[Spoilers] Vol'jin and the Dark Presence

[Dagoth Ur]

I just don't want to accept that Anduin forcing peace is inevitable It's just so . . . stupid!

I may be too pessimistic or whatever but I think this is pretty much inevitable sooner or later. It may not happen after BfA, but with current political climate and all, two vastly different cultures setting aside their differences and learning to work together is just "too beautiful" of a message for Blizzard to pass up.

Anduin's like an omen indicating peace-overload equivalent of Ragnarok that will eventually swipe us all. When it happens, writers' decades spanning lesson in tolerance and unity will finally come to an end.

It's all about the message!!11!!

[Dagoth Ur]

I have absolutely nothing against Peace. I am just saying that there are vastly better ways to end this with peace than Anduin going "Oh Sylvanas is no longer Warchief, we can be best friends now, lol". As I said earlier, war atrocities simply turning most of us into Saurfangs (like what happened on our planet after WW2) or external threat actually winning and leaving us so weak we have no option but to band together.

I'm okay with short term team ups or what they've done in Legion, but definitely not a fan of long term peace. It's just boring and goes against game's core mechanics.

"We won't touch you and you don't touch us" type of deal I'd also be okay with.

Us being on outright friendly terms having orcs or Forsaken visit Stormwind or humans & nightelves Orgrimmar would be ridiculous though.

[huth]

@Wilfire

While the Legion picking Sylvanas is an interesting spin, the latter part is unconvincing because we know from Sylvanas' own internal monologue that she believes what Vol'jin said about the loa appointing her. She's a patsy in this, hence why I stand by the standard N'zoth position. Backed up by Sylvanas getting the N'zoth-filled knife in 8.1.5.

I could see the situation being originally set-up by Kil'jaeden and then hijacked by the OGs after the former died in ToS.

[Aucald]

very, very interesting, where did you get that model btw? this is my first time ever seeing it, i had not seen it on any "8.1.5 datamine" or anything of the sort, from here or wowhead...
but i think i agree, something is going on with the lich king... something, bolvar may be the one wearing it, but when he took it up he was already showing signs of corruption from the torture, and since then has become more and more... off...

The model was a late addition to the 8.1.5 PTR - based on the specifics, I would imagine it is supposed to be the new high-res and generic ghost model, given that the original one is kind of low-res and stands out as an artifact.

The lich king is no longer bolvar, bolvar has fallen, and the helmet may be taking over, i am hoping possibly his daughter showing up to chat with him might fix something like this, bring him back in control, and then and only then may he explain to us what has been going on, what darkness has been using him, and what greater death god we soon seem to face.

He definitely doesn't act like Bolvar, that is for sure. I called him Bolvar to underscore the coloration difference - contrasting the Arthas incarnation of the Lich King's icy blue motif to Bolvar's more orange/yellow fiery one, the eyes that appear during the questline definitely seem to be those that look out from Bolvar's incarnation of the Lich King.

now while i would say "blah blah its prob just co-incidence" we do have to remember blizzard puts this stuff in, much like the voices from the corrupted tree, blizz would not add those just cause, they add them because they are hints, schemes and ploys.

I don't think it's a coincidence, either. He's either involved or he's interested in what happens - I don't know if he's behind the attacks of these Shades or not, but he certainly seems to be watching the goings-on with some interest.

it will not be long before we find we have been helping the void for a long time.
imprisoning sargeras
wounding the planet
helping magni... a diamond king made a pawn...
and oddly... the same animation used for "empowering" things with azerite, then used on the void creature that appears in the heart... odd... there is so many attacking animations with azerite, but for some reason they choose to use the "empower" animation... hmmmmmmmmmmmm
this whole death god stuff...
"I AM THE GOD OF DEATH!" Yogg-

i wonder if the void has something we do not know of.
while the light brings life, the void may be just that... the end. and with it, are these old gods carriers of death, and is the void they serve the death, and well "hell" we so see, it would make sense why the shadow lands are called... just that... shadow... lands, and why necromancy and such is shadow magic...

N'Zoth seems to think so, given that he implies that the Champion is his (perhaps unwitting) herald and emissary to the world. Whether this is simply propaganda or has the makings of some master plan remains to be seen.

[FelPlague]

The model was a late addition to the 8.1.5 PTR - based on the specifics, I would imagine it is supposed to be the new high-res and generic ghost model, given that the original one is kind of low-res and stands out as an artifact.



