Poll: Would you continue raid/dungeon after collecting bis without possibility for BW/TF?

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  1. #61
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    Yes, and also reduce the amount of raid difficulties.

    Go back to fixed size raids too.

  2. #62
    WF/TF are integral to longevity at this point, and a major contributing factor to M+'s competitiveness against raids. It would actually be fairly easy to arrive at a quasi-BiS gear setup in a fairly short amount of time, after which you would have practically no gear-based reason to raid or do M+ anymore whatsoever. And since gear is by far the leading incentive in most forms of PvE content, that would very seriously hamper longevity.

    Now, that's not to say that WF/TF couldn't be curbed or restricted in some way. One good example of a proposal put forward is something that's effectively already implemented on weapons - i.e. you cap WF/TF not as an absolute maximum, but relative to its base ilvl. Say WF could be +5/10 and WF +15/20 - this would mean that e.g. a heroic piece could reach the first WF tier of mythic ilvl on a maximum TF proc, (400+20 = 415+5, for the current tier) but could not proc higher; meaning that only base-mythic pieces could reach the highest possible ilvl (415+20). It would work the same for normal gear (385+20 = 405 being the highest possible proc, i.e. the same as heroic + WF = 400+5) and all other gear like from WQs etc.

    This would put a greater emphasis not only on doing content actually appropriate for your current gear/skill level, it would also remove the "need" to repeatedly farm trivial content just hoping for procs (like e.g. how Method did Warfronts during their mythic progression just hoping to get some freaky TFs). M+ would benefit from this especially, because higher keys would become even more attractive (their ilvl tiers might have to be adjusted, of course).

    TL;DR: I don't think WF/TF should be removed entirely, but I do think curbing their impact somewhat might be a good idea.

  3. #63
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    I mean, of course I could. I've raided before their existence, and I could now.

    BoD could have been setup like this.

    Normal

    385 base from the first 3 bosses, with potential TF to 400.
    390 base from the middle 3 bosses, with potential TF to 405.
    395 base from the last 3 bosses, with potential TF to 410.

    Heroic

    400 base from the first 3 bosses, with potential TF to 415.
    405 base from the middle 3 bosses, with potential TF to 420.
    410 base from the last 3 bosses, with potential TF to 425.

    Mythic

    415 base from the first 3 bosses, with potential to WF to 425.
    420 base from the middle 3 bosses, with potential to WF to 425.
    425 base from the last 3 bosses. The only luck involved with gear here is tertiary stats or secondaries.

    Obviously in such a system you would only allow weapons to WF to +10, and tier/azerite gear to maintain their static iLvL. The above system could be tweaked to, I'm actually not opposed to the lower tiered raids having the potential to TF up to max iLvL cap. What this system does however is reward you by doing harder content, but eliminating the WF/TF luck with drops, all the while rewarding you as you progress through an instance. I was always a fan of the HFC design and also ToV design where later bosses gave better gear within the same raid, and a boss like Helya dropping max iLvL gear with the only potential for RNG being sockets (which I'm okay with).

    This would certainly make heroic, and to some degree normal more appealing. Right now it's pretty dead content because 415 Azerite gear can be acquired over 7-8 weeks by simply doing a 10, and doing M+ is probably less of a hassle than trying to learn raid encounters that drop the same iLvL loot. With the middle and later bosses dropping 5-10 iLvL higher than the base loot in M+, there would likely be more participation in heroic clears, which is something I think is missing from the game. This isn't just a symptom of BFA either. People ignoring heroic would have been a thing in Legion to if not for TF/WF tier sets, raid trinkets being amazing and legendary chance from killing trivial bosses.

    Such design would probably allow you to scale up quality of drops in M+ to a degree, but would probably require a more delicate solution. Considering however that M+ had no lockout on loot, the WF/TF system would probably be fine existing how it is currently. Them giving incentive for doing a 15 or 20 in time would be great beyond more dust though, even if it was heavily diminished. The only issue with this is some raiders wouldn't want to feel forced to push keys to higher and higher levels, especially those who only do one a week for their cache.

    Room for improvement though.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    snip
    I can do such claims just as well as you did yours in the first place

    Having no WF/TF left it to the player to decide when they were "done", they just could actually be done if they wanted to and thats the only real difference. Some people just like to be done and that was taken away.

    People are awarded for doing less, thats exactly what random TF from pitty source is. There is no way around it. People who put in the effort can and do get items faster, but that doesn't change the fact that people who put in less effort (or practically none) can get the same items if they're just lucky enough (except weapons and Azerite, lets hope they continue with that and remove TF all together).


