[Spoilers] Vol'jin and the Dark Presence

[Aucald]

Broken Shore was merely a setback? Voodoo Mon not remembering who put the Lich Queen in charge screams damage control from badly misjudging the playerbase's reactions.

Given that I imagine this was set up ahead of time, I don't think it's a form of damage control in any sense. The ascent of Sylvanas never made a lot of external sense in the first place, so this is more or less giving us the detail as to how and why this is.

[OIS]

What if it is Kel Thuzad???

I don't think Kel'Thuzad is that high on the totem pole. He could be working for whoever did this though.

[Super Dickmann]

Given that I imagine this was set up ahead of time, I don't think it's a form of damage control in any sense. The ascent of Sylvanas never made a lot of external sense in the first place, so this is more or less giving us the detail as to how and why this is.

Out of story it is 100% damage control when they settled on the Mists 2.0 version of this story. No one can look at the Legion cinematic, Broken Shore, BFA cinematic or Children's Week version of Sylvanas and come out with the impression that Blizzard want Horde players to dislike this character. Incidentally, all things chronologically earlier produced than BFA's real development when they decided the Horde was in need of another pruning and had to retroactively change things to fit.

On-topic, I maintain that this is a case of overthinking it. N'zoth appointed Sylvanas, she will use the N'zoth-inhabited knife to achieve his plan.

[Aucald]

Out of story it is 100% damage control when they settled on the Mists 2.0 version of this story. No one can look at the Legion cinematic, Broken Shore, BFA cinematic or Children's Week version of Sylvanas and come out with the impression that Blizzard want Horde players to dislike this character. Incidentally, all things chronologically earlier produced than BFA's real development when they decided the Horde was in need of another pruning and had to retroactively change things to fit.

On-topic, I maintain that this is a case of overthinking it. N'zoth appointed Sylvanas, she will use the N'zoth-inhabited knife to achieve his plan.

You can't have "damage control" before said damage actually occurs, though. "Damage prevention" perhaps, but that would actually strengthen the argument that key preparation was made before the fallout was planned to occur. I also disagree with the notion that a Mists 2.0 version was settled on, this is a false premise that traps the debate in a very specific fashion - we won't know this until the story is done and we can look back on it with a complete view.

As for disliking Sylvanas: a lot of people did and still do to this day. If anything they needed her to do heroic or altruistic things to add ambiguity to Sylvanas' characterization, she covered the evil plotting and scheming aspects well enough on her own.

[Verdugo]

You can't have "damage control" before said damage actually occurs, though. "Damage prevention" perhaps, but that would actually strengthen the argument that key preparation was made before the fallout was planned to occur. I also disagree with the notion that a Mists 2.0 version was settled on, this is a false premise that traps the debate in a very specific fashion - we won't know this until the story is done and we can look back on it with a complete view.

As for disliking Sylvanas: a lot of people did and still do to this day. If anything they needed her to do heroic or altruistic things to add ambiguity to Sylvanas' characterization, she covered the evil plotting and scheming aspects well enough on her own.

You would have a point if the writing team wasnt composed by a bunch of braindead monkeys that need an army of fanboys to wipe the spittle off their mouth.

[Super Dickmann]

Replace Mists 2.0 with "story where the Warchief turns evil and is replaced for muh honor during a faction war". This is off-topic, so we'll save rehashing that argument for another thread. The point is that they did created all these things to generate sympathy for Sylvanas prior to deciding they wanted to remove her to advance the lovefest.

As for disliking Sylvanas: a lot of people did and still do to this day. If anything they needed her to do heroic or altruistic things to add ambiguity to Sylvanas' characterization, she covered the evil plotting and scheming aspects well enough on her own.

On the contrary. These are things done to engender a positive reaction. A lot of people still justifiably disliked Sylvanas, and a lot of people who liked her didn't lean on her action in these for their support. But they were intended to be pro-Sylvanas. Sylvanas rescuing Varian, quipping with the Horde leaders, being conflicted and sad about Vol'jin and rescuing him and so on. Talking to kids about how she represents the Horde now, all these are made to be positive representation to get support behind her.

Compare to her treatment in BFA where she can't put her clothes in the wash without grinning with malice about how many microbes she'll slaughter in the process and every character Blizzard wants us to like like Anduin and Jaina talking about how she's lost, there's nothing left of her goodness and how if only we could get rid of her peace and love would reign.

[Aucald]

You would have a point if the writing team wasnt composed by a bunch of braindead monkeys that need an army of fanboys to wipe the spittle off their mouth.

