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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaktar View Post
    It's not a plot hole because there are so many possible explanations.
    It's a plot hole. That you can think of explanations for why it isn't used is irrelevant. The hole is in the plot, not in your headcanon.

    I.e. there is an element that should affect the plot in a major way, potentially rendering it completely irrelevant, but it isn't even mentioned. They don't have to give a specific reason why it can't act, but it should at least have been noted that it can't.

    Just having Turalyon say that the Vindicaar is "currently unavailable" would have been enough.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeula View Post
    Not really much of a plot hole since the vindicaar sees extensive use throughout the Drustvar incursion (Albeit semi-off screen with only its teleportation devices visible).

    The laser is also the racial ability for Lightforged Draenei, so the gun is in use.

    The dumb thing was never that damn powerful to begin with.
    This. People think that spaceship = super weapons. This is Warcraft and tanks can be destroyed by arrows or punches.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread
    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    It's a plot hole. That you can think of explanations for why it isn't used is irrelevant. The hole is in the plot, not in your headcanon.

    I.e. there is an element that should affect the plot in a major way, potentially rendering it completely irrelevant, but it isn't even mentioned. They don't have to give a specific reason why it can't act, but it should at least have been noted that it can't.

    Just having Turalyon say that the Vindicaar is "currently unavailable" would have been enough.
    Just to help since we apparently got stuck on the first sentence:

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaktar View Post
    If the counterargument hinges on the technicality, don't bother, my point is: spend less time rushing to be the smartest in the room who notices the most errors, and spend your mental energy elsewhere. Giant, irredeemable errors do happen (more true plot holes), but this one?
    It's like noticing a crack in a road the size of a quarter and calling it a pot hole; if you truly believe this was a plot hole, playing the game must be a brutal experience.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowmatrix View Post
    Anduin - What is the current state of the Vindicaar?
    Velen - It is currently stationed on Argus to protecting the remaining Dreanei and defeating demons attempting to steal Legion technology.
    Anduin - Understood, if we truly needed it how long would it take to get it back to Azeroth.
    Velen - With good luck gathering energy supplies and no demon attacks around 10 years.
    This is another good explanation, but I have different idea. Vindicaar was weakened by flying through Sargeras' fog.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread
    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaktar View Post
    Just to help since we apparently got stuck on the first sentence:



    It's like noticing a crack in a road the size of a quarter and calling it a pot hole; if you truly believe this was a plot hole, playing the game must be a brutal experience.
    Meanwhile, you claim that potholes don't exist because they can be filled in.

    And this is hardly a tiny hole, either. The Vindicaar could have easily rendered the entire storyline irrelevant and stopped Sylvanas attempt dead in its tracks just with the abilities it was shown to have.

    Your technicality excuse effectively means you shouldn't have joined this discussion to begin with. You're not entitled to demand we don't discuss the topic, and do not possess any power to dictate the terms.

  6. #66
    I'd just have it and the Horde's giant-cannon-aimed-at-Stormwind-that-they-inexplicably-haven't-used take each other out.

    I mean, this war started with "Hey Saurfang, if I wanted to take out Stormwind, how would you do it?" and the notion of that giant cannon never even got mentioned.

    Having the two used against each other to mutual destruction could play out fairly cool.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    This. People think that spaceship = super weapons. This is Warcraft and tanks can be destroyed by arrows or punches.
    The real problem is that people think only in terms of raw power. It's not the fire power of its gun that makes it dangerous, and all damage dealt ingame is based on competitive balance anyway and can't be taken as a real indication of how powerful something is in lore.

    A spaceship provides you strategic and tactical advantages that cannot easily be matched by a ground force. It changes the nature of the engagement. It's mere existence means the Horde cannot be certain what the Alliance knows about their strategic moves, cannot have secure supply lines and must assume that Alliance troops can show up almost anywhere without warning.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    I'd just have it and the Horde's giant-cannon-aimed-at-Stormwind-that-they-inexplicably-haven't-used take each other out.

    I mean, this war started with "Hey Saurfang, if I wanted to take out Stormwind, how would you do it?" and the notion of that giant cannon never even got mentioned.

    Having the two used against each other to mutual destruction could play out fairly cool.
    It's not aimed at Stormwind. In fact, the Alliance has no reason to take it out because it isn't aimed at anything relevant and can't be moved to aim at anything the Alliance cares about.

    It also would require utter idiocy on part of the Vindicaar's crew to be anywhere in its line of fire. Just approach it from behind, it can't turn.

