Prot warrior pushing high M+

[Jazzhands]

Check again:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...76&class=Tanks
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...63&class=Tanks
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...68&class=Tanks
Deliberately picking bosses where you move adds away so you can't really pad.

On fights where you can aoe pad it's even worse:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...72&class=Tanks
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...71&class=Tanks

Warriors DO more single target damage than any other tank, on top of it their aoe is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than any other tank.

And about m+, trash is the bigger portion of the clear than the bosses, a tank that does outrageously high dps on trash is pushing other tanks out of meta, in a similar way that "immortal" tanks were pushing other tanks out of meta because it allowed healers to dps more, that's the reason dks got nerfed.

Sorry, I should have specified, warriors shouldn't be beating DPS classes, that's my bad. Looking at Warcraft logs for BoD (There sadly aren't really logs for M+), I 100% agree that the gap between warriors and other tanks is too wide, but there's still a large gap between warriors and DPS classes. And actually, one of the only top 10 M+ groups that logs uses a Prot warrior, check this out.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done

I could link more, but I think you see what I'm getting at. They are a meta level team, and the warrior is far behind the DPS in every run in terms of overall damage. Sure, at a lower end with a larger gear/skill imbalance you'll see tanks doing a ton more than DPS sometimes, but you can't blame the class when people are playing and gearing poorly. Some classes also aren't built for sustained AoE, so they will obviously struggle in this situation, and tanks need sustained AoE to hold aggro. Classes need variance for flavor or the game is bland, like BFA is right now because of super simple classes. When the stuff is equal and everyone knows what they're doing and it's AoE classes competing, warriors won't be beating DPS classes unless it's a pull where they use CDs and the DPS don't. Comparing a class built for ST damage vs another classes AoE damage is just silly. All DPS will do more ST than tanks pretty much always, and tanks can sometimes do more AoE than some DPS classes, that's really not that bad.

And the thing is, there's always going to be a best and worst in terms of DPS among tanks, warriors are on top right now but they haven't always been, that's how balance goes. If they get nerfed, Brewmasters are top, then it's NERF BREWMASTERS RAHHHHH!

I agree with your comments about the effects on the meta, but that wasn't part of the post I responded too. And while you aren't wrong, like I said earlier there's always going to be a best and worst, and if you're dedicated to playing the meta that's something you need to accept, because there's really no way to make every class equal in every situation and way without making them bland as hell, even blander than they are now. Since you're playing meta, you always need to play the "best", because at the highest end even a small difference can make or break since all you need is to be .1 second faster than the other groups. This is a problem, but how exactly could you fix it and keep classes interesting? Even doing something with set stats, you'd more or less need the exact same toolkit which makes the game super bland, it's a huge problem already with BFA, we don't need it to be worse.

At a lower end, for people who are just clearing their weekly 10 or even less, any tank is fine right now, and always will be. Same with heroic raiding. Mythic raiding has the same issue as M+, there will always be a best and worst for bosses, but once again how would you fix it? Numbers aren't so easy when there are as many variables as this game has.

[Marrilaife]

@Jazzhands

You can keep warriors "top dps" among the tanks but not by a freaking mile. Or you could make it some form of trade-off where if you spec more offensively, you lose some of the defensive benefits (atm there's 1 viable talent build for warrior).

If anyone saw my posts from few months ago I was fully agreeing with the statement to buff prot warriors because their usability in Uldir was on the low side. But now it got turned on its head. I just wish for some semblance of balance instead of this overpowered - underpowered roller coaster.

Somehow in this roulette "who's turn now to be top, and who's turn now to be crap" I had my turn to be crap, but haven't seen a winning ticket in years.

[Deciticus]

@Jazzhands

You can keep warriors "top dps" among the tanks but not by a freaking mile. Or you could make it some form of trade-off where if you spec more offensively, you lose some of the defensive benefits (atm there's 1 viable talent build for warrior).