    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    I love it when people resort to ad hominem like this. There are few better ways of conceding that you lack any form of cogent argument.
    You can call it ad hominem if you don't understand or can't argue with it, doesn't change a thing. But yeah, we all know which of the mentioned categories you belong to.

  5. #65
    Imagine a world without WF/TF and you have a currency that lets you upgrade your gear slowly after obtaining it, adding special effects and stuff ...eh dreams

  6. #66
    Of course I would still raid and do dungeons. The game was better before cancerous WF/TF was in it.

  7. #67
    Mythic+ would have tremendously reduced value, almost back to CM level from WoD and MoP, so even though I would still do them, there is no sane reason to consider the system without it.

    It is considerably healthier for a gearing system such as that to have the possibility of ever present upgrades, but its a questionable thing elsewhere, especially in trivial difficulties like emissaries.

    I don't know what you expected to see in the results here, but frankly anyone who would say NO just demonstrates they didn't play the game before Legion. But the answer should be "we don't need to think about yes or no," because the systems are built around titanforging and it can not be removed without dramatically altering how the content is made.

    So even if they DID remove it, something else would take its place for perpetual power gains, or gearing would change so much again that we wouldn't be able to compare it before and after adequately.
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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    I can do such claims just as well as you did yours in the first place
    Well, you've certainly made claims.

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    Having no WF/TF left it to the player to decide when they were "done",
    Before WF/TF there was a very well defined "end point" to gearing any content. While you are, of course, not wrong that it remained the player's choice where to stop, it is a well known phenomenon within any game that where any kind of cap exists, players will interpret this cap as the goal. What this means is that the cap becomes the driver of player behaviour. Which is, objectively a silly determininant of player behaviour. Gear is not meant to a driver for anything. It is meant to be a means to an end (eg defeating the final boss of a tier), and it is those ends which should be the driver.

    With WF/TF there is no end point based on gearing. The end point is therefore free to be determined by players by factors such as:
    1) Defeating the end boss
    2) How long players continue to enjoy "farming" for gear
    3) How powerful players want to get - and how much effort they are prepared to put in to get there

    So, as I already said, the older system works much better for players who need structure in order to compensate for their inability to set their own goals and moderate their compulsion to keep grinding as long as there is some carrot out there. With the BiS system the game works well for the small minority of players whose ideal effort/play time coincides with the amount of effort/play time required to achieve BiS.

    The new system works much better for players who have a better handle on those things, who can set goals, who are flexible and who can figure out for themselves how much they want to play instead of feeling compelled to chase every carrot just because they exist. With WF/TF the game works well regardless of what the players ideal effort/play time is. It's only a problem for people who lack the ability to recognise when it's ok to stop grinding and who have the self control to step back and not keep chasing pointless rewards just because they exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    Some people just like to be done and that was taken away.
    Please explain what is stopping you from being "done" with WF/TF?

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    People who put in the effort can and do get items faster, but that doesn't change the fact that people who put in less effort (or practically none) can get the same items if they're just lucky enough.
    And? Where is the problem?

    So what if the system allows people who put in less effort a chance at a lucky upgrade and a piece of gear typically won by people tackling harder content? That doesn't change the fact that people who put in more effort and do harder content are going to have significantly better gear overall.

    You seem to place far too much value on the importance of a single "lucky" piece of gear and it is clouding your perspective of the bigger picture.

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    You can call it ad hominem if you don't understand or can't argue with it
    What is so hard to understand? You're basically saying that anyone who doesn't share your opinion is clearly just some scrub who doesn't care about the game - and therefore their opinion doesn't count.

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    But yeah, we all know which of the mentioned categories you belong to.
    Good. Double down on the personal insults. You're just reinforcing what I already said: If you have to resort to attacking the person instead of their argument, you've already lost.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Adlian View Post
    Imagine a world without WF/TF and you have a currency that lets you upgrade your gear slowly after obtaining it
    We already had that. The result was that everyone tried to tailor their playstyle according to reaching the VP cap for the week. I have a good memory, and I remember how rife the forums were back then with endless whining: On the one hand about "lol, there is nothing to do after reaching VP cap"; On the other hand "VP cap forces us to do a whole lot of shit we don't want to do".

    Now the argument has become "the game doesn't force us into doing anything specific so I can't decide what to do".

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Jowany View Post
    Hey everybody, at first I am not discussing if is titanforging and warforging good or bad, it's cons and pros..

    Just imagine days in older xpacks like Wrath of the Lich King, you had specific ilvl gear from raid/dungeon. I played WotLK on private server, where one content/raid was like one year, whole xpack took like 5 years. I collected gear in few months and after that I raided just for fun with guild and enjoyed the raid and bosses.

