kiro about rasthakan dead

[Rozz]

WHo's fault is it that they used their homes to transport the supplies? It ain't the Alliance's fault.

It's messed up, yeah, but let's be honest here, either the Vulpera knew what they were getting into when they accepted the contract to transport supplies for one of two factions involved in an ongoing war, or they were lied to by whoever hired them.

But we can't pretend the Vulpera chose the Horde over the Alliance in a typical sense. It's not like they had much a choice. They live in a desert, are a slave race, and the closest thing they have to a steady flow of resources/protection are from working under the Zandalari/Horde. They're also willing to work with anyone whether that be Sethrak, criminal Trolls, or foreign races. Had the Alliance had more of a presence or offered more money, they'd likely turn coat immediately. There is no deep loyalty, just convenience and survival.

It'd be like faulting the Furbolgs for being associated with NEs. They can't help that they're the nearest potential ally to rely on.

[Aucald]

Boy, you sure want to talk about whataboutism and then spew this shit over the forum. the Tortollans are 100% NEUTRAL, as in, they supply anyone, not just the Horde, or the Alliance. You know what the Vulpera did? They supplied the Horde and ONLY the Horde, as in, they contracted themselves as agents of the Horde for a set period of time, are being compensated for their work and the running of supplies for the Horde only, and are officially acting as allies until further notice of contractual termination. Tortollans have no contract of such, they don't care who they trade with so long as it benefits them, and as such are not hostile entities the Alliance has justification in attacking.

It's a pretty adjacent scenario if you ask me. The Tortollan aid the Zandalari as well as the Horde (Rokhan and his Shadow Hunter proxies) in Nazmir with the Blood Troll threat, providing material and martial support and ultimately securing Zuldazar for the Zandalari (and by extension the Horde). This is similar to the role the Vulpera play in Vol'dun, although the Vulpera are probably more allied with the Horde given the Horde's Spearker/Champion's major role in helping free them from servitude to the Faithless Sethrak. The Vulpera also have no official treaties or ties to the Horde - fundamentally they're a neutral force, not allied with the Horde beyond a willingness to act as couriers.

And I don't know about you, but I didn't see houses being burnt down, unless you count their caravan's which were literally carting enemy supplies around with them, that sounds like a personal issue if the Vulpera are literally using their houses as their place of work to carry out wartime logistics for an enemy power.

The Vulpera are an itinerant race living in a wasteland - their caravans *are* their abodes. This is a very semantic quibble that doesn't do much to mask the harm done to the people. It would be the same if the Alliance decided to burn down a Vulperan caravan because they were providing temporary shelter to a Horde soldier. This is not a good thing no matter how one tries to spin it.

The geneva convention does not prevent non-hostile parties aiding a hostile power from being attacked, only that they be detained as peacefully and non-discriminatorily as possible after actions and hostilities have been ceased in the region pertaining to them. If the Hungarians are supplying weapons and other supplies to the Nazi's out of their houses and try to fight back, they are going to get shot until they are subdued. The Vulpera are not being harmed in the Assault scenario either, they are being attacked if they attack back, otherwise, they are being scared off and detained where possible.

Burning down their houses and holding them prisoner in place in an active war-zone aren't what I would say are "peaceful" or "non-discriminatory" acts. I don't think Vol'dun looks good for the Alliance at all, no matter how one tries to spin it. I also think this kind of "tit for tat" tallying of Alliance vs. Horde is a bad look for everyone - no one is blameless in all this, and no one has their hands free of blood. I wouldn't argue that the Horde started this (at least the most recent version of the conflict), but it has its own momentum now, and terrible things have now been done by all sides of the struggle.

- - - Updated - - -

At least on Alliance side, you're explicitly ordered to scare the Vulpera away rather than attack them, and they weren't just contracted as logistics, but as guards as well. The Alliance troops aren't attacking harmless civilians there.

The Alliance isn't going out of their way to attack the Vulpera specificially. In fact, they're actually taking steps to avoid it.

The Zandalar don't have any sovereignity over Vol'dun at the time either - in fact, being sent there is considered exile, meaning they don't consider it part of their land. The only ones with permanent settlements are the Sethrak, and they're willingly accepting(or hostile to, depending) the Alliance as well as the Horde and stay neutral in the conflict between the two.

The Alliance Champion is given that order, but it certainly doesn't seem to be followed by the 7th Legion NPC's throughout the zone. And of course the Vulpera are guarding their caravans - Vol'dun is no pleasure garden, and they face more possible enemies than just the Alliance in the area. Zandalar claims Vol'dun as its own, though; and General Jakrazet (despite being a traitor to Rastakhan) is the nominal authority of the area itself. Vol'dun is very much a part of Zandalar's sovereign territory.

- - - Updated - - -

WHo's fault is it that they used their homes to transport the supplies? It ain't the Alliance's fault.

It's messed up, yeah, but let's be honest here, either the Vulpera knew what they were getting into when they accepted the contract to transport supplies for one of two factions involved in an ongoing war, or they were lied to by whoever hired them.

Perhaps, but that doesn't make this any better, either. The Vulpera have little to no knowledge of the Alliance or the Horde, either; they're just thankful to the Horde Champion for freeing them from the Sethrak and aiding their caravans across Vol'dun.