If anyone saw my posts from few months ago I was fully agreeing with the statement to buff prot warriors because their usability in Uldir was on the low side. But now it got turned on its head. I just wish for some semblance of balance instead of this overpowered - underpowered roller coaster.

Somehow in this roulette "who's turn now to be top, and who's turn now to be crap" I had my turn to be crap, but haven't seen a winning ticket in years.

Problem. Four of the six tanks currently all occupy a niche. That's a good thing, isn't it? They all have their own specifically strong area/purpose. Why is that a bad thing.

[swatsonqt]

@Jazzhands

You can keep warriors "top dps" among the tanks but not by a freaking mile. Or you could make it some form of trade-off where if you spec more offensively, you lose some of the defensive benefits (atm there's 1 viable talent build for warrior).

If anyone saw my posts from few months ago I was fully agreeing with the statement to buff prot warriors because their usability in Uldir was on the low side. But now it got turned on its head. I just wish for some semblance of balance instead of this overpowered - underpowered roller coaster.

Somehow in this roulette "who's turn now to be top, and who's turn now to be crap" I had my turn to be crap, but haven't seen a winning ticket in years.

I don't even understand how prot got so strong... i mean the buffs were good but it was obvious that the aoe dmg would be a bit strong wasn't it?
I don't understand why there is not a simple % tuning on thunderclap and there you go. Can't be that hard i guess? Maybe give TC a kind of DR that makes it scale not so fucking hard with mob count and all of a sudden braught in line for m+ or am i mistaken?

[Meiffert]

I don't understand why there is not a simple % tuning on thunderclap and there you go.

Well if anything, the tuning should probably be on Unstoppable Force rather than Thunder Clap itself.
But more importantly, it's questionable if a nerf is needed.

You can keep warriors "top dps" among the tanks but not by a freaking mile.

Nobody is arguing that warrior dps isn't high. But there is more to this game than dps.
As others have mentioned, different classes have different strengths and weaknesses.

Warriors don't have full up-time on active mitigation like monks, druids, and DKs. We have no repositioning abilities like grips or knockbacks (Mekkatorque, M+). We have no self-healing, no immunities that would allow us to cheese mechanics (BoPing coin showers on Oppulence, removing ice block on Jaina, solotanking Bwonsamdi, resetting necrotic stacks in M+ etc.)

If dps was all that mattered, you'd be right and warriors would need a nerf. But as it turns out the other factors compensate for it and arguably even outweigh it since warriors are not the most played tank in mythic. They are middle of the pack at later bosses as well (close to paladins, behind DKs and monks) and those guilds usually have good options to use any tank class if they considered it stronger:


I also want to mention (as a bit of a side note) that 1-2k difference in dps (from the warcraftlogs statistics you linked earlier) is not really "a freaking mile".
The difference in dps between discipline priest and other healers is between 5k and 10k on single target fights. That one I consider problematic. 1k not so much.
There is much bigger difference than 1 or 2k even between dps specs and nobody would call BM hunters useless, they were still used on all fights by the top guilds.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...s/21#boss=2263

[potis]

Dont forget, 6 months into the expansion what you see is many FOTM rerollers also.

There is no reason for a reroller to go back to their Prot Warrior when DK is still good or even better because of Gorefiend's and 90% DnD slow or Brewmaster and their facerolling passive mitigation, especially when you have to grind WQs all day long for a couple of weeks for the neck level.

Fotm rerollers will only reroll if its completely broken like DK was at the start.

Also, many things remain as is for the " BUT MAH FANTASY".

Yeah, i love my newly found AoE fun DPS in BFA, every 40 seconds-1m with Avatar and Anger Management , especially with Bastion of Might now giving extra damage.

Then i remember that Thunder Clap still has a 3 second cd averagely despite of that, while Death And Decay on the ground 2 blood boil stacks make for one faceroll aoe threat grabbing from continuous adds as it always did.

Some things remain as is because they cant be changed, what can you do, its not like pre-8.1 where the class just plain clunky..