    Will you continue with raiding and doing dungeons if you collected all bis items without any chance for upgrade due to nonexisted TF/WF? Or you will just collect best gear and end raiding until next raid?

    4 days ago I leveled my blood DK, now I am at 396 ilvl after normal/hc BoD and 1st boss myth, all dungeons myth 0, and few pluses. Now I can get 400 from 10+ myth dungeons and BoD HC and I am done, but I am "forced" to continue due to chance for TF. So you are always in state with posible upgrade with low chance, but there is a chance.

    Let me know, if you lose motivation for doing content if TF/WF isn't a thing.
    I raided before, long before WF/TF. Only difference would be that I would not bother with Normal as much or pug runs of heroic. Then again, these days I only raid with guild, and I could care less if it WF/TF. If it does, then more power to ya! I'm here to have fun playing a stupid video game...

    Anyone complaining is a complete ding-a-ling. Noone is forcing you, unless your some kind of Mega Hardcore mythic raiding guild. Time to let your kahunas drop and leave the guild so you can enjoying your $15 spent per month.

  10. #70
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    WF/TF was one of the worst mistakes Blizzard could implement, further pushing their diablo/casino style of game, catering to the LFR crowd.
    Having an end goal when it comes to gear was always a nice feeling of accomplishment, nowdays I hear people being disappointed when getting their BIS item because it didn't procc a socket or WF/TF.

    But everyone with two braincells knows why Blizzard pushes these changes, along with the removal of masterloot and azerite necklace.

  11. #71
    Given I don't have any way of raiding the current tier, and my iLvl is >400 - I'd love to be raiding even normal BoD.

    I gear to raid, even when I can't raid

    Challenge Mode : Play WoW like my disability has me play:
    You will need two people, Brian MUST use the mouse for movement/looking and John MUST use the keyboard for casting, attacking, healing etc.
    Briand and John share the same goal, same intentions - but they can't talk to each other, however they can react to each other's in game activities.
    Now see how far Brian and John get in WoW.


  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    I mean, of course I could. I've raided before their existence, and I could now.

    BoD could have been setup like this.

    Normal

    385 base from the first 3 bosses, with potential TF to 400.
    390 base from the middle 3 bosses, with potential TF to 405.
    395 base from the last 3 bosses, with potential TF to 410.

    Heroic

    400 base from the first 3 bosses, with potential TF to 415.
    405 base from the middle 3 bosses, with potential TF to 420.
    410 base from the last 3 bosses, with potential TF to 425.

    Mythic

    415 base from the first 3 bosses, with potential to WF to 425.
    420 base from the middle 3 bosses, with potential to WF to 425.
    425 base from the last 3 bosses. The only luck involved with gear here is tertiary stats or secondaries.
    This looks really good and could motivate to improve your self and guild party to do harder bosses. Also this system is more rewarding for progression.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Well, you've certainly made claims.
    As did you, which were just as out of "whack" (aka without any proof) as mine.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Before WF/TF there was a very well defined "end point" to gearing any content. While you are, of course, not wrong that it remained the player's choice where to stop, it is a well known phenomenon within any game that where any kind of cap exists, players will interpret this cap as the goal. What this means is that the cap becomes the driver of player behaviour. Which is, objectively a silly determininant of player behaviour. Gear is not meant to a driver for anything. It is meant to be a means to an end (eg defeating the final boss of a tier), and it is those ends which should be the driver.

    With WF/TF there is no end point based on gearing. The end point is therefore free to be determined by players by factors such as:
    1) Defeating the end boss
    2) How long players continue to enjoy "farming" for gear
    3) How powerful players want to get - and how much effort they are prepared to put in to get there

    So, as I already said, the older system works much better for players who need structure in order to compensate for their inability to set their own goals and moderate their compulsion to keep grinding as long as there is some carrot out there. With the BiS system the game works well for the small minority of players whose ideal effort/play time coincides with the amount of effort/play time required to achieve BiS.

    The new system works much better for players who have a better handle on those things, who can set goals, who are flexible and who can figure out for themselves how much they want to play instead of feeling compelled to chase every carrot just because they exist. With WF/TF the game works well regardless of what the players ideal effort/play time is. It's only a problem for people who lack the ability to recognise when it's ok to stop grinding and who have the self control to step back and not keep chasing pointless rewards just because they exist.
    And if the driver should be defeating the end boss then gear doesn't matter at all, aka it could be removed as you could have plenty of other systems in place to power up characters (as we've seen them implement into gear).