I don't think that they are. I think there's a large and mostly unexplored area between being a "fanboy" and hurling invective at the writers or developers with the ire of a spurned lover, as it were. The writing does have flaws, yes - both of the informed and uninformed varieties. But I personally still enjoy the game and the story in the general sense, it just has its troughs and crests like any other thing in motion. BfA is something of a deep trough for me, like a B-plot in an ongoing serial you don't personally care for, but at some point the story is going to move on to one of the other plotlines that are better, you've just go to wait it out in the meanwhile.

[Verdugo]

I don't think that they are.

And thats where you are wrong.

I didnt quote rest of your post since its generic "wait and see" response that has been proven dissapointing time and time again.

[Theoris]

Something, something Shadowlands.
In all seriousness, credit where credit's due to the writers. I'm actually pretty curious who whispered to Vol'jin and who brought him back. Personally, my money's on Helya (one of Sylvanas' first actions after becoming Warchief was to seek her out, after all) and Azeroth, respectively.

[Aucald]

On the contrary. These are things done to engender a positive reaction. A lot of people still justifiably disliked Sylvanas, and a lot of people who liked her didn't lean on her action in these for their support. But they were intended to be pro-Sylvanas. Sylvanas rescuing Varian, quipping with the Horde leaders, being conflicted and sad about Vol'jin and rescuing him and so on. Talking to kids about how she represents the Horde now and so on, all these are made to be positive representation to get support behind her.

Compare to her treatment in BFA where she can't put her clothes in the wash without grinning with malice about how many microbes she'll slaughter in the process and every character Blizzard wants us to like like Anduin and Jaina talking about how she's lost, there's nothing left of her goodness and how if only we could get rid of her peace and love would reign.

I don't doubt it. I think Sylvanas' noble and heroic actions in Legion were meant to advance her as a suitable candidate for the position of Warchief to give her ascent plausible deniability, in a sense. It didn't stop people from questioning her ascent (at length) but it at least made it possible without revealing that an undefined something was going on behind the scenes, something that would bear fruit later on as it is now in BfA. If anything, I think the fervor with which people embraced Sylvanas probably took them unawares, given that Sylvanas has never been portrayed in a very positive light in the history of WoW (or even WC3).

Now that Sylvanas has the reins of power she is free to be more or less what she always was, she doesn't even need to put on the flimsy veneer she wore in the days when she wasn't the Warchief. She didn't turn into a mustache-twirling villain overnight - she always was this type of villain, is was only hidden either by the background or out of necessity as the case may be. She has scarce little to hide now, except maybe the full weight of whatever her true agenda is (and this only to ensure that by the time everyone is united against her it won't matter).

- - - Updated - - -

And thats where you are wrong.

I didnt quote rest of your post since its generic "wait and see" response that has been proven dissapointing time and time again.

That's a subjective argument that I can't fault you for, but don't confuse your viewpoint with the viewpoints of everyone else. Everyone draws their own lines in the sand, and just because someone else has their line elsewhere doesn't make them a "fanboy" or even a valid critic.

[Engal]

Nzoth lines in the Crucible of storms raid hint a something else :

' The Light has made a bargain with the ennemy of all '

So Vol'jin dies, is twisted by this " ennemy of all " and then is brought back by the light and the " hand of valor " thingy
I suspect the same thing happened with Calia.

[Archibalde]

N'zoth seems too obvious. That and I'd figure Old god whispers aren't necessarily going to hide the fact they're... whispers of the void or something like that.

It doesn't necessarily have to be N'zoth. It could be Xal'athat for instance. The flavor text on the artifact said to ignore her whispers as they are all lies, so it would fit with her being deceptive to Vol'jin. Sylvanas will wield the dagger at some point so that could be another connection.

[Super Dickmann]

Now that Sylvanas has the reins of power she is free to be more or less what she always was, she doesn't even need to put on the flimsy veneer she wore in the days when she wasn't the Warchief. She didn't turn into a mustache-twirling villain overnight - she always was this type of villain, is was only hidden either by the background or out of necessity as the case may be. She has scarce little to hide now, except maybe the full weight of whatever her true agenda is (and this only to ensure that by the time everyone is united against her it won't matter).

I'll argue vehemently that BFA Sylvanas is not consistent with her prior portrayal. Simply being evil doesn't mean a character is in-character. Both pre-BFA and BFA Sylvanas are evil, but they're evil in different ways and are very different characters. Hell, even the Sylvanas in these positivity-pushing stories are not all that in character when you get right down to it. BTS, in all its demonization of Sylvanas and its complete destruction of the Forsaken as they've been up to that point, gives Sylvanas random virtues previously never alluded to. Like a respect for Vol'jin as a leader, a great loyalty to his office as Warchief, a pride in that office and especially her conceit that were Varian alive, there'd be no war and how much she valued and trusted him.

