What does society owe those who are “unwilling to work”

[Draco-Onis]

But the argument from your side is that those people need to be provided for because they would die if not provided for.

So it would seem we are discussing both, no? If you choose to die rather than make even the slightest effort to provide for yourself, while perfectly capable of providing for yourself, how would that not be suicide?

The argument is that they would die in poverty taking a toll on society in the process, so no we aren't discussing both.

[Monster Hunter]

Depends on how you implement UBI but if you give it to everyone as you should it includes children. Also, we are talking about the US so...child welfare... 50 bucks in food stamps and have a nice day. We are talking about a super wealthy country where millions of children do not get enough to eat.

..and no, it isn't working in the UK. These are not problems on a national basis but on a human race kind of basis. Some people will snap out of it when they are abut to lose their house and some will not. The ones who do not are about to become a major problem both socially and financially. These aren't really things that are up for debate btw. The numbers are in and everyone knows that they are correct. Poverty is hugely expensive. The only problem is that politically it is a hard sell.

they become a problem for the charity's you can freely donate to if you want to. but the number who fall out of that way and it literally is due to unwillingness to work not mental health or drug addiction is absolutely tiny. people have to work if they can work, no one gets a free ride through life at the expense of every one else .

and on ubi if it includes children you can essentially at least x2 your original figure and the averedge house hold would still get less. worse those in the most need wouldn't get any more than those in the least.

UBI solves nothing its just something the middle class likes the sound of because they get paid too.

[Jehct]

Everyone deserve a decent life, regardless of willingness to work.

We're really deep into the mindset that if your life is to have meaning, you have to work. Which is kind of bullshit, in my opinion.

If someone wants to spend their life watching Friends on repeat they should be able to.

Ok. So lets just keep throwing money at them. When does it end? Say we give them 40 k per year. They buy a new car, new TV, and have rent for a few months. The annual spending budget for that person ran out. What do we do? Do we keep sending them cash? They have to be able to do whatever they want at all times right?

[I Push Buttons]

If you care so much about your tax dollars not being wasted on people that arent willing to work figure the solution yourself. The current approach negatively affects more people than these mythical free loaders and doesnt really get people out of poverty. They are still poor, but now they are working at a shitty job in McDonalds or Walmart.

There's a simple solution. Rather than get rid of the work requirement, we allow people to continue receiving benefits for a time after they exceed the income limits that exist for most safety net programs.

The problem with the current (US at least) system is that it punishes a person for improving their lot in life. Say, for example, your income is at 125% of the federal poverty guideline and thus you are eligible for various social services such as medicaid, SNAP, etc., which typically have income limits of 130% of the federal poverty guideline... If you get a new job paying you ever so slightly more and you creep up to 131% of the federal poverty guideline, you lose those benefits.

Thus you would be a fool to take a higher paying job unless it pays you significantly more (such that the loss of those benefits is offset by your increase in pay)... But that is almost never going to happen because you will be losing thousands (possibly even tens of thousands of dollars depending on where you live) in benefits... 99.99% of the time, someone in poverty is not just going to magically be offered a job making multiple times what they currently make for no reason one day. So you are essentially encouraged to remain impoverished, absent a miracle happening.

Make it so passing the income thresholds starts a clock and you have months, possibly even years to continue receiving benefits. Then there is no incentive to hold back, you have every incentive to keep pursuing better and better jobs, with more and more responsibility, gaining more and more experience, thus continuously improving your job prospects.

[Qnubi]

"Support every lazy fuckstick on the off chance they'll do something worthwhile with their lives!"

No. Disabled people should get help. those incapable of work should get help. Lazy fuckers deserve to die in the snow when it gets cold.

Murderers, rapists and the thief in prison deserve food and shelter but lazy people deserve to die in the cold? Being a criminal has more worth to you than being a lazy person?

So an upgrade from a lazy person is a criminal person. Omg.

[schwank05]

If your Unwilling to work then you don't deserve anything. If you are willing to work, but can't due to a legitimate disability, then I would suggest starting up the chain to seek help. First Family, then Local community, then possibly a local religious community, followed by County then state, and at absolute last resort Federal level. But I don't think that the Federal level should be the Go to first stop. Entitlements are already in the fast track to bankrupt our country and need to be one of the main focuses to fix/ reform IMO.