    All you said there just proves that WF/TF is a terrible system and serves no real point, only thing you get out of it is "Vegas happiness" when something happens and frustration in every other case.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Please explain what is stopping you from being "done" with WF/TF?
    RNG stops it, I literally can't be "done" because theres too much RNG in getting there.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    And? Where is the problem?

    So what if the system allows people who put in less effort a chance at a lucky upgrade and a piece of gear typically won by people tackling harder content? That doesn't change the fact that people who put in more effort and do harder content are going to have significantly better gear overall.

    You seem to place far too much value on the importance of a single "lucky" piece of gear and it is clouding your perspective of the bigger picture.
    Where is the problem? Take anything as an example in real world and you should see where the problem is.

    RNG is good but only up to a point. Its only a problem if you're able to wish world largest fish with a worm hook while pro-fishers are getting small things with their months and months of fishing with superior skill and equipment.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    What is so hard to understand? You're basically saying that anyone who doesn't share your opinion is clearly just some scrub who doesn't care about the game - and therefore their opinion doesn't count
    .
    Opinions are opinions, facts are facts. This is like trying to sell vaccines to anti-vaxxer


    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Good. Double down on the personal insults. You're just reinforcing what I already said: If you have to resort to attacking the person instead of their argument, you've already lost.
    Its not an insult, just an observation. Learn the difference, please.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    As did you, which were just as out of "whack" (aka without any proof) as mine.
    At least I offered reasoning. That's the point I am making. You keep on making claims, but your reasoning is lacking. And when challenged, instead of addressing the arguments, you resort to make disparaging remarks about the person.

    For example, you wrote: "Current system is just horrible anyway you look at it and only people that "enjoy" it are those who "didn't care" in the first place and entitled brats. Its just that simple and one can only hope Blizzard gets their head out of that gigantic arse of theirs and actually makes the game good again".

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    And if the driver should be defeating the end boss then gear doesn't matter at all
    In theory yes. They could implement a completely different method for character power progression. But that would be an entirely different topic of discussion. WoW uses gear as one of its main means to advance character power advancement. The question of WF/TF is about how that mechanism is implemented, not about whether it should be implemented.

    So in the context of this discussion, gear does actually matter. It is the means to the end. But it isn't the end in and of itself. In other words, it does matter that you get regular gear upgrades. It doesn't matter whether you don't get your BiS.

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    All you said there just proves that WF/TF is a terrible system and serves no real point, only thing you get out of it is "Vegas happiness" when something happens and frustration in every other case.
    The frustration is not necessarily an inherent property of the system though. It's a function of the way in which the individual reacts to the system. You are part of the system. Now, if you could somehow demonstrate that your frustration is representative of a majority of the playerbase, then you would have a point that the game is at fault but not you.

    But you can't do that, and the fact that people like me and the people I play with have a completely different experience is enough to suggest that your frustration is actually your issue, not the game's. This is further backed up by all the other stuff you say, like in this next point...

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    RNG stops it, I literally can't be "done" because theres too much RNG in getting there.
    I am not asking why you can't achieve BiS. I am asking you why you can't find a point other than BiS at which to be "done". That's my whole point here: Your problem is your obsession with BiS. Of course you're going to be frustrated by a system that is designed to make sure you cannot ever get BiS. What amazes me is that you fail to understand where the actual problem lies.

    It is not RNG's fault that you can't be "done" when you've had enough of a tier. It's not RNG's fault that you refuse to stop torturing yourself in pursuit of upgrades that you don't need, simply because they exist.

    How about playing the game the way it is meant to be played, instead of insisting that you want to play it your way, and then complaining that it's a horrible system because you're not enjoying it.

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    Where is the problem? Take anything as an example in real world and you should see where the problem is.

    RNG is good but only up to a point. Its only a problem if you're able to wish world largest fish with a worm hook while pro-fishers are getting small things with their months and months of fishing with superior skill and equipment.
    Ironically this is a very good analogy, only you completely failed to understand it. In the real (reel haha!) world it's totally possible for anyone to catch the world's largest fish even with a worm hook (no wishing involved). But the fact remains that the most successful fishermen will be the pro-fishers.

    Yes, I fully accept the "fact" that anyone can get access to any piece of gear. But that doesn't that everyone will have equally good gear. Your notion that the primary determinant of the quality of your gear is "luck" is absurd. Luck has an effect, but a small one. In practice, the quality of your gear (not just one piece, but your combined gear) is in no uncertain terms, primarily dictated by the level of content you're doing and your level of committment and effort.


    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    Opinions are opinions, facts are facts. This is like trying to sell vaccines to anti-vaxxer
    And you're the anti-vaxxer.

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    Its not an insult, just an observation. Learn the difference, please.
    Stop being disingenuous.