This is simply not something Sylvanas had had before. Sylvanas wasn't invested in the Horde, she scoffed when those guys got killed by Sindragosa in the attack on the Lich King. She treated Garrosh's orders as directives at best and mocked his moral indignation to his face while subverting his agents to her side. She didn't want to go to Theramore not out of any moral considerations, but because that'd cause trouble for her. She was occupied with her own affairs and liked it that way. She also didn't engage in villainy for the sake of it. She let Crowley's daughter go for example, she showed respect to the Forsaken, protected them and acknowledged their identity as the once and future people of Lordaeron. Far from being barred from Lordaeron, you had Undercity Citizens going around their daily lives in the keep. Her fanbase was because of her commitment to the Forsaken, cunning and advancement of her interests, while not being part of the morality brigade.

BFA Sylvanas is all hat and no cattle. She has no brains, a lot of bombast, she does evil for the sake of it, blatantly does things like raise Derek in public for no reason and never spins or defends any of her decisions despite knowing she has room to benefit from it. She runs counter even to her BTS characterization, let alone her previous characterization. By the end of this, she will run counter not just to this, but to her own stated motivation in her internal monologue. She's an absolute shambles of a character, and it speaks more to how completely abhorrent her opposition that there was still enough outcry for Blizzard to produce an option to side with her to stall. That and her hammy villainy is entertaining when compared to the whinging, moralizing pussies that oppose her.

[Tuskboi]

In Heroes of the Storm, Zul'jin says "Ooh, the Loa warned us about creatures like you." when interracting with Mal'ganis, to which the Dreadlord responds. "What makes you think we weren't your Loa to begin with?"

I feel like this is hinting at something. Mal'ganis was on the Broken Shore, but his whereabouts are currently unknown. Vol'jin, after returning from the Broken Shore, says that the Loa whispered Sylvanas' name. This does not feel like a coincidence. We all know that Sylvanas has medded with Dreadlords, or rather, they have meddled with her, since Warcraft 3.

The green eyes in that screenshot do nothing to convince me that this is not the plot of a demon. It does not have to be the Burning Legion. Dreadlords have "gone rogue, if you will, before.

[Kythera]

I didnt quote rest of your post since its generic "wait and see" response that has been proven dissapointing time and time again.

After time and time again of disappointment, at what point do you realize that this maybe isn't for you? I'm all for constructive criticism of the game and story, but this isn't particularly insightful or constructive.

Speaking of criticism, imo burying the plot about Vol'jin's choice has caused way more harm to the fan reaction than good as a narrative device. From a player's character perspective, we're used to feeling "in" on what's really going on--much more so than the average NPC wandering around Azeroth would. From a storytelling perspective, I think part of why this plot has upset people is because we really feel out of the loop on what is happening right in front of us.

Having to wait a patch to figure out what's going on is fine. I'm even fine waiting until the end of an expansion for a big reveal (will we be raiding in Stormwind instead of Orgrimmar this time!?). But the action we're all now meant to question happened at the very beginning of the last expansion. And I agree(!) with Super Dickmann that Sylvanas's narrative path (not necessarily her characterization) took a hard turn from the Broken Shore and the throne room at Orgrimmar. We've known she's evil for a long time, but where in the world was a hint that Vol'jin's choice wasn't his own for a full expansion? There's such a thing as too much foreshadowing, and then there's also this.

[huth]

Given that I imagine this was set up ahead of time, I don't think it's a form of damage control in any sense. The ascent of Sylvanas never made a lot of external sense in the first place, so this is more or less giving us the detail as to how and why this is.

I still believe this lack of sense is essentially on purpose. We're getting so many decisions that (in-story) make little rational sense because somebody is purposely interfering with the process.

[Aucald]

I'll argue vehemently that BFA Sylvanas is not consistent with her prior portrayal. Simply being evil doesn't mean a character is in-character. Both pre-BFA and BFA Sylvanas are evil, but they're evil in different ways and are very different characters. Hell, even the Sylvanas in these positivity-pushing stories are not all that in character when you get right down to it. BTS, in all its demonization of Sylvanas and its complete destruction of the Forsaken as they've been up to that point, gives Sylvanas random virtues previously never alluded to. Like a respect for Vol'jin as a leader, a great loyalty to his office as Warchief, a pride in that office and especially her conceit that were Varian alive, there'd be no war and how much she valued and trusted him.

It's a different portrayal I grant, but I don't find it inconsistent especially in light of her changed circumstances (going from ruler of the Forsaken to leader of the entire Horde). Evil in the shadows with subversiveness and guile looks very different from evil in the open, which is more evidently self-serving and self-gratifying. Both are evil, though, and in the case of Sylvanas both forms of evil serve the same basic ends (e.g. the extension of her unnatural "life" in perpetuity). The "destruction" of the Forsaken is a different story, unfortunately, and while they as a race have suffered somewhat for the story being told I ofttimes think this is also an issue with revelation as opposed to an actual flaw of the story itself.

