What happened to Blizzards stance of end LFR bosses being wipeable?

[cparle87]

How many does have Zelda? Who knows Blizzard doenst put out numbers because their game suck and they get booed. PM me if you have numbers


*make blanket statment about the current market that you cant even prove*
"i dont agree with you"
*"RREEEE ELITIST"*

shot yourself in the foot with the nintendo analogy buddy, sry

Only in your imagination. Having a hard mode is not bad. Having an easy mode is not bad. Sorry that you only believe the former.

[Jastall]

The problem is the gear that LFR gives is too high for the level of effort which forces the rest of the gear to have inflated ilvls, either lower the ilvl of gear or remove LFR and turn it into a solo scenario that is truely a sightseeing mode. Otherwise, they always have youtube.

The gear is already shit, equivalent to a normal Mythic which is about as easy and far more painless to run. Plus other gear sources like warfronts, weeklys and emissaries make LFR half obsolete already in terms of gearing.

And the Youtube argument always makes me laugh. Because nothing encourages people to stay subbed more than telling them to watch their sub-based game's content on Youtube. What next? Guys, don't play and pay for shit in Fortnite, watch it on Twitch instead?

[Nnyco]

What difficulty? You mean telling people to switch to icewall? Is that difficult for you?

[Martymark]

Some of the posers here seem to be demanding "MYTHIC LFR" mode. LFR is a faceroll for people you don't care enough to do mythic, but just want to SEE the game they are paying $15 a month for. That's all it is, is a guided tour mode.

[cparle87]

"only in yourr imagination"
buddy, no ammount of strawmanning gonna save your ass from claiming fantasy market facts. Also good job being done with me

The "only in your imagination" statement was directed at your "Blizz doesn't show subs anymore because their game sucks and they were getting boo'ed". It totally couldn't be because sub numbers are not even remotely indicative of the game's health anymore? Nah. Let's just go with the excuse that makes us feel good that we hate the game and everyone else does too.

Also, what exactly am I trying to strawman? That argument gets thrown around so much as an "I-win-the-argument" button I'm not even sure what it was originally supposed to mean.

Was the argument you were trying to make "Zelda and Dark Souls released with only one difficulty and they're well-liked, so clearly if it worked for them it would work for WoW?"

[Strangely Charismatic]

Had a bit of my Dreadwake sub left so I figured I'd look at Jaina on LFR. Big mistake.

What happened to the KJ like difficulty that the devs said end bosses on LFR would equate to? She's easy as hell. Yes LFR is supposed to be easy I know but I remember back in Legion they said they found KJ the perfect difficulty in Tomb of Sargeras for an end LFR boss. She is literally a 70 mil HP loot pinata. At least Lei Shen LFR and Kil'Jaeden LFR actually threw something at you and had risk to it.

At least in FF14 with 24 mans you can actually wipe from messing up mechanics once or twice. Here you literally have free reign to fuck up as much as you want.

Blizzard seriously need to take a look at FF14 and it's 24 mans when designing LFR. The 24 mans in that game are still easy and doable by the average player but have mechanics that will wipe you.

Wiped to Jaina several times now.

[MasterHamster]

Player game design in a nutshell:
LFR is boring as shit (because it's unfailable), so let's keep it boring as shit, by keeping it unfailable. Just turn all bosses into damage sponges.
Nothing more fun in an RPG than to stand for 5-10 minutes attacking something that has close to 0 chance of killing you.
Like replaying your favorite SP games on the lowest difficulty with infinite ammo and wondering why it's not engaging in the slightest.

No chance of failure = no potential excitement.

ToT LFR was exactly the level LFR should be at. Yes, you should wipe if enough people don't know the mechanics. Then you TEACH those players what to do. In ToT LFR there was actual tactics required for a lot of bosses, there was actually grouping to manage certain mechanics, there was a proper learning curve. ToT LFR actually felt like a raid, even if it was still designed to be cleared by 25 randoms.
Lei Shen on LFR in MoP probably gave as much satsifaction (as LFR can) as every single LFR boss ever since put together.


But just like in politics it's easier to go with shortsighted crap than to actually build up and really soak in the bigger picture.
Yeah LFR is garbage, it's supposed to be easy, that doesn't mean it should keep doing the same exact thing, does it?

Of course your experiences in LFR is generally terrible, most people in there are the kind of player who has up until that point, depending on when they started playing, rarely if ever been punished for playing badly. They haven't sat down and properly looked at mechanics, because they don't actually have to. They will win regardless. Most of the time even if they stand in the fire some shamans passive AoE healing is topping him back up anyway.