    "Current system is just horrible anyway you look at it and only people that "enjoy" it are those who "didn't care" in the first place and entitled brats."

    Even if I ignore the disparaging tone of being told that I don't care about the game (why? because obviously I am just a scrub or somesuch elitist crap), you outright called me an entitled brat.

    Even the above comment, telling me "learn the difference, please" is condescending and disrespectful, doubly so given that you're basically trying to pretend that you did no wrong.

  15. #75

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    At least I offered reasoning. That's the point I am making. You keep on making claims, but your reasoning is lacking. And when challenged, instead of addressing the arguments, you resort to make disparaging remarks about the person.

    For example, you wrote: "Current system is just horrible anyway you look at it and only people that "enjoy" it are those who "didn't care" in the first place and entitled brats. Its just that simple and one can only hope Blizzard gets their head out of that gigantic arse of theirs and actually makes the game good again".
    I offered as much reasoning as you did in the quote I made. You could've tried to counter it but instead started to whine about "nothing backs up those claims", after all its you who started throwing claims without backup.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    In theory yes. They could implement a completely different method for character power progression. But that would be an entirely different topic of discussion. WoW uses gear as one of its main means to advance character power advancement. The question of WF/TF is about how that mechanism is implemented, not about whether it should be implemented.

    So in the context of this discussion, gear does actually matter. It is the means to the end. But it isn't the end in and of itself. In other words, it does matter that you get regular gear upgrades. It doesn't matter whether you don't get your BiS.
    The question with WF/TF definitely is whether it should be implemented at all or not. Character power is one of the main drivers in a game that focuses solely on character progression, and when that driver is near fully decided by RNG then it just makes the system horrible.

    You can have RNG alongside other means to get it, but RNG being the main or in cases the only factor just makes the system horrible. Aka the system is just horrible anyway you look at it (it really isn't that hard to comprehend).

    WF/TF system just isn't Regular (as you say upgrades should be), so even in your logic the system is bad whether or not you're willing to accept it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    The frustration is not necessarily an inherent property of the system though. It's a function of the way in which the individual reacts to the system. You are part of the system. Now, if you could somehow demonstrate that your frustration is representative of a majority of the playerbase, then you would have a point that the game is at fault but not you.

    But you can't do that, and the fact that people like me and the people I play with have a completely different experience is enough to suggest that your frustration is actually your issue, not the game's. This is further backed up by all the other stuff you say, like in this next point...
    Well this just reads as "Genocide isn't a bad thing in itself, its only how people see it". Like, really?

    If a system makes people frustrated then that is the systems fault and it should be changed (or removed). We've seen polls and polls about the subject and they've all came to same conclusion that it sucks in its current form (aka unlimited & no other way of getting upgrades)

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    I am not asking why you can't achieve BiS. I am asking you why you can't find a point other than BiS at which to be "done". That's my whole point here: Your problem is your obsession with BiS. Of course you're going to be frustrated by a system that is designed to make sure you cannot ever get BiS. What amazes me is that you fail to understand where the actual problem lies.

    It is not RNG's fault that you can't be "done" when you've had enough of a tier. It's not RNG's fault that you refuse to stop torturing yourself in pursuit of upgrades that you don't need, simply because they exist.

    How about playing the game the way it is meant to be played, instead of insisting that you want to play it your way, and then complaining that it's a horrible system because you're not enjoying it.
    Because the game can offer more loot, if you're lucky enough. Simple as that, its the same reason why without WF/TF people believed BiS to be the end.

    If you want to use "just stop when you want" as an argument on favor for WF/TF system then I'll use the same argument in favor for no WF/TF. Its just that simple

    It is RNG's fault that I can't get upgrades when I'm doing the content, It is RNG's fault because I need those upgrade. You're not the person to say if one needs said upgrades or not unless you give the same power to me to decide that you don't need gear at all and it should be removed (or anything else less major, as in people not getting WF/TF procs for content they overgear (aka people who don't give a shit about gear and only do WQ's)).

    You want me to play the game the way its meant to be played (aka doing content to get gear) but then you want me to stop playing the game the way its supposed to be played because RNG makes it frustrating?
    Yeah, you really don't have any valid arguments whatsoever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Ironically this is a very good analogy, only you completely failed to understand it. In the real (reel haha!) world it's totally possible for anyone to catch the world's largest fish even with a worm hook (no wishing involved). But the fact remains that the most successful fishermen will be the pro-fishers.