He definitely doesn't act like Bolvar, that is for sure. I called him Bolvar to underscore the coloration difference - contrasting the Arthas incarnation of the Lich King's icy blue motif to Bolvar's more orange/yellow fiery one, the eyes that appear during the questline definitely seem to be those that look out from Bolvar's incarnation of the Lich King.



I don't think it's a coincidence, either. He's either involved or he's interested in what happens - I don't know if he's behind the attacks of these Shades or not, but he certainly seems to be watching the goings-on with some interest.



N'Zoth seems to think so, given that he implies that the Champion is his (perhaps unwitting) herald and emissary to the world. Whether this is simply propaganda or has the makings of some master plan remains to be seen.

We do also do a few things in the coming patch
for some reason we help him without evening questioning him
but then we get the choice to take the eye or get rid of it.
i am hoping blizz plays into this choice alot, but i worry players will limit that.
i am sure you have seen the drama over mekkatorque
imagine the drama if having taken nzoths gift or not locked you into some story, that will effect a future raid, where those selected have to do an extra mechanic, while those who ditched the void do not.

The void sees us as its ally, and really i agree with it, we have a few things
1. we are idiots we see something we kill it cause we want loot come on
2. seeing legion's I AM MY SCARS!!! and BFA's maghar orcs, it gives us a side of the light we do not like, and with this sorta points us to a scene
3. both the void and the light are evil, or well, not evil as morality does not matter to them. but they are not our allies.
Light will help us, embrace us, and protect us.
as long as we obey its every command and commit ourselves to only it, and follow its will
the void is free and lets those who work for it free to do as they wish, as long as it is for chaos and absolute destruction, what needs to be acheived is a balance.
either both must be embraced or both must be destroyed.
as an RPer this concept of the light being an enemy has been one discussed a ton, and is sure to cause alot of interesting lore, as the alliance, its morales, its laws, are based somewhat on the light, the humans, the elves, especially the draenei, even somewhat the dwarves, all worship mainly the light as their "God " even if they have other things behind that.

and velen out of all of them has already began to see this, why i assume he has taken alittle bit more of a backline, he is thinking, he is wondering, he saw what happened with illidan, and he got buddy buddy with him, and sorta started to realize he is his own person, not something for the light to just control, and with this, and maybe some talk with his buddies on AU draenor he may come to realize the light is... not as good as it seems.

I would then love to say broken in the alliance, or void draenei, but the already void elves and lightforged kinda ruin that idea...

[Mehrunes]

I think whoever is behind Sylvanas is Bwonsamdi's boss. The fact no death entity likes her says little as they all focus on hoarding souls for themselves, so for each and every one of them Sylvanas would be a competitor. If Voljin was buffed by other entity, it could either be Odyn or maybe a Naaru, or maybe Azeroth, although this last option I have my share of doubts on it as Azeroth is so far not involved in death, as far as I know.

I find it rather doubtful. Bwonsamdi is afraid of his boss, as seen in Vol'jin's urn questline. If Sylvanas was (at least indirectly) an agent of that entity, why would Bwonsamdi try to kill Sylvanas?

Sylvanas being a pawn of N'zoth must be the laziest approach we can take though.

Laziest approaches are Blizzard's forte though.

[micwini]

So because I don't have the Zandalari Empire exalted, I can't do the quest myself yet, but from the pictures I disagree with those eyes being Lich King eyes. There's a very distinct green centre to these eyes and the Lich King has no such thing. His are fire-y all over.
Also, I can't shake the feeling that I've seen these eyes before, exactly this way, as disembodied eyes, green centre, with a fire halo. But I can't remember where! This is going to bug me like hell if I can't find out what that was. ^^

Fel crystals in blood elf starting zone, most likely. It is what they reminded me off as well.

[Mehrunes]

I mean that it's a load of bullshit from an out of story perspective. Not that Bolvar is a liar, but that Bolvar is a hypocrite guilty of much worse and that the writers are hacks for casting the Lich King, the poster boy for undeath and upon who's val'kyr Sylvanas's whole necromancy is predicated, as a legitimate death entity materially different than she is. The Lich King is a creation of the Burning Legion created for the specific purpose of disrupting 'balance', which is itself a meme, to set things up for their invasion. He's not some cosmic constant. He's not even from Azeroth, he's 33% alien.