Prot Warrior is way more viable and way more fun to play than most of the other tanks, yeah when its Sanguine week i yell i would really love a fucking Death's Grip right now because that mob refuses to move but what can you do!

[Marrilaife]

I also want to mention (as a bit of a side note) that 1-2k difference in dps (from the warcraftlogs statistics you linked earlier) is not really "a freaking mile".

That's on single target. Problem is aoe in m+ where warriors scale infinitely. Some other frequently used tanks have target caps on their abilities like heart strike and avenger's shield, while warriors have none on either revenge or thunder clap, they also have lower cooldown on these abilities than for example blood boil with standard used build. It wouldn't be that big of a deal if reaping didn't enter the scene. In season 1 with infested you couldn't mass aoe that many mobs, so crazy aoe didn't have much place to shine.

The fact they can cheese / squeeze extra dps with spellreflect is part of spec fantasy, it's worth keeping, but the amount of aoe damage you can deal differs so much between top tank (warrior) and bottom (druid) that it affects m+ much more than it affects raiding. Next week is skittish so again it's gonna be a non-affix for warrior and a problem for less optimized group for example druid tank with no rogue / hunter.

Yes, everyone "can do" a weekly 10 or 15, but it shouldn't be that much easier or harder depending on class. Pushing max level keys people are always gonna argue meta is meta and you can't balance it, but hey, there is a reason why warriors and slowly pushing dks out.

I'm also gonna laugh if nothing happens for a few months then insta after MDI Blizzard is gonna wake up and start nerfing the most used m+ specs.

They are middle of the pack at later bosses as well (close to paladins, behind DKs and monks) and those guilds usually have good options to use any tank class if they considered it stronger

I expect the dominance of monk / dk parses is that everyone had those geared out of Uldir. And theoretically top guilds should be using whatever is best, but just look at Sco who was basically cba to farm ap and gear anything except monk to the point he had to be benched on tinker boss that needed blood dks for their strat.

So what guilds already had prepped has influence, warriors would have to be not just "a bit better" but "broken op" for raiding for everyone bother to switch, or mandatory for a strat like druids were on Kil'jaeden. The addition of another "grip boss" in form of tinker ensured guilds keep using blood dks despite heavy handed nerfs to them. Especially since dps dks are bottom tier across melee specs in the current raid, so it's easier to put up with sub par tank than sub par dps.

On the other hand I wonder how blood dk representation is gonna hold after more guilds get to and kill Jaina, according to the commentary from Scripe from method there's 0 reason to bring a blood dk to Jaina over a warrior / paladin / monk.

Another thing is BOD raid is extremely light on aoe encounters, so aoe classes are not "necessary". However on Opulence I've seen prot warrior outdps half the raid.

And yes, I understand there are more pressing matters in class balancing, like for example vengeance dhs being garbage for raids since being put in the game, and they're even worse in bfa with no leggos / artifact to fill the gaps. They're also worse in m+ than they were in legion in comparison. There's basically no reason to play a dh tank, dead spec.

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nobody would call BM hunters useless, they were still used on all fights by the top guilds.

Tbh there's a significant drift towards hunters switching to MM this tier, unless 1) you need the mobility like the escort job on Jaina (which apparently is not needed with clever use of gateways and lifegrips, since warlocks / priests are stacked for the fight anyway) 2) you play in a guild where you are not pressured to play the best spec, for example you can see on blockade there's double the mm parses than bm, but on grong it's more equal as more casual guilds killed grong than blockade.

However hunters of any spec aren't a particular hotcake this tier, it's all spriest / lock / boomkin time to shine.

[swatsonqt]

Well if anything, the tuning should probably be on Unstoppable Force rather than Thunder Clap itself.
But more importantly, it's questionable if a nerf is needed.



Nobody is arguing that warrior dps isn't high. But there is more to this game than dps.
As others have mentioned, different classes have different strengths and weaknesses.