    Yes, I fully accept the "fact" that anyone can get access to any piece of gear. But that doesn't that everyone will have equally good gear. Your notion that the primary determinant of the quality of your gear is "luck" is absurd. Luck has an effect, but a small one. In practice, the quality of your gear (not just one piece, but your combined gear) is in no uncertain terms, primarily dictated by the level of content you're doing and your level of committment and effort.
    Except in reality its not possible, since the largest fishes don't live in places you do hook&line fishing. Its that simple. Just like in WoW you shouldn't get the best item for doing a simple WQ.

    Luck has a really major effect on how much you have gear. Sure people who only do WQ's won't be decked in max ilvl gear but there can be a guy with majority of their gear like it and that alone is too much. They didn't do anything to deserve it and they likely won't do anything with it (other than WQ's which they could've done with the normal WQ gear just as well).

    Even if we talk about only Mythic quality gear we can see ~9 (since azerite can't WF/TF) ilvl differences between people who did the same content, now take sockets etc. into account and their difference can be (guestimating) around 20% for doing the same content with the same class same amount of times and basically having the same items - one just happens to be lucky with TF/Sockets. Now its going to be more major if you jump down to Heroic or Normal difficulty levels because theres chances for TF.

    The higher up you go in terms of skill in the game and the higher difference you'll see with RNG. People just can't get that much better than others in the game but they can get luckier with RNG.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    And you're the anti-vaxxer.
    You'd like to be right but sadly you're wrong with that assessment as you are with others in this topic.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Stop being disingenuous.

    "Current system is just horrible anyway you look at it and only people that "enjoy" it are those who "didn't care" in the first place and entitled brats."

    Even if I ignore the disparaging tone of being told that I don't care about the game (why? because obviously I am just a scrub or somesuch elitist crap), you outright called me an entitled brat.

    Even the above comment, telling me "learn the difference, please" is condescending and disrespectful, doubly so given that you're basically trying to pretend that you did no wrong.
    You just assumed the category, and it would still be only an observation. As for asking you to learn the difference, its just me hoping you'd learn it. If you find it insulting, condescending or disrespectful then maybe its time to not take everything like its an assessment of you but rather as they are, a friendly suggestion to learn.

    Oh well, explains current generation (for the lack of better word) perfectly - just trying to find something to be offended about.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    I offered as much reasoning as you did in the quote I made.
    What reasoning? All you've made is claims with no backing or warrant: Do everyone a favour and go look up Toulmin's scheme of reasoning and then show me what parts of your quote that classify as:
    "Fact"
    "Warrant"
    "Backing"
    "Rebuttal"
    "Conclusion"

    I'll give you hint. Pretty much everything you are writing classifies as a conclusion. The few "facts" that you like to claim are not facts at all, just personal opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    You could've tried to counter it but instead started to whine about "nothing backs up those claims", after all its you who started throwing claims without backup.
    Like what exactly?

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    The question with WF/TF definitely is whether it should be implemented at all or not.
    You misinterpreted what I wrote. Maybe try paying attention to context next time. You were talking about doing away with gear as a progression mechanism. So I said "WoW uses gear as one of its main means to advance character power. The question of WF/TF is about how that mechanism is implemented, not about whether it should be implemented."

    So, exactly as you've just said: The question with WF/TF definitely is whether it should be implemented at all or not. You were, however, talking about whether gear should be rewarded, which is a different question entirely.

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    Character power is one of the main drivers in a game that focuses solely on character progression, and when that driver is near fully decided by RNG then it just makes the system horrible.
    1) The need for Character power is driven by the content you're trying to do. Therefore that content is the driver, not the gear.
    2) I have already debunked your nonsense notion that power of your gear is near fully decided by RNG and explained why: It's not about luck, it's about statistics. When your statistical sample is big enough "luck" balances out to the point where it becomes minor background noise with only a small effect on the outcome.

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    You can have RNG alongside other means to get it, but RNG being the main or in cases the only factor just makes the system horrible. Aka the system is just horrible anyway you look at it (it really isn't that hard to comprehend).
    I will agree that if you don't bother actually applying any critical thought to what you say, then maybe it makes sense....

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    WF/TF system just isn't Regular (as you say upgrades should be),
    Again, you're making an assertion with no warrant or backing. Of course the WF/TF system ensures regular upgrades. It's a statistical process. It's the whole point of the design, to ensure that people will always be advancing their gear based on the amount and level of the content they're doing. While it may be random in terms of which bosses you get those upgrades from and which gear slots they fill, over time, your ilevel will increase. The rate of increase is proportional to how good your gear already is, so it will always be slowing down - which means that people who have so far had good luck will slow down faster allowing people with worse luck to realistically catch up.