It's so incredibly frustrating to see how people argue when it comes to LFR. They advocate for the very same things that keeps LFR being the boring, toxic cesspool it is. Bosses that are designed to topple over even if most people in the raid have no clue what is going on. Of course you'll end up with shitty experiences then, once shit really hits the fan and there's a wipe. Because the only way for a wipe to occur is if half the raid is completely clueless (no reason to learn prior, so why learn now).
Oh look a tank left naturally, because heavens forbid any sort of failure happens in an MMORPG. Maybe the game should start opening the Bug Report whenever a wipe occurs.

[kaid]

Had a bit of my Dreadwake sub left so I figured I'd look at Jaina on LFR. Big mistake.

What happened to the KJ like difficulty that the devs said end bosses on LFR would equate to? She's easy as hell. Yes LFR is supposed to be easy I know but I remember back in Legion they said they found KJ the perfect difficulty in Tomb of Sargeras for an end LFR boss. She is literally a 70 mil HP loot pinata. At least Lei Shen LFR and Kil'Jaeden LFR actually threw something at you and had risk to it.

At least in FF14 with 24 mans you can actually wipe from messing up mechanics once or twice. Here you literally have free reign to fuck up as much as you want.

Blizzard seriously need to take a look at FF14 and it's 24 mans when designing LFR. The 24 mans in that game are still easy and doable by the average player but have mechanics that will wipe you.

Generally the early tier bosses generally are pretty straight forward. You usually don't start running into things like archimode/kiljaden until closer to the end of the expansion. Kinda funny though we still had a bunch of wipes last night on jaina because 2/3 of the raid could not target the ice wall at the end it was just not selectable.

[Jastall]

Player game design in a nutshell:
LFR is boring as shit (because it's unfailable), so let's keep it boring as shit, by keeping it unfailable. Just turn all bosses into damage sponges.
Nothing more fun in an RPG than to stand for 5-10 minutes attacking something that has close to 0 chance of killing you.
Like replaying your favorite SP games on the lowest difficulty with infinite ammo and wondering why it's not engaging in the slightest.

No chance of failure = no potential excitement.

ToT LFR was exactly the level LFR should be at. Yes, you should wipe if enough people don't know the mechanics. Then you TEACH those players what to do. In ToT LFR there was actual tactics required for a lot of bosses, there was actually grouping to manage certain mechanics, there was a proper learning curve. ToT LFR actually felt like a raid, even if it was still designed to be cleared by 25 randoms.
Lei Shen on LFR in MoP probably gave as much satsifaction (as LFR can) as every single LFR boss ever since put together.

LFR has literally never been there to teach mechanics, considering it more often than not has mechanics removed. It's there for story mode/idgaf beer in hand mode. If that's not what you seek, good news, there's three other difficulties. I myself loathe playing in LFR so stick to Mythic and ez Heroic clears, but I'm not going to impose my vision and playstyle on everyone else.

[Strangely Charismatic]

LFR has literally never been there to teach mechanics, considering it more often than not has mechanics removed.

It does teach mechanics. You do the fights, you see the mechanics. You learn the mechanics. LFR has some mechanics removed so that it is easier, but it still has most mechanics in most fights and it is a good tool to get into raiding.

[netherflame]

The gear is already shit, equivalent to a normal Mythic which is about as easy and far more painless to run. Plus other gear sources like warfronts, weeklys and emissaries make LFR half obsolete already in terms of gearing.

Those are also another problem, the top tier of gear should come from 2100+ pvp and from mythic raiding, 2nd tier should be 1600+pvp and heroic, and the 3rd tier should be from normal and 0-1599 pvp. Eliminate LFR because as you said normal has no actual purpose and is already easy to run.

As for warfronts, weeklies, and emissaries; those should be tied to the highest tier of progression that your character is tied to. For example as a mythic raider my warfront, emissaries, and weekly quests should be tied to that tier of progression so that it has a purpose to those players.

Othewise we have to go back to a BC style, which eliminates/caps Tforging, model where eventually you completely outgear activities so that they eventually become useless for players as they move up the ladder. I'm not opposed to this because mythic raiding takes significantly more time then anything so actually eliminating some activities becomes welcome.

And the Youtube argument always makes me laugh. Because nothing encourages people to stay subbed more than telling them to watch their sub-based game's content on Youtube. What next? Guys, don't play and pay for shit in Fortnite, watch it on Twitch instead?

I mean they could improve at the game if they'd like to do the content themselves, I know tons of people that didn't play fortnite and watched it on Twitch instead. Now they are playing apex because they don't have to worry about a goofy building mechanic but that is a different discussion.

[ydraw]

Player game design in a nutshell:
LFR is boring as shit (because it's unfailable), so let's keep it boring as shit, by keeping it unfailable. Just turn all bosses into damage sponges.
Nothing more fun in an RPG than to stand for 5-10 minutes attacking something that has close to 0 chance of killing you.
Like replaying your favorite SP games on the lowest difficulty with infinite ammo and wondering why it's not engaging in the slightest.

