Warbringers Jaina: trying to rewrite events of the past

[Aleksej89]

Admiral proudmore (jaina's father) saw all orcs/horde as savage animals that should be exterminated, since he expected they will attack again once they recuperate/rebuild.

Jaina in TFT believed orcs and the rest of horde can coexist with the alliance-oriented races and that they would not cause another great war or genocide.

However after all that the horde has done since War3 jaina has come to believe that her father was right and that only exterminating the horde can bring peace to azeroth.

I dont think there was any change of lore or history there.
Admiral proudmore wanted to exterminate the horde in order to prevent another great war, and now that such a great war & genocide is again happening Jaina finally agrees with her father.

[Mehrunes]

When did she say anything of the sort? From what I remember of the chain she and Lor'themar were about to come to blows until Taran Zhu stepped in. Deciding not to fight with a lesser enemy (the rest of the Horde) in the face of two greater (Lei Shen and Garrosh) ones does not equal forgiving the lesser enemy and does not preclude you from going after lesser enemies as soon as the greater enemies are dealt with.

In the very quest you're talking about?

[Beerbill Society]

I have wondered the same, but bear in mind that Jaina only had high regards for orcs because Thrall and his horde fought to protect Azeroth from Archimond (last chapter of reign of chaos and battle of hyjal in WoW).

Also, she didn't 'betray' Daelin, she just didn't help because she believed orcs could be more than just savages, she refused to slaughter them.

She later realizes that orcs and the horde are a bunch of evil savages, after the events of Theramore and Pandaria and now with Evil Queen Sylvanas.

And regret not listening to her father or facing the horde with him, I think this whole cinematic is the only saving point of this entire expasion, this is the only story that the team got right.

Show how conflicted her character is, she left Arthas at the Culling of Stratholme, the purge was against her moral code, and saw him become the Lich King and commit atrocities, she had to endure the fact that she could have somehow changed and bear this guilt with her until his death.

She did the same with her father, she was naive and believed that the orcs could be good and civilized, this lead to her leaving her father to his own.

I think that the realization to look back and see how innocent and childlike her ideals were, against the crude reality she had to endure and the pain caused to others.

This cinematic express this really well, and show how she have grow tougher over the years.

[cparle87]

In the very quest you're talking about?

I'm make it simpler then. Deciding to deal with another enemy first does not mean you can't deal with another enemy later. She's basically going, "Once Lei Shen and Garrosh are dealt with, the rest of you Horde are next."

[Zandalariprelate]

Wasn't the lore that teleportation doesn't work in Netherstorm cause its so close to the Twisting Nether? I remember we couldn't use warlock summons there once upon a time.

He does some blink moves in his fight and when he was a fel elf, he could had just run away instead of being killed by the second time

[Beerbill Society]

Hence the whole "i'm listening now, father". She believes now that her father was right in what he had intended or what not (or at least did up until the seige of Dazar'alor - seems she's now backing off again which is confusing writing imo).

That's funny because, this kind of behavior is becoming consistent of her, she is either full rage mode or mercy for the green people.

This happened in Pandaria, in Island of Thunder, after she went full kill blood elfs with her own hands to not hating elfs and trucing to SoO where she wants to dismantle the Horde.

This could be somewhat of a conflicted character, were she is trying to be tough shit but still has a good heart, but the way this happen just looks like inconsistent writing.

[huth]

Number 1 example. All mass effect decisions.

Example of what?

[cparle87]

He does some blink moves in his fight and when he was a fel elf, he could had just run away instead of being killed by the second time

When we fought him the second time he was a dessicated corpse revived with a fel crystal jammed into his chest, and ingame and in lore much weaker than he was the first time we faced him. I always assumed he simply lost/was too weak to teleport the second time.

[huth]

When we fought him the second time he was a dessicated corpse revived with a fel crystal jammed into his chest, and ingame and in lore much weaker than he was the first time we faced him. I always assumed he simply lost/was too weak to teleport the second time.

Could also have been a revenge before reason situation.

[Kaver]

Nah, she was good girl who was misguided by bad orcs who exploited her good will. But also her father deserved that, so its double ok.

Stop acting like a brat and grow up.

[VladlTutushkin]

She's been Warcraft's biggest villain for over a decade..

Any proofs of that statement?

- - - Updated - - -

I mean we can ponder if someone that glares at you ominously after killing an allied monarch is villain to your side, but it would be futile.

Well if only we take tha singular episode in a complete and utter vacuum, almost like that exists in your cranium then maybe she IS a villain.

[Zandalariprelate]

When we fought him the second time he was a dessicated corpse revived with a fel crystal jammed into his chest, and ingame and in lore much weaker than he was the first time we faced him. I always assumed he simply lost/was too weak to teleport the second time.

He still pull the gravity trick and does good damage with fel magic.

[Friendlyimmolation]

When we fought him the second time he was a dessicated corpse revived with a fel crystal jammed into his chest, and ingame and in lore much weaker than he was the first time we faced him. I always assumed he simply lost/was too weak to teleport the second time.

Chronicle states he was even stronger in mgt than he was in tk.

[Verdugo]

Well if only we take tha singular episode in a complete and utter vacuum, almost like that exists in your cranium then maybe she IS a villain.

Horde-side we are not shown anything that is supposed to redeem her other than Baine helping her brother, and if you find that to be sympathetic, well...