    The RNG in the system can account for a 2-3 ilevel difference across a group of players all doing exactly the same content. But the 40 ilevel difference between a mythic group and a bunch of LFR only heroes is by design. Luck has absolutely nothing to do with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    Well this just reads as "Genocide isn't a bad thing in itself, its only how people see it". Like, really?
    Where on earth did you pull that analogy from? I am not talking about Genocide. I am talking about a computer game. I am talking about how the user (you) of a system (TF/WF) forms part of a bigger system which determines how you experience it. Therefore you can't just attribute your experience to the system without understanding how you are affecting that outcome. Obviously if the context was genocide, then it should be pretty clear that the person's suffering isn't really due to them. It's pretty obvious that putting a bullet in someone's brain is going to have the causal effect of killing them. Your bad experience with the WF/TF system however is largely a function of you have been approaching it. I can say this with confidence because other people have had positive experiences with the system.

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    If a system makes people frustrated then that is the systems fault and it should be changed (or removed).
    That depends, as I said, on the source of the frustration. Just because you're getting frustrated, doesn't mean that the system is bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    We've seen polls and polls about the subject and they've all came to same conclusion that it sucks in its current form (aka unlimited & no other way of getting upgrades)
    What polls? Representing whom exactly? If you're referring to a poll on MMO-C then the best you can conclude that the MMO-C community tends to think the system sucks. But the MMO-C community isn't representative of the WoW community at all. I am guessing that you're a mythic raider. Which means that you probably surround yourself with other mythic raiders. This is a group that represents like 1-2% of the WoW playerbase. You don't even know that your narrow perspective represents all mythic raiders, let alone the WoW population at large who are, if nothing else, by virtue of their playstyle, going have a very different perspective on a number of things.

    You need to be careful of echo chambers. If you come here and start a whine thread about TF/WF, you're going to attract almost exactly the same crowd of people almost every time, repeating the same arguments they did last time.

    So let me ask you this: Are you here to have a discussion and to try and find truth? Or are you just here seeking validation?

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    Because the game can offer more loot, if you're lucky enough.
    That's a terrible reason to keep doing content you aren't enjoying doing. That's like getting fat because you eat everything that is there to be eaten and then having the audicity to blame the food for existing and compelling you to eat yourself into oblivion. Learn to self moderate. If you've stopped enjoying your grind for gear, then stop doing it. It's that simple.

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    Simple as that, its the same reason why without WF/TF people believed BiS to be the end.
    But without WF/TF BiS was the end. With WF/TF there is no end - not really. I mean there is still a theoritical BiS, but it's not feasible to chase it. So trying to chase "the end" is just stupid.

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    If you want to use "just stop when you want" as an argument on favor for WF/TF system then I'll use the same argument in favor for no WF/TF.
    But it's not the same argument. Before WF/TF, BiS set the proverbial bar. It is entirely understandable that people felt compelled to chase that bar. You really shouldn't need me to explain why since you clearly did so. The problem though is that people were feeling compelled to chase a bar that wasn't well suited to them. Either people were feeling compelled to keep chasing even after they stopped enjoying it, or people were reaching the bar even though they still wanted to continue, but it now became pointless.

    With WF/TF the bar is gone. We each get to set our own bar. I realise that this can be a problem for people who aren't good at thinking for themselves and need someone else to tell them when to stop.

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    It is RNG's fault that I can't get upgrades when I'm doing the content, It is RNG's fault because I need those upgrade. You're not the person to say if one needs said upgrades or not unless you give the same power to me to decide that you don't need gear at all and it should be removed (or anything else less major, as in people not getting WF/TF procs for content they overgear (aka people who don't give a shit about gear and only do WQ's)).
    I am not trying to tell you how much gear you need. Everyone needs a different amount of gear. But that doesn't change the universal, logical truth that, at some point, if you grind for long enough, you will stop needing more gear. Gear is a means to an end - eg: Cutting Edge. What WF/TF does is ensure that as you're working towards that end, your gear will continue to improve until you either meet that goal, or you give up. Now it's perfectly fine if you reach that goal and then decide you're enjoying the raid still, so you continue to farm the instance. WF/TF makes sure that you will continue to be rewarded (with diminishing returns) for as long as you want to keep on farming. What it doesn't do though is compel you to keep doing so - because without BiS there is no bar which anyone needs to feel compelled to chase. Which gives you the freedom to choose, on your terms, when you want to stop.

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    You want me to play the game the way its meant to be played (aka doing content to get gear)
    That's not how the game is meant to be played. Seriously, have you even been paying attention?

    The way the game is meant to be played is that you do content you enjoy. And you keep doing that content for as long as you are enjoying doing that content. Doing that content gives you the gear need to continue progressing through that content. Now it doesn't matter what you personally get out of the content that makes you enjoy doing it, but if you're not enjoying the content, continuing to do the content is just stupid. Sorry to be so blunt, but that really is the crux of it.