The thing is there are plenty of people for whom this difficulty level is engaging. Not everyone is you. Other kind of video games are no different. Different difficulty levels exist for different levels of play skill. If you find this difficulty level boring, then do the next one up. If you find the hardest difficulty too easy and boring, then you have a legitimate complaint. But saying the easiest difficulty is too easy makes no sense at all. Being easy is the point of its existence.

I can beat Civ IV on deity after many years of playing it, but the first time I played it, I played chieftan (the easiest setting) and still found it fun. After gaining a deeper understanding of the game, I tried harder difficulty levels for a greater challenge. If Civ didn't have a chieftan setting, a large proportion of the people who tried playing it would find it too complicated and give up. That is why easy difficulty settings exist.

[crusadernero]

Raids now are harder than they have ever been in WoW's history. Less than 100 people in the whole world have killed the final boss of the current raid. It's not WoW's fault that you can't be bothered doing the hardest difficulty.

People just need to accept that nobody is meant to do all 4 difficulties. They are aimed at different groups of players. Some people will do LFR and maybe a few normal bosses. Others will do mainly heroic and a few mythic bosses. It makes no more sense for a heroic raider to complain that LFR is "too easy" than it does for an LFR raider to complain that Mythic is "too hard". That content isn't meant for you, your opinion about it is irrelevant.

People who complain about "too generous rewards" in LFR are likewise full of it. LFR rewards the same level gear as M0 dungeons, and is much more difficult than M0 dungeons are. What these people really mean is "I hate it that bad players are allowed to raid". And these people are rightfully ignored by Blizzard.

oh personally I dont really care about the 4 difficulties. I did once, but its been years since I cared about it.

Im just saying, raids dont feel that awesome anymore, to me atleast. Heck, personally I would prefer no LFR versions just to have some mystery tied to it(if you dont do what it takes to clear it on normal++). I would not mind missing out on clearing a raid, while knowing I didnt bother putting in the effort to do so.

Also, I think the huge amount of gear thats being thrown at us diminishes the desire to even enter a raid.

[ydraw]

Also, I think the huge amount of gear thats being thrown at us diminishes the desire to even enter a raid.

I actually think it's the opposite. I feel that I have to raid in order to get the gear to do M+. Raiding is still the only source of current level Azerite gear.

[Eapoe]

Had a bit of my Dreadwake sub left so I figured I'd look at Jaina on LFR. Big mistake.

What happened to the KJ like difficulty that the devs said end bosses on LFR would equate to? She's easy as hell. Yes LFR is supposed to be easy I know but I remember back in Legion they said they found KJ the perfect difficulty in Tomb of Sargeras for an end LFR boss. She is literally a 70 mil HP loot pinata. At least Lei Shen LFR and Kil'Jaeden LFR actually threw something at you and had risk to it.

At least in FF14 with 24 mans you can actually wipe from messing up mechanics once or twice. Here you literally have free reign to fuck up as much as you want.

Blizzard seriously need to take a look at FF14 and it's 24 mans when designing LFR. The 24 mans in that game are still easy and doable by the average player but have mechanics that will wipe you.

I’ve done this on LFR 3 times and every time has had a wipe on Jaina.

[Bryntrollian]

Had a bit of my Dreadwake sub left so I figured I'd look at Jaina on LFR. Big mistake.

What happened to the KJ like difficulty that the devs said end bosses on LFR would equate to? She's easy as hell. Yes LFR is supposed to be easy I know but I remember back in Legion they said they found KJ the perfect difficulty in Tomb of Sargeras for an end LFR boss. She is literally a 70 mil HP loot pinata. At least Lei Shen LFR and Kil'Jaeden LFR actually threw something at you and had risk to it.

At least in FF14 with 24 mans you can actually wipe from messing up mechanics once or twice. Here you literally have free reign to fuck up as much as you want.

Blizzard seriously need to take a look at FF14 and it's 24 mans when designing LFR. The 24 mans in that game are still easy and doable by the average player but have mechanics that will wipe you.

You mean like G'Hunn was for the longest time?

[Zandalariprelate]

If you want some fun in raid, the horde and normal/heroic version is there for you

[Poe]

This isn't MoP where LFR bosses took 7+ stacks of determination to kill.

Garrosh pre nerf, Lei shen pre nerf and Durumu LFR were the best content LFR has ever offered.

Every LFR boss since then is a joke.

[Volardelis]

Blizzard tends to balance bosses to extremes.

I prefer a fight like Jaina over one like G'huun any day.

[GrinnersGrin]

Active sub?

Audible kek