Hell, while Sylvanas raised a lot of people in Cataclysm, her doings in BFA, which include several dark rangers and like four people, of which two have died and another has gone rogue, pale before Bolvar, who's standard recruitment was robbing bodies to enlist into the Ebon Blade world-wide in Legion and attacked the Silver Hand while raising their dead as ghouls to attempt to rob Tirion's grave. This being an ally of his during a war with Satan, whereas Sylvanas has raised people hostile to her while at war with them. Bolvar has zero legs to stand on.

That's classic Blizzard writing though. They are putting Sylvanas in the villain spot, so everyone even remotely against her is instantly good. And since they were, as always, too lazy to even make a convincing reason as to why the Lich King, who did the things you mentioned above (and threatened the Ebon Blade with slavery if they disappointed him) is good, they went with the easiest and laziest option of metaphysical bullshit explanation.

Ultimately if she was able to deploy it in Stormwind it wouldn't matter if she could control it, she'd still destroy the humans. And then she can show up and give them the Forsaken choice.

The problem with Plague of Undeath is that the undead that rise from it are bound to the Lich King. Hard to give them a choice. Although the Lich King changed since then, but that only makes the results unpredictable.

[Super Dickmann]

That's classic Blizzard writing though. They are putting Sylvanas in the villain spot, so everyone even remotely against her is instantly good. And since they were, as always, too lazy to even make a convincing reason as to why the Lich King, who did the things you mentioned above (and threatened the Ebon Blade with slavery if they disappointed him) is good, they went with the easiest and laziest option of metaphysical bullshit explanation.

Oh, obviously. It's preparation for pinning everything wrong in the world on Sylvanas despite tons of people either being guilty as she is or directly complicit in everything they did. Or in the case of Bwon and the Lich King, easily argued to be worse by bodycount. But in the LK's case it's especially galling because it's pointless. This isn't rocket science people. "Did you make Sylvanas Warchief?" "Why would I make competition? Now piss off."

[Jastall]

I mean that it's a load of bullshit from an out of story perspective. Not that Bolvar is a liar, but that Bolvar is a hypocrite guilty of much worse and that the writers are hacks for casting the Lich King, the poster boy for undeath and upon who's val'kyr Sylvanas's whole necromancy is predicated, as a legitimate death entity materially different than she is. The Lich King is a creation of the Burning Legion created for the specific purpose of disrupting 'balance', which is itself a meme, to set things up for their invasion. He's not some cosmic constant. He's not even from Azeroth, he's 33% alien.

Hell, while Sylvanas raised a lot of people in Cataclysm, her doings in BFA, which include several dark rangers and like four people, of which two have died and another has gone rogue, pale before Bolvar, who's standard recruitment was robbing bodies to enlist into the Ebon Blade world-wide in Legion and attacked the Silver Hand while raising their dead as ghouls to attempt to rob Tirion's grave. This being an ally of his during a war with Satan, whereas Sylvanas has raised people hostile to her while at war with them. Bolvar has zero legs to stand on.

So does Ol' "A small loan of a million (unwilling) souls" Bwonsamdi, but beside the point. The whole idea of a balance of souls is bunk, because the cosmic forces are inherently in competition for souls and the individual death entities grow more powerful the more souls they have which by default encourages imbalance.
@Maljinwo

It was someone in the devs suddenly realizing they had no idea why Sylvanas was made Warchief and being told to make something about g ghosts or some shit while they think it up.

I mean, again, Bolvar did that when the world was ending. His actions were possibly even more ruthless than Sylvanas's, but there was method to the madness. Sylvanas doesn't give a shit and spent the Legion invasion first looking for a way to supercharge her goons and then trading fisticuffs with the Gilneans. So while I do think there's some bullshit going on (either on a Watsonian "why do you care about any balance anyway Mr Sauron reject?" or on a Doylist "why did you suddenly make the Sauron reject care about that, Blizzard?"), it's all bullshit, if you catch my drift. Maybe we're missing some information that casts Sylvanas in an even worse light, which at this point wouldn't surprise me.

Hell maybe the "alter the balance" part is actually meant her giving her undead free will which the likes of Bwonsamdi and Bolvar don't think they should have (and given how the Forsaken act, they wouldn't be entirely wrong but I digress). That would actually be a nice story arc showing us that the conception of balance and morality of powerful, demigod-esque entities isn't the same as that of us puny mortals

[Super Dickmann]

Is Bwon worse by bodycount? He just makes deals, he is not actively wandering around killing people.