    What you keep saying is that you hate WF/TF because it makes you keep doing content you hate. You keep doing the content to get better gear. But the whole point of gear, the only legitimate compelling reason to actually push yourself to get that gear, is to do content. The same content you say you hate doing and are only doing to get more gear.

    How can you not see that you're just chasing your proverbial tail. That's not the game's fault. It's yours.

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    Yeah, you really don't have any valid arguments whatsoever.
    You know what's funny reading your response here: It's like you've literally failed to understand a single one of my arguments above. No wonder they seem odd to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    Except in reality its not possible, since the largest fishes don't live in places you do hook&line fishing. Its that simple.

    Just like in WoW you shouldn't get the best item for doing a simple WQ.
    The point of an analogy isn't to keep arguing it instead of the actual argument (that is called a strawman argument). It's to convey a principle that someone just doesn't get.

    So please, feel free to argue til you're blue in the face on the realities of what is and isn't possible in sport fishing, it has bugger all to do with what should/shouldn't be possible in WoW which is, I think we can both agree, not the same thing.

    If you want an analogy for why being able to win a mythic raid quality item from a WQ, it would be the same reason as that I should be able to win a point in a tennis match against Roger Federer without the world ending. It's not going to mean I am his equal at tennis, and anyone who tried to claim as much would be widely regarded as a moron.

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    Luck has a really major effect on how much you have gear.
    No it doesn't. I have already explained why. Statistics balances out luck over time. So please stop trying to push this nonsensical, amateur fallacy. You're just embarrassing yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    Sure people who only do WQ's won't be decked in max ilvl gear but there can be a guy with majority of their gear like it
    I suppose your PoV starts to make some sense now. I mean if you genuinely believe this, then your stance against WF/TF does make sense. Your only problem though is that you're utterly wrong in this belief.

    There is no way that any guy can be equipped with majority of gear at max level just from WQs. The odds of it are astronomically small. By which I mean, even if the entire population of the world was playing WoW for a million years it still would be a trillion to one odds of it ever happening.

    But let's just accept for a second that someone does get that astronomically lucky. It happens to one person playing this game once, for a single raid tier. It changes nothing.

    Anyhow, I have a challenge for you: If you can point to the armory page of someone who has had only one trillion trillion trillionth of the luck and, from any lesser content (not just WQs, but we can include LFR, WQs Mythic Zeros) is better equipped than an average Mythic raider from an average mythic progression guild, I'll concede the argument.


    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    Even if we talk about only Mythic quality gear we can see ~9 (since azerite can't WF/TF) ilvl differences between people who did the same content, now take sockets etc. into account and their difference can be (guestimating) around 20% for doing the same content with the same class same amount of times and basically having the same items - one just happens to be lucky with TF/Sockets. Now its going to be more major if you jump down to Heroic or Normal difficulty levels because theres chances for TF.
    Bulldust. The only way such a gear disparity will exist within a group where all players doing a significant level of content have done exactly the same content is where people are funneling gear.

    In my guild the amount of gear that people have is directly proportional to how much effort they put in. The guys doing just raiding are about 7 ilevels below the guys also pushing high key M+. And the guys who have low attendance at raids, you see it in the gear. It's pretty damned obvious.
    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    You just assumed the category, and it would still be only an observation. As for asking you to learn the difference, its just me hoping you'd learn it. If you find it insulting, condescending or disrespectful then maybe its time to not take everything like its an assessment of you but rather as they are, a friendly suggestion to learn.

    Oh well, explains current generation (for the lack of better word) perfectly - just trying to find something to be offended about.
    Oh I am not offended. I am amused. What is even more amusing is that in spite of your inability to grasp a simple concept like what I am saying about your use of ad hominem, you still want to try and insuate that you're older/wiser/smarter than me.

  18. #78
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    Yes, probably just as much as I already do. It doesn't affect or bother me much.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Oh I am not offended. I am amused. What is even more amusing is that in spite of your inability to grasp a simple concept like what I am saying about your use of ad hominem, you still want to try and insuate that you're older/wiser/smarter than me.
    I mean, It's Lappee. That name should ring a bell if you happened to play anytime between Wotlk and Legion and followed the world first race.

    Not saying he is older/wiser/smarter, just saying theres a lot of experience behind the screen.

    Also im a total fanboi but that isnt the point!

  20. #80
    I totally miss havin a BIS list, today we just have that in the form of trinkets but who is going to farm the sh1t out of m+ with all those rng factors in...

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