

And if you read my post, you would have seen I said exactly that the only reason to really be frustrated over there being no short dungeon is because of Mythic week, and that's the only time MoS was really sought out anyway. It wasn't really a "go to" key otherwise.

[Emerald Archer]

"I thought I would share my opinion on BFA dungeons, and general design of bfa mythic +."

And. Not "Just M+".

And if you read my post, you would have seen I said exactly that the only reason to really be frustrated over there being no short dungeon is because of Mythic week, and that's the only time MoS was really sought out anyway. It wasn't really a "go to" key otherwise.

MoS was farmed hundreds of times by players in order to farm AP, what do you mean it wasn't the go to key?

[Jester Joe]

MoS was farmed hundreds of times by players in order to farm AP, what do you mean it wasn't the go to key?

And then they nerfed that.

I really don't get what you're trying to argue here. There was a short period of time where it was farmed and then Blizzard considered that an unhealthy playstyle.

Past that, it's not like there was any point that people were actively searching JUST for MoS because it was quick. People would look for keys they need/want gear from, and just avoid things like Cath/Seat.

[Aphrel]

1. I like longer dungeons.
2. The design and envoriments of the dugneons is awesome. They could get rid of all the idiotic invisible walls thou.
3. Yeah agree 100%. It should be tyrannical always, because fortified is just a trashfest. Might aswell go play fucking island expedition.
4. They overdid trash mechanics in some places. But mostly its in a good spot imo.