Warriors don't have full up-time on active mitigation like monks, druids, and DKs. We have no repositioning abilities like grips or knockbacks (Mekkatorque, M+). We have no self-healing, no immunities that would allow us to cheese mechanics (BoPing coin showers on Oppulence, removing ice block on Jaina, solotanking Bwonsamdi, resetting necrotic stacks in M+ etc.)

If dps was all that mattered, you'd be right and warriors would need a nerf. But as it turns out the other factors compensate for it and arguably even outweigh it since warriors are not the most played tank in mythic. They are middle of the pack at later bosses as well (close to paladins, behind DKs and monks) and those guilds usually have good options to use any tank class if they considered it stronger:


I also want to mention (as a bit of a side note) that 1-2k difference in dps (from the warcraftlogs statistics you linked earlier) is not really "a freaking mile".
The difference in dps between discipline priest and other healers is between 5k and 10k on single target fights. That one I consider problematic. 1k not so much.
There is much bigger difference than 1 or 2k even between dps specs and nobody would call BM hunters useless, they were still used on all fights by the top guilds.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...s/21#boss=2263

You do realise that you complete missed the topic of the thread which is prot warriors in m+ right? Some of what you said might be true but then again: this is not about raiding? it's about m+. and there simply is no discussion that warrior's dps is too strong at the moment in that spot. Which leads to them being the top tank no matter what because the dps is so ridicilous high.

[Deciticus]

That's on single target. Problem is aoe in m+ where warriors scale infinitely. Some other frequently used tanks have target caps on their abilities like heart strike and avenger's shield, while warriors have none on either revenge or thunder clap, they also have lower cooldown on these abilities than for example blood boil with standard used build. It wouldn't be that big of a deal if reaping didn't enter the scene. In season 1 with infested you couldn't mass aoe that many mobs, so crazy aoe didn't have much place to shine.

The fact they can cheese / squeeze extra dps with spellreflect is part of spec fantasy, it's worth keeping, but the amount of aoe damage you can deal differs so much between top tank (warrior) and bottom (druid) that it affects m+ much more than it affects raiding. Next week is skittish so again it's gonna be a non-affix for warrior and a problem for less optimized group for example druid tank with no rogue / hunter.

Yes, everyone "can do" a weekly 10 or 15, but it shouldn't be that much easier or harder depending on class. Pushing max level keys people are always gonna argue meta is meta and you can't balance it, but hey, there is a reason why warriors and slowly pushing dks out.

I'm also gonna laugh if nothing happens for a few months then insta after MDI Blizzard is gonna wake up and start nerfing the most used m+ specs.

I expect the dominance of monk / dk parses is that everyone had those geared out of Uldir. And theoretically top guilds should be using whatever is best, but just look at Sco who was basically cba to farm ap and gear anything except monk to the point he had to be benched on tinker boss that needed blood dks for their strat.

So what guilds already had prepped has influence, warriors would have to be not just "a bit better" but "broken op" for raiding for everyone bother to switch, or mandatory for a strat like druids were on Kil'jaeden. The addition of another "grip boss" in form of tinker ensured guilds keep using blood dks despite heavy handed nerfs to them. Especially since dps dks are bottom tier across melee specs in the current raid, so it's easier to put up with sub par tank than sub par dps.

On the other hand I wonder how blood dk representation is gonna hold after more guilds get to and kill Jaina, according to the commentary from Scripe from method there's 0 reason to bring a blood dk to Jaina over a warrior / paladin / monk.

Another thing is BOD raid is extremely light on aoe encounters, so aoe classes are not "necessary". However on Opulence I've seen prot warrior outdps half the raid.

And yes, I understand there are more pressing matters in class balancing, like for example vengeance dhs being garbage for raids since being put in the game, and they're even worse in bfa with no leggos / artifact to fill the gaps. They're also worse in m+ than they were in legion in comparison. There's basically no reason to play a dh tank, dead spec.