[VladlTutushkin]

Horde-side we are not shown anything that is supposed to redeem her other than Baine helping her brother, and if you find that to be sympathetic, well...

Well if you play Alliance too you can see that. Plus i think she deserves some “credit” for helping Horde on many occasions before, starting with literally HELPING TO KILL HER OWN FATHER.

[Verdugo]

Well if you play Alliance too you can see that.

Problem is, I have absolutely no interest in playing the Alliance that is filled with characters like Anduin.

[VladlTutushkin]

Problem is, I have absolutely no interest in playing the Alliance that is filled with characters like Anduin.

Trust me neither do i. But playing Horde filled with characters like Nathanos or Sylvanas is even more disgusting to me.

[Mehrunes]

Well if you play Alliance too you can see that. Plus i think she deserves some “credit” for helping Horde on many occasions before, starting with literally HELPING TO KILL HER OWN FATHER.

She literally did not help to kill her own father. Even the Warbringers video that's the topic here makes it clear that Jaina stood aside. That's her not helping either side. And Jaina doing nothing while Daelin's forces and the Horde killed each other does not give her a life-long IOU card from the Horde. Theramore spearheaded Alliance offensive on Kalimdor in Cataclysm and Jaina has been nothing but hostile to the Horde since then. And she's treated by the Horde accordingly.

[VladlTutushkin]

She literally did not help to kill her own father. Even the Warbringers video that's the topic here makes it clear that Jaina stood aside. That's her not helping either side. And Jaina doing nothing while Daelin's forces and the Horde killed each other does not give her a life-long IOU card from the Horde. Theramore spearheaded Alliance offensive on Kalimdor in Cataclysm and Jaina has been nothing but hostile to the Horde since then. And she's treated by the Horde accordingly.

She teleported Thrall's army into his base after Thrall realised that they cant cross the water span. Plus she sponsored Baine's retaking of the Thunderbluff and "Theramore spearheading offensive" happened after Garrosh rolled over the Ashenvale and deslared that he will "clain whole Kalimdore for the Horde". So it was self defense.

[therealbowser]

It led to what now?

Genocide: noun; the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.

How is it a betrayal when Theramore being attacked was a natural and logical consequence of Jaina participating in the Alliance-Horde war against the Horde throughout Cata, with Alliance starting that war?

Theramore had always sought peace. Alliance moved through Theramore but it never fought directly. The Horde defeating and taking over Theramore would be one thing, dropping a mana bomb and killing every man, woman, and child on the island is a little bit different.

"What's a war crime?" I'm hoping I don't hear "B-but, Sylvanas can't commit war crimes! They don't exist..."

Either way, it felt like a betrayal to her because Thrall made Garrosh warchief when he knew Garrosh was not ready for the role; that he was an extremely aggressive warmonger. I noticed that you didn't notice that I used the word 'felt', nor did you acknowledge that I said that she felt like she betrayed him herself. This is because she aided the Horde in the name of peace despite the fact that it led to her father--whom she loved dearly--being killed in the process. She literally aided the Horde against the Alliance, something that Garrosh didn't seem to care about very much. "Me hate humans, me bomb island. Much orc honor."

Whether Thrall betrayed Jaina is debatable, but in short, since you're pushing the argument, I'd definitely lean towards "yes", he did. But I doubt he expected it was going to lead to the genocide of Theramore.

You're speculating here and presenting it as fact, while ignoring what we know about Sylvanas and her plans. Had Sylvanas succeeded in Stormheim, she no longer would have a reason to fight the Alliance. She'd have immortal Forsaken and immortal herself. She wouldn't need to kill humans to replenish her numbers at that point. And the Alliance would no longer be a threat to her. So what motivation would she have to attack them? The lulz? Also, how would capturing Eyir affect the Valarjar in any way? And the Alliance doesn't get to justify Rogers retroactively. She attacked the Horde just because they were Horde. It had nothing to do with Helya, because the Alliance at the time of the attack didn't know neither who Helya was nor what Sylvanas was after.

First I want to address this:

Had Sylvanas succeeded in Stormheim, she no longer would have a reason to fight the Alliance.

Are you really so naive to think that Sylvanas is a peace loving character that was not planning to use her newfound power to destroy the Alliance? Do you genuinely think it is in her nature to just let another world power exist when it could potentially be a risk to her precious 'immortality'? I can't help but laugh at the fact you are telling me this:

You're speculating here and presenting it as fact

... and then posting such far-fetched speculation as this.

But let's not stop there. The most revered and noble of the Val'kyr, the very source of how the stormforged of Valar'jar are brought up... do you seriously think that Eyir being captured and corrupted by Sylvanas would have no effect on them? That this wouldn't drive them to war with the Horde, even over the Legion itself?

As for Rogers, she gets full justification. You don't get to ignore the fact that the Horde left the Alliance to die. Even if it was the right call, it felt like the worst type of betrayal to them... because it was. It led to King Varian dying in the worst way possible. Are they to just overlook this and become bosom buddies with Sylvanas? They almost certainly suspected she was up to no good in Stormheim, and lo and behold, she had dark and sinister plans there.

I'm guessing that my entire argument is somehow moot, however, because "Sylvanas can do no wrong." She had to do it. They made her do it. She's just looking out for her people, the noble kind leader that she is, etc, etc. This thread wasn't even about Sylvanas but I mean since I dared to make a comment that implied Sylvanas wasn't good and noble I guess I walked into this. Obviously Jaina is the real villain here.