[Najnaj]

they become a problem for the charity's you can freely donate to if you want to. but the number who fall out of that way and it literally is due to unwillingness to work not mental health or drug addiction is absolutely tiny. people have to work if they can work, no one gets a free ride through life at the expense of every one else .

This is not correct, we are not talking about the cost of some can of beans and ajar of peanut butter at a foodbank here. We are talking BIG expenses to you and me.

Why do you think the estimated cost of child poverty in the US is over a trillion dollars a year? It is due to crime, incarceration and loss of income mostly.

[Monster Hunter]

Murderers, rapists and the thief in prison deserve food and shelter but lazy people deserve to die in the cold? Being a criminal has more worth to you than being a lazy person?

So an upgrade from a lazy person is a criminal person. Omg.

you tryed that a few hrs ago, it was stupid then, its still stupid now.

[Jehct]

Estimated cost for putting all citizens of the US on Basic Income $175B/year

Current estimated cost for child poverty in the US $1.025T/year

UBI would if not totally, nearly eliminate child poverty.

What are your numbers on this 175 B a year for all US citizens to be put on UBI? I did 30 k x 330 million - came out to 9.9 Trillion. So how much is this living wage UBI going to be?

[Qnubi]

you tryed that a few hrs ago, it was stupid then, its still stupid now.

Society agrees that even the worst possible humans deserve food and shelter. Can you argue against that? And you refused to answer why criminals are allowed benefits and lazy people don't, effectively making a lazy person a worse person than a murderer. I await you rational response on how you can claim a lazy person is less worth than a murderer. I think you argued the murderer/rapist or whatever can be "saved" and reintegrated in society and have offspring.. the lazy person can't? And if they can't they would be mentally ill and thus require the support nonetheless since he is disabled and can't integrate into society.

[Monster Hunter]

This is not correct, we are not talking about the cost of some can of beans and ajar of peanut butter at a foodbank here. We are talking BIG expenses to you and me.

Why do you think the estimated cost of child poverty in the US is over a trillion dollars a year? It is due to crime, incarceration and loss of income mostly.

and its alot less in the UK that has these system's im advocating. i mean Christ we spend more to reduce poverty in other country's than we do our own. because we give just what you need to bounce back, provide free health care tons and tons of services all with the aim to get you back in work, you may not like your job, but news flash barley any one does but its necessary so grandma doesn't die in agony needing a hip replacement.

and those the say fuck that and choose not to help carry the load, do not deserve to benefit from the perks, thats how we do it. and for that teeny tiny number who absolutely refuse and choose homelessness not because of mental illness or drugs for which we provide free help for. they need to fix there attitude then we can talk. and this is a system where we only have 320,000 homeless people in our whole nation. cared for by charity's. america has that in one city.

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Society agrees that even the worst possible humans deserve food and shelter. Can you argue against that?

to keep them from hurting others and to reform them into productive members of society, we went over that.. you argument is fucking dumb. you even re worded it 5 times and got shot down by like 3-4 people. then you went on to some rando hypothetical situation about some one cutting there hands off instead of working......... do you have memory issues or something ?

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What are your numbers on this 175 B a year for all US citizens to be put on UBI? I did 30 k x 330 million - came out to 9.9 Trillion. So how much is this living wage UBI going to be?

like always the source of the number is likely from professor sigmoid colon......

the whole thing doesn't add up. either UBI leaves the poor with substantially less money, or ends up costing the country substantially more money.

the real motive behind UBI is it gives rich white boys a bigger weekly allowance to top up what daddy gives them, thats why they like it.

[Qnubi]

and its alot less in the UK that has these system's im advocating. i mean Christ we spend more to reduce poverty in other country's than we do our own. because we give just what you need to bounce back, provide free health care tons and tons of services all with the aim to get you back in work, you may not like your job, but news flash barley any one does but its necessary so grandma doesn't die in agony needing a hip replacement.

and those the say fuck that and choose not to help carry the load, do not deserve to benefit from the perks, thats how we do it. and for that teeny tiny number who absolutely refuse and choose homelessness not because of mental illness or drugs for which we provide free help for. they need to fix there attitude then we can talk. and this is a system where we only have 320,000 homeless people in our whole nation. cared for by charity's. america has that in one city.

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to keep them from hurting others and to reform them into productive members of society, we went over that.. you argument is fucking dumb. you even re worded it 5 times and got shot down by like 3-4 people. then you went on to some rando hypothetical situation about some one cutting there hands off instead of working......... do you have memory issues or something ?