- - - Updated - - -

Tbh there's a significant drift towards hunters switching to MM this tier, unless 1) you need the mobility like the escort job on Jaina (which apparently is not needed with clever use of gateways and lifegrips, since warlocks / priests are stacked for the fight anyway) 2) you play in a guild where you are not pressured to play the best spec, for example you can see on blockade there's double the mm parses than bm, but on grong it's more equal as more casual guilds killed grong than blockade.

However hunters of any spec aren't a particular hotcake this tier, it's all spriest / lock / boomkin time to shine.

The logic of "no reason to play a veng dh" that you use is pretty much "it's not meta, so it's a dead spec"

You're an idiot. A spec not being the best is no reason to not play it. You talk a lot about top guilds, but no one in this thread is in a top guild. Kind of silly to bring up. "look what they do" They're better than you. They're better than me. There's no correlation of logic. We don't even play the same game as they do.

Every tank with the exception of bear is perfectly capable of doing some pretty sick aoe. Prot's the best by a good margin. Doesn't mean other tanks are handicapped.

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You do realise that you complete missed the topic of the thread which is prot warriors in m+ right? Some of what you said might be true but then again: this is not about raiding? it's about m+. and there simply is no discussion that warrior's dps is too strong at the moment in that spot. Which leads to them being the top tank no matter what because the dps is so ridicilous high.

He didn't miss the point of the thread, He responded to someone ELSE that brought it up.

And there's a fucking lot more that goes into m+ than just damage. Especially as a tank. Prot is fuckin blasting right now, but the statement "top tank no matter what" is not only uninformed, it's fucking stupid.

[Rikkuu]

I am a part of semi-HC group of long time friends. We push 18+ keys regularly, but we still keep to the "bring the player not the class" sentiment. Some of us like playing FOTM Meta classes, but we dont force anyone to play it, so we have Rogue/DH/Moonkin/Mistweaver/Prot Paladin....

As I said, our ceiling is +18 atm. If i compare our logs with some of the +20 / +21 runs for example... The only... and I mean "THE F*ING ONLY" reason why we are not able to push any further is us not having a prot warrior. It is like having extra DPS, and not only some mediocre DPS, extra full top notch DPS...

I understand that some tanks are good for some things, others are good for other things, but prot warrior being so stupidly OP skews the M+ ranking much much more than DK having best utility in Season 1

[Allseye]

I am a part of semi-HC group of long time friends. We push 18+ keys regularly, but we still keep to the "bring the player not the class" sentiment. Some of us like playing FOTM Meta classes, but we dont force anyone to play it, so we have Rogue/DH/Moonkin/Mistweaver/Prot Paladin....

As I said, our ceiling is +18 atm. If i compare our logs with some of the +20 / +21 runs for example... The only... and I mean "THE F*ING ONLY" reason why we are not able to push any further is us not having a prot warrior. It is like having extra DPS, and not only some mediocre DPS, extra full top notch DPS...

I understand that some tanks are good for some things, others are good for other things, but prot warrior being so stupidly OP skews the M+ ranking much much more than DK having best utility in Season 1

I think everyone agrees prot warriors AE-DPS is kind of OP. It has been OP since this addon and has been untouched by blizzard. I'm still wondering why but it felt and still feels funny to burst in groups. But I do absolutely understand why other tankclasses are complaining about. Personally, i would highly appreciate a nerv of unstoppable force but increasing our single-target DPS with shield slam.

While AE-DPS is a prot warrior thing right now, it wouldn't be after a nerv. So there has to be more utility for m+. Something community has mentioned more than once and has been ignored by blizzard...

[Tojara]

Honestly they should just nerf unstoppable force by a small margin and probably buff some of the other tanks DPS. I'm far more in favor of this approach because DPS classes scale faster than tank classes, which eventually will become even more of a problem as the expansion goes on. This isn't that big of a deal overall if it wasn't for the fact that rogues are so mandatory as is, and making ToTT even more attractive would be silly.