I don't remember Sylvanas ever saying she valued or trusted Varian, though. There might not be a war because Varian could've more easily held his subordinates in check than Anduin has, but beyond that I can't see Sylvanas having any form of warm regard for Varian.

This is simply not something Sylvanas had had before. Sylvanas wasn't invested in the Horde, she scoffed when those guys got killed by Sindragosa in the attack on the Lich King. She treated Garrosh's orders as directives at best and mocked his moral indignation to his face while subverting his agents to her side. She didn't want to go to Theramore not out of any moral considerations, but because that'd cause trouble for her. She was occupied with her own affairs and liked it that way. She also didn't engage in villainy for the sake of it. She let Crowley's daughter go for example, she showed respect to the Forsaken, protected them and acknowledged their identity as the once and future people of Lordaeron. Far from being barred from Lordaeron, you had Undercity Citizens going around their daily lives in the keep. Her fanbase was because of her commitment to the Forsaken, cunning and advancement of her interests, while not being part of the morality brigade.

Sylvanas still isn't that invested in the Horde. We know what she actually wants as per "Before the Storm," and it has little to nothing to do with the Horde's interests. She would slaughter and raise the entirety of the Horde if it were in her power and benefited her to do so, after all; and the war currently being fought is really a catspaw to Sylvanas to try and get what it is she actually wants. Even Sylvanas' commitment to the Forsaken is a self-serving one - first they were arrows in her quiver to be aimed at Arthas and the Scourge, and after Arthas' death they became her bulwark against final death. Sylvanas plays the Game with skill and aplomb, but it is still just the Game to her - and as soon as an alternate path to her own power opens (which appears to be the case in the upcoming content) she will likely abandon the Horde to its own devices and leave it to fight the war she started without purpose or hope.

BFA Sylvanas is all hat and no cattle. She has no brains, a lot of bombast, she does evil for the sake of it, blatantly does things like raise Derek in public for no reason and never spins or defends any of her decisions despite knowing she has room to benefit from it. She runs counter even to her BTS characterization, let alone her previous characterization. By the end of this, she will run counter not just to this, but to her own stated motivation in her internal monologue. She's an absolute shambles of a character, and it speaks more to how completely abhorrent her opposition that there was still enough outcry for Blizzard to produce an option to side with her to stall.

To what benefit is hiding her evil now? She's already crossed the Rubicon of some of the darkest themes you can possible have in a wartime story (e.g. genocide and/or mass murder of civilians), in the face of this her smaller acts of evil and cruelty are rather tame. I'm of a mind her actions with Derek Proudmoore were more to finally goad Baine into betraying himself to the Horde - setting up the Chieftain to expose him while simultaneously achieving her desired ends with the Proudmoore family. Sylvanas is far from stupid, after all; and her acts of overt evil have thus far all had a seemingly calculated goal. She still skillfully disassembles with others as well - such as her acceptance of Talanji's terms with the Zandalari becoming an Allied Race, or her display at Rastakhan's funeral.

[Kwento]

I don’t think we’ve ever met either of the entities responsible for this.
Vol’jin glows with an ominous golden light... I’m dreading Blizzard making him into another Lightboy.

[Aucald]

Having to wait a patch to figure out what's going on is fine. I'm even fine waiting until the end of an expansion for a big reveal (will we be raiding in Stormwind instead of Orgrimmar this time!?). But the action we're all now meant to question happened at the very beginning of the last expansion. And I agree(!) with Super Dickmann that Sylvanas's narrative path (not necessarily her characterization) took a hard turn from the Broken Shore and the throne room at Orgrimmar. We've known she's evil for a long time, but where in the world was a hint that Vol'jin's choice wasn't his own for a full expansion? There's such a thing as too much foreshadowing, and then there's also this.

I actually think this was a flaw in the movement from Legion to BfA. I think they wanted to go for a Shymalan-esque "twist" type of thing where what you thought happened (Vol'jin clearheadedly raising Sylvanas to Warchief) wasn't at all what actually happened (a third party interfering with this process for unknown reasons). A bit of foreshadowing or hinting at this would've served the narrative much better, but they wanted to go for the surprise twist thing - which is awesome when its well executed, but can come of as hamfisted when it isn't (such is the case currently).

Maybe they can save it, or maybe not. "Wait and see" is unfortunately our only recourse for now.

[LazarusLong]

While we mostly focus on death or void entities, I think that Eyir is actually much more suspicious. Could that be Elune or some other primal light being, similar to Calia?