  8. #68

    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Piamonte View Post
    Didnt you see when Xera tried to lightforge illidan by force?? I mean, i know she is dead but the army of the light followed her blindly. Also there is a lightforged npc Who basically says she wants war and purge the heretics or something along these lines.
    They didn't really follow Xe'ra blindly. Illidan blew her up into thousands of little pieces and the biggest consequence to that was Turalyon swinging his sword at Illidan, only to be calmed down almost immediately by Velen. If the Lightforged were blindly following the Light, they would have ignored Velen and tried to execute Illidan, or at the very least banished him and anyone who supported him from stepping foot on the ship. Instead they suggest you can put Xe'ra's remains to good use, infusing her essence into the crucible.

    As far as the Lightforged that claims she wants to purge the heretics, that's nothing new. All the way back in BC there was an NPC in the Draenei starting area that, in a moment of anger, wishes for a Blood Elf genocide. Emotions running high on the battlefield is normal. It doesn't mean they'd ever put a plan in motion though.

    There's really no sign that the Lightforged are fanatical people.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Meanwhile, you claim that potholes don't exist because they can be filled in.

    And this is hardly a tiny hole, either. The Vindicaar could have easily rendered the entire storyline irrelevant and stopped Sylvanas attempt dead in its tracks just with the abilities it was shown to have.

    Your technicality excuse effectively means you shouldn't have joined this discussion to begin with. You're not entitled to demand we don't discuss the topic, and do not possess any power to dictate the terms.
    Geez pal, is everything a fight to you? It's a way of reframing the experience to benefit you, not a demand.

    "Not entitled to demand" hahahaha, that wording... Even if I had been making a demand, that wouldn't be true; I can demand anything I want to, people just aren't under any obligation to acquiesce. They'd just have more fun if they tried it my way =)

    Look for plot holes, find plot holes. Look for fun story, find fun story. "But but it smacked me in the face." Did you notice the quarter sized hole when you drove over it too? Should we go to city hall to demand they fix it?

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaktar View Post
    "Not entitled to demand" hahahaha, that wording... Even if I had been making a demand, that wouldn't be true; I can demand anything I want to, people just aren't under any obligation to acquiesce. They'd just have more fun if they tried it my way =)
    Which is what i said. You can make any demand you make, and we can just ignore your demands.

    Nobody asked for your help to reframe the discussion for them. You just came in here and told us to stop thinking about it.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Which is what i said. You can make any demand you make, and we can just ignore your demands.

    Nobody asked for your help to reframe the discussion for them. You just came in here and told us to stop thinking about it.
    Yeah it's a discussion forum, I shared my perspective. Welcome to the format. No one asked you to reply to me either

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Archibalde View Post
    They didn't really follow Xe'ra blindly. Illidan blew her up into thousands of little pieces and the biggest consequence to that was Turalyon swinging his sword at Illidan, only to be calmed down almost immediately by Velen. If the Lightforged were blindly following the Light, they would have ignored Velen and tried to execute Illidan, or at the very least banished him and anyone who supported him from stepping foot on the ship. Instead they suggest you can put Xe'ra's remains to good use, infusing her essence into the crucible.

    As far as the Lightforged that claims she wants to purge the heretics, that's nothing new. All the way back in BC there was an NPC in the Draenei starting area that, in a moment of anger, wishes for a Blood Elf genocide. Emotions running high on the battlefield is normal. It doesn't mean they'd ever put a plan in motion though.

    There's really no sign that the Lightforged are fanatical people.
    Xe'ra had absolute authority over the AotL. And Velen was the highest ranking Draenei leader in the room. With Xe'ra gone, his command/word had the most weight.

  13. #73
    @Nymrohd Probably the worst thing for the Horde military command is that both mean that everywhere has to be considered as a possible angle of attack.

    I imagine most modern generals would just throw the hat and walk to the nearest bar when confronted with something like that.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Yup. Few things can beat absolute mobility and the mobility offered by the Vindicaar and the Void Elves is repeatedly shown in game to be extreme. And you are right that any sane commander would just surrender to that unless he significantly outnumbered the opponent's total forces, which the Horde does not.
    I don't think there is any reasonable response to this other than immediate attack. Which brings us back to the Vindicaar being a spaceship...