I mean, we're bound to get him a million souls by the terms of our deal. And when a follower of Bwon kills someone their souls go to Bwon too. He has a massive amount of unwilling souls, far more than Sylvanas has had the time to least of all since Bwon has been around for thousands of years.

@Jastall

Sylvanas sent the vast majority of her fleet to support the PC in getting the Aegis while she took one ship to deal with her part of the plot. We know this from the Stormheim intro. Then Genn attacks her and the whole thing goes off the rails, but she has the intention of putting a lot of resources into saving the world. We are also later told she lead the Horde to victory against the Legion, something we never saw and can't confirm. At the same time, we didn't see Bolvar's contribution either, so neither can really be quantified. What we do know is that Sylvanas raised all of 0 people in Legion, whereas Bolvar attacked the Silver Hand first, raided their open catacomb to raise those paladins as ghouls and then went in, all to teach Darion a lesson in humility. All the while, he was nabbing bodies to power the Scourge.

He did fight the Legion to be sure, and the Ebon Blade's class order hall was the best one story-wise imo, but let's not kid ourselves about Bolvar's morality or that he had any ground to stand on vis a vis Sylvanas when both were going for the same angle. Sylvanas was just not the aggressor for a change. He didn't busy himself with balance, both because it'd be out of character, but because it makes no sense, since the Lich King is not a death entity. He's like Sylvanas, if she were leagues more powerful and had far more undead minions, all directly bound to his will. They're unlike Eyir, Bwon or even Helya who take people to the Shadowlands or a parallel world.

The latter concept is interesting, but I'm skeptical of any revelations about Sylvanas that aren't versions of "She actually did the Wrathgate" or "She opened the Dark Portal, not Medivh."

[Zandalariprelate]

Honestly the only thing that can save the Horde narrative is for the Alliance to actively want to kill every last one of them. Bonus points if the Alliance is well justified for it. The Horde was supposed to be underdogs trying to survive and for that to happen we must make it clear that the Alliance IS going to kill them all. And the only reason for the Alliance to do that would be for the Horde to help with doing something utterly vile. Practically they have already done that of course; no one lifted a hand to stop Sylvanas in Darkshore and everyone has troops at Brennadam. What we need is little children in Stormwind being killed by their zombified parents in front of the players while an orc is cackling and setting buildings on fire.

Honestly we don't need that, in fact bts Anduin threat to Sylvanas if she kills him, the whole alliance will go apeshit crazy and will strike the horde as no one has done before, so if that happens we can kill 2 birds with 1 stone or there is always the french revolution route if Anduin spends more gold with rebuilding the horde rather than his own people

If it really ends that way, I'll actually pay to have Anduin getting gangbanged produced and flood Golden's twitter with Anduin revenge pron.

OoF

I may be too pessimistic or whatever but I think this is pretty much inevitable sooner or later. It may not happen after BfA, but with current political climate and all, two vastly different cultures setting aside their differences and learning to work together is just "too beautiful" of a message for Blizzard to pass up.

Anduin's like an omen indicating peace-overload equivalent of Ragnarok that will eventually swipe us all. When it happens, writers' decades spanning lesson in tolerance and unity will finally come to an end.

It's all about the message!!11!!

With Danuser and the director of the cinematics confirmed his future as savior of the universe is just non canon or "possible future" they are setting the little treasure to be the maximum definition of kicking the dog for the next bad guy, also his own death was talked many times in bts(if he dies stormwind goes into chaos and if sylvanas kills him, the alliance will finish the horde). I can see blizzard using him to make another faction war between factions with blaming the horde after all the build up for peace they have done so far, literally a subversion Vol'jin with Varian treatment.

I'm okay with short term team ups or what they've done in Legion, but definitely not a fan of long term peace. It's just boring and goes against game's core mechanics.

"We won't touch you and you don't touch us" type of deal I'd also be okay with.

Us being on outright friendly terms having orcs or Forsaken visit Stormwind or humans & nightelves Orgrimmar would be ridiculous though.

I doubt blizzard would do that because we aren't near of the end the game where the playerbase is just a small few thousand, wow has still a good number of players to dodge the unification so the players can do raids/mythic plus/random group content. Although if they ever do the unification, they will do that with popular characters because even the most casual or doesn't care about the lore players(which are a huge number currently) they still know about Baine, Anduin, etc and for what I saw they don't hold into a high regard this characters