While it would appear in logs, I hope people realize that you would have to dig deeper into details to find out how amazing spell reflect is in some dungeons, especially against bosses. You can quite literally chunk ~15% of the first boss in ToS if you time your spell reflect properly on cyclone strike (it still works, you just have to make sure the other boss isn't casting on you, or you'll explode). My spell reflect alone in a 15 ToS accounted for nearly 25% of the overall damage done to the first boss in ToS. That's a pretty extreme example, but there are plenty of other bosses where you can routinely take 3-5% of a bosses health off with a single spell reflect.

Am I saying nerf spell reflect? No. But when you add how much damage it accounts for over an entire run (it's higher in some keys as opposed to others), in addition to protection warriors overall damage, and you can see why people are turning to them.

Tank DPS does matter in keys. Warriors are pretty sturdy in keys (maybe as much, or slightly worse than monks) and do absurd damage by comparison. Paladins actually do pretty good damage, but aren't nearly as sturdy, despite the utility they bring.

[stross01]

I think everyone agrees prot warriors AE-DPS is kind of OP. It has been OP since this addon and has been untouched by blizzard. I'm still wondering why but it felt and still feels funny to burst in groups. But I do absolutely understand why other tankclasses are complaining about. Personally, i would highly appreciate a nerv of unstoppable force but increasing our single-target DPS with shield slam.

While AE-DPS is a prot warrior thing right now, it wouldn't be after a nerv. So there has to be more utility for m+. Something community has mentioned more than once and has been ignored by blizzard...

It was higher, proportionately, before this patch, because of the loss of Defeaning Crash.

Also, since we have fuckall utility, if our aoe dps gets a nerf, what exactly is the point of bringing a prot warrior to a group? Would you prefer DK go back to being the only viable option again?

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Honestly they should just nerf unstoppable force by a small margin and probably buff some of the other tanks DPS. I'm far more in favor of this approach because DPS classes scale faster than tank classes, which eventually will become even more of a problem as the expansion goes on. This isn't that big of a deal overall if it wasn't for the fact that rogues are so mandatory as is, and making ToTT even more attractive would be silly.

While it would appear in logs, I hope people realize that you would have to dig deeper into details to find out how amazing spell reflect is in some dungeons, especially against bosses. You can quite literally chunk ~15% of the first boss in ToS if you time your spell reflect properly on cyclone strike (it still works, you just have to make sure the other boss isn't casting on you, or you'll explode). My spell reflect alone in a 15 ToS accounted for nearly 25% of the overall damage done to the first boss in ToS. That's a pretty extreme example, but there are plenty of other bosses where you can routinely take 3-5% of a bosses health off with a single spell reflect.

Am I saying nerf spell reflect? No. But when you add how much damage it accounts for over an entire run (it's higher in some keys as opposed to others), in addition to protection warriors overall damage, and you can see why people are turning to them.

Tank DPS does matter in keys. Warriors are pretty sturdy in keys (maybe as much, or slightly worse than monks) and do absurd damage by comparison. Paladins actually do pretty good damage, but aren't nearly as sturdy, despite the utility they bring.

You want an immediate and overwhelming nerf to something as hit-or-miss as Spell Reflect, but Dark Sim went untouched for an entire expansion on the best tank spec that did as much/more healing than a healer and more dps than a dps?

You should probably take a few steps back and look at what makes the entire run go faster, not "dis big number on meters". Also, I've never been able to hit a boss for 3-5% of their HP in a Spell Reflect up to an 18. Which bosses are you talking about exactly?

[Tojara]

Overreaction much? I clearly said don't nerf spell reflect, can you read? It's the combination of damage contribution from spell reflect and DPS which makes the key go so much faster. The obvious solution is to nerf the AoE DPS, which is clearly stated by me, and by multiple people in this thread.

Maybe you aren't using spell reflect correctly? Go stand in front of the first boss in ToS and cast it right before cyclone strike goes off, timing it such that you don't get jolted by the other mob. Watch as you absolutely chunk the bosses health down. Third boss in SoTS, first boss in UR, and two bosses in Waycrest both have bosses that can be reflected performing pretty large damage to the boss (if you reflect the primary bolt on triad, it's roughly 120k damage on a 15).