3-4 other people? It was just you. I think you should take a break like I did. You have been in this thread for hours on end and you probably are mixing up people and names by now. You are never discussing my points anyway and just attack me with personal insults. Why? Am I being rude to you?

[Monster Hunter]

3-4 other people? It was just you. I think you should take a break like I did. You have been in this thread for hours on end and you probably are mixing up people and names by now. You are never discussing my points anyway and just attack me with personal insults. Why? Am I being rude to you?

no your question is literally just stupid, like a whole level down, im not using it as an insult im using it by its definition. prisons server more functions that serving food and beds to people. we have them to keep people safe and to reform criminal's. thats like the 3rd time i have said it and about the 5th time you have been told.

here:
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...8#post50923218

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...5#post50922955

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...2#post50922912

[Qnubi]

no your question is literally just stupid, like a whole level down, im not using it as an insult im using it by its definition. prisons server more functions that serving food and beds to people. we have them to keep people safe and to reform criminal's. thats like the 3rd time i have said it and about the 5th time you have been told.

I understand that, but you are implying a lazy person can't be reformed? So why do you deny lazy persons any redemption? A murderer is probably harder to reform than a lazy person unwilling to work. No?

And no, they disagreed with parts of what I was saying but nobody even dared to address why we give murderers benefits to reform themselves but lazy people don't get that privilege. That sounds, and is wrong.

[Monster Hunter]

I understand that, but you are implying a lazy person can't be reformed? So why do you deny lazy persons any redemption? A murderer is probably harder to reform than a lazy person unwilling to work. No?

they do reform, very quickly when served and eviction notice. being made to give a fuck is how your reform them.

you motivate a person through selflessness (obligation and responsibility)
if that fails then selfishness (chance to get rich, luxury goods).
if the fails then self preservation( getting booted out on the street ).

same way a prisoner doesn't have a right to his freedom, a lazy person doesn't have a right to society's money. get it!

[I Push Buttons]

I understand that, but you are implying a lazy person can't be reformed? So why do you deny lazy persons any redemption? A murderer is probably harder to reform than a lazy person unwilling to work. No?

The best way to 'reform' a lazy person in that regard is to cut them off.

What reason could they possibly have to 'reform', as you put it, if you enable them to do the opposite? That's like saying the best way to help a drug addict is to buy his drugs for him. It makes no sense.

[Qnubi]

they do reform, very quickly when served and eviction notice. being made to give a fuck is how your reform them.

Are you trying to tell me homeless people can easily find jobs? Not even McDonalds would take in homeless people... if you take away a lazy persons home/food he can never be reformed because you don't give him any option to reform. A murderer you give that option because he can serve his time.

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The best way to 'reform' a lazy person in that regard is to cut them off.

What reason could they possibly have to 'reform', as you put it, if you enable them to do the opposite? That's like saying the best way to help a drug addict is to buy his drugs for him. It makes no sense.

Nobody hires homeless people..

[Monster Hunter]

Are you trying to tell me homeless people can easily find jobs? Not even McDonalds would take in homeless people... if you take away a lazy persons home/food he can never be reformed because you don't give him any option to reform. A murderer you give that option because he can serve his time.

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Nobody hires homeless people..

nobody's talking about homeless people. you become homeless. every one starts in a home because of child protective services. homelessness is the result not the cause in the modern world.

also in the Uk we provide houses to the homeless,
https://england.shelter.org.uk/housi...uncil_for_help

the only permanently homeless in England are due to anti-social behavior and passing the "last straw",choosing to be or not knowing where to get help.

most homeless you meet on the london streets have homes and beg because it good money. https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/64...t-not-homeless

naive people like you are easy to milk for cash.

[Qnubi]

nobody's talking about homeless people. you become homeless. every one starts in a home because of child protective services. homelessness is the result not the cause in the modern world.

Of course we are talking about homeless people if you discontinue support for lazy people, where do they live? What do they eat? So:

You don't want to support lazy aka. unwilling to work people. The result of this cut off is being homeless and left to starve. The solution to not starve/freeze to death is work. To get work you can't be homeless. That's basic logic right there. In other words, you let murderers have an option to become part of society again, but refuse to give that privilege to lazy people.

[I Push Buttons]

Nobody hires homeless people..

Sure they do, when they get their shit together by taking advantage of the programs that exist to help them.

They aren't going to hire someone with blatantly untreated mental illness that affects them to such an extent that they are homeless and living in squalor.