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Good god, who gives a shit about the cannon. The real power of the Vindicaar or the Void Elves using Telorgus for that matter is the ability to move around armies. The vindicaar could have placed several portal arrays in multiple points in Teldrassil, vastly speeding the evacuation of the city rendering Sylvanas original plan pointless; she'd have noone to take hostage. The Vindicaar could also help port most of the Alliance army BEHIND the Horde supply lines, cutting off their supplies and destroying them in a pincer move. The Legion could not jam Vindicaar teleporters within their freaking homeworld. Where the vindicaar is exhausted, Void elves who have portal magic we are shown is capable of teleporting a large strike force and is also capable of bypassing even strong arcane wards is there to fill the blanks.
    Sure the Horde also has access to portal magic but we have seen the limitations of portals. Even Occuleth cannot teleport entire armies. Jaina can mass teleport but to a familiar location and she cannot just spam it.

    You don't beat armies with lazers, you beat armies with armies.
    It's not like Void Elves are teleporting entire armies either. As for Vindicaar, a small force of Blood Elves crashed Exodar and it remained inoperable for years after that. Telemancy some of them into the Vindicaar and sabotage the crap out of it. Or capture Saurfang, pump him full of Blight, tie him up to canisters with even more Blight, set a timer to detonate and telemancy that contraption up instead.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    It's not like Void Elves are teleporting entire armies either. As for Vindicaar, a small force of Blood Elves crashed Exodar and it remained inoperable for years after that. Telemancy some of them into the Vindicaar and sabotage the crap out of it. Or capture Saurfang, pump him full of Blight, tie him up to canisters with even more Blight, set a timer to detonate and telemancy that contraption up instead.
    Only for it to bounce off the teleportation wards and explode next to Oculeth.

    Wards that the Vindicaar must necessarily have due to being build to operate in an area occupied by a force for whom teleportation is the normal way of going to work.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    A spaceship provides you strategic and tactical advantages that cannot easily be matched by a ground force. It changes the nature of the engagement. It's mere existence means the Horde cannot be certain what the Alliance knows about their strategic moves, cannot have secure supply lines and must assume that Alliance troops can show up almost anywhere without warning.
    You are right that it gives some strategic advantage. However, we can argue how useful Vindicaar is in comparison to classic portals. They can fulfill the role you mentioned aswell.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread
    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Kagthul View Post
    Portal's closed.

    It'd have to fly the old-fashioned way, and Argus is apparently far enough that Azeroth was nowhere near it spatially (which is why Sargeras needed a portal). Edit - meaning, it'd take quite a bit longer than 10 years, likely.
    Draenei/naaru tech does have limited warping technology. How the Exodar got from Outland to Azeroth, for instance. Though I do get what you're going for.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    You are right that it gives some strategic advantage. However, we can argue how useful Vindicaar is in comparison to classic portals. They can fulfill the role you mentioned aswell.
    Well, consider those portals and how they are typically made up. It's pretty much always between to points the mage is already familiar with, often with the end point being in a secured location, and we can assume there is some way to block these if they are unwanted, as that would be one of the first things any side would have come up with once they were aware of the possibility and it would be the standard way of attack if it wasn't.
    They also have sharp limitations on how fast people can move through it, and are typically open to both sides.

    The Vindicaar has been shown to be able to drop teleporter relays pretty much anywhere they want to and overcome such defenses, in addition to being able to physically deliver troops just about anywhere, and we can reasonably assume that it is now crewed by some of the most elite troops available to the Alliance, what with it being the AotL's main base.
    They can teleport multiple persons at once and immediately upon deployment, as shown repeatedly on Argus, with troops coming out the moment it hits the ground.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Well, consider those portals and how they are typically made up. It's pretty much always between to points the mage is already familiar with, often with the end point being in a secured location, and we can assume there is some way to block these if they are unwanted, as that would be one of the first things any side would have come up with once they were aware of the possibility and it would be the standard way of attack if it wasn't.
    They also have sharp limitations on how fast people can move through it, and are typically open to both sides.

    The Vindicaar has been shown to be able to drop teleporter relays pretty much anywhere they want to and overcome such defenses, in addition to being able to physically deliver troops just about anywhere, and we can reasonably assume that it is now crewed by some of the most elite troops available to the Alliance, what with it being the AotL's main base.
    They can teleport multiple persons at once and immediately upon deployment, as shown repeatedly on Argus, with troops coming out the moment it hits the ground.
    We've already seen during the whole Argus Campaign the Vindicaar and other Spaceships of the Army of Light able to do all those things. Why do they chose to ignore it? In fact why is it everytime a Warchief starts to mess things up that every asset either it is the Alliance or another neutral faction or someone who is against the interests of said Warchief tends to dissapear just for that Warchief's plan to have a chance? At the same time the specific Warchief's weapons are overrated to impossible deux ex machina's levels so he can get the upper hand when in reality he shouldn't have neither the resources or the manpower to put than plan into action. Why do they think that twisting reality so much makes a good scenario?

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