Blood DK hasn't had dark simulacrum since WoD, unless you take it as a PvP talent. Are we really going to judge current balance based on what balance was over 4 years ago, because that's retarded. Please nerf protection warriors because they were the only viable tank during Vanilla and TBC please. See how stupid that is?

[Rikkuu]

It was higher, proportionately, before this patch, because of the loss of Defeaning Crash.

Also, since we have fuckall utility, if our aoe dps gets a nerf, what exactly is the point of bringing a prot warrior to a group? Would you prefer DK go back to being the only viable option again?

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You want an immediate and overwhelming nerf to something as hit-or-miss as Spell Reflect, but Dark Sim went untouched for an entire expansion on the best tank spec that did as much/more healing than a healer and more dps than a dps?

You should probably take a few steps back and look at what makes the entire run go faster, not "dis big number on meters". Also, I've never been able to hit a boss for 3-5% of their HP in a Spell Reflect up to an 18. Which bosses are you talking about exactly?

For example, if you position yourself correctly, you can spell reflect all the projectiles of cyclone strike on 1st boss in ToS, which makes the arguably worst boss in that instance fucking joke on any level of keystone, mainly Tyrranical.

Moreover, while I agree that prot war doesnt have any utility besides nuts DPS, considering reaping is a meme I HAZ DPS affix, this creates a huge problem... in S1, you could still make it without DK, it was harder, but it was possible.... No amount of skill can compensate for not having a fourth dps aka Prot War, i think this is the biggest problem everyone has with the current situation... you just cannot "outskill" numbers, you just simply dont have enough dps without a warrior

[Allseye]

For example, if you position yourself correctly, you can spell reflect all the projectiles of cyclone strike on 1st boss in ToS, which makes the arguably worst boss in that instance fucking joke on any level of keystone, mainly Tyrranical.

Moreover, while I agree that prot war doesnt have any utility besides nuts DPS, considering reaping is a meme I HAZ DPS affix, this creates a huge problem... in S1, you could still make it without DK, it was harder, but it was possible.... No amount of skill can compensate for not having a fourth dps aka Prot War, i think this is the biggest problem everyone has with the current situation... you just cannot "outskill" numbers, you just simply dont have enough dps without a warrior

Yes, and before its was DK, because healers didn't had to babysit and could DPS instead. I'm not a fan to balance around some seasonal affixes. But we do all agree, our AE-DPS is awesome. But i would instantly sacrifice some DPS to get more utility. For me, utility is more fun than stupidly press TC.

[Rikkuu]

Yes, and before its was DK, because healers didn't had to babysit and could DPS instead. I'm not a fan to balance around some seasonal affixes. But we do all agree, our AE-DPS is awesome. But i would instantly sacrifice some DPS to get more utility. For me, utility is more fun than stupidly press TC.

You did not understand what i was saying at all. But nevermind, i am really happy for ppl that enjoy this game, however unfair their class is.

Have nice day

[Allseye]

You did not understand what i was saying at all. But nevermind, i am really happy for ppl that enjoy this game, however unfair their class is.

Have nice day

Perhaps i did not *shrug*. I understood you was comparing s1 with s2 and you think you could outskill it in s1. I do agree, you can't outskill it, but there is no difference to s1. So nevermind if i didn't get your pov :-)

[HeiAggra]

The only thing Prot Warrior brings is DPS, nothing else. No way to cheese or avoid mechanics, no self heal besides VR, no add pulling, still no 100% mitigation like some tanks.
So Prot brings AOE Dps.

Also for high mythic + the dps specs Fury or Arms lack utility, any group will bring a DH or Rogue even Monk over fury or arms.

[HeiAggra]

WOW 50% nerf in TC on PTR right now LOL!!!
RIP Prot Warrior for M+
GG Blizz