They aren't supplying any combat forces to the Horde, they ARE however sheltering them and allowing them to take military action against the Alliance while using their capital city as a military base.

That's called support.

I don't disagree, but I also don't think that makes them "fair game" to be eradicated in this conflict. Spreading the conflict to "any race that supports our enemy whatsoever" is pretty much a recipe for a never-ending war of atrocities that will eventually leave everyone dead as door-nails.

[Schattenlied]

I don't disagree, but I also don't think that makes them "fair game" to be eradicated in this conflict. Spreading the conflict to "any race that supports our enemy whatsoever" is pretty much a recipe for a never-ending war of atrocities that will eventually leave everyone dead as door-nails.

Again, the Alliance wanted the Zandalari to surrender, killing Rastakhan was not how they wanted things to go down.

And what else were they supposed to do, let them keep sheltering the Horde while the Horde conducts military ops under their protection?

[Aucald]

Again, the Alliance wanted the Zandalari to surrender, killing Rastakhan was not how they wanted things to go down.

And what else were they supposed to do, let them keep sheltering the Horde while the Horde conducts military ops under their protection?

I'm referring to the Vulpera, not the Zandalari (that is a different matter entirely). The Horde is actively courting the Zandalari for an important military/naval asset, so the Alliance's goal to undermine this is understandable, including the unfortunate death of Rastakhan. The Vulpera aren't an important military asset for the Horde, and while they're being used to facilitate the movement of logistics they're not necessary, either; the Horde could do this on its own if it needed to. The Horde also isn't conducting any military ops in Vol'dun - it actually has no permanent bases in Vol'dun because Vol'dun has no strategic importance to the Horde, it is only important to the Alliance as a staging ground to attack the Zandalari.

[Zandalariprelate]

But we can't pretend the Vulpera chose the Horde over the Alliance in a typical sense. It's not like they had much a choice. They live in a desert, are a slave race, and the closest thing they have to a steady flow of resources/protection are from working under the Zandalari/Horde. They're also willing to work with anyone whether that be Sethrak, criminal Trolls, or foreign races. Had the Alliance had more of a presence or offered more money, they'd likely turn coat immediately. There is no deep loyalty, just convenience and survival.

It'd be like faulting the Furbolgs for being associated with NEs. They can't help that they're the nearest potential ally to rely on.

This is the best answer, so far the whole cycle of hatred of wow is silly because people want to attack the allies rather than the guy or group that did some nasty shit, the forsakens wants some revenge with the humans, they attack the nelves and extend very thin like the idiots they are(no wonder why Arthas destroyed lordaeron in just a few days), the humans wants to defeat the horde and goes to attack the zandalaris for their fleet only to not push the adventage they bought, why aren't even trying if they don't want to win the war or finish it quickly.

This is the reason I miss Arthas and Illidan from WC3 because those guys like Trunks in dbz aren't fooling around and finish the job quickly and with efficient

[Cathululock]

Hope Kiro becomes the Volundai leader of the Horde instead of Nisha so we have a male Horde allied race leader

it's 2019. all men are toxic.

[RoKPaNda]

Nice. We need more small allied races.

it's 2019. all men are toxic.

Is this a meme or is this legit false victimhood? Nobody thinks all men are toxic. Toxic masculinity doesn't mean any masculinity.

[Cathululock]

Nice. We need more small allied races.



Is this a meme or is this legit false victimhood? Nobody thinks all men are toxic. Toxic masculinity doesn't mean any masculinity.

I know what you mean by it. I, and everyone else who can think for themselves, think it's ridiculous.

Infracted.

[Zandalariprelate]

Nice. We need more small allied races.

I like the vulperas but I fear they will bring the wrong people in the horde, the furries and probably the gnomes will get some cheap imitation of Robocop which isn't a good trade because the next horde race needs to be bad for the sake of parity

[Rozz]

This is the best answer, so far the whole cycle of hatred of wow is silly because people want to attack the allies rather than the guy or group that did some nasty shit, the forsakens wants some revenge with the humans, they attack the nelves and extend very thin like the idiots they are(no wonder why Arthas destroyed lordaeron in just a few days), the humans wants to defeat the horde and goes to attack the zandalaris for their fleet only to not push the adventage they bought, why aren't even trying if they don't want to win the war or finish it quickly.

This is the reason I miss Arthas and Illidan from WC3 because those guys like Trunks in dbz aren't fooling around and finish the job quickly and with efficient

You are right about that. The war is awkward and everyone would do themselves a favor to fight directly and smartly.

[vilememory]

To me it still seem so odd how the Zandalari have been whitewashed. Shouldn't the Vulpera not really give a shit about the Zandalari? Although I'll admit I skipped through voldun because I couldn't tell what was the main story and what was side quest. So I just assumed everything was a side quest.

Well the Zandalari have helped out the Vulpera dealing with the Sethrak Faithless, and some of the Sethrak do worship a Loa. So the connection is there, but this is Blizzard we are talking about. The fans have to make the connections until Blizzard retcons stuff and makes other things canon. Then they change their minds down the road or just kind of forget all together. But, and I'm actually being serious here. I think this new relationship is thanks mostly to Princess Talanji, with the aid that the Vulpera and Sethrak gave to help her people she is looking to help them out as well. I can easily see Talanji saying something like 'These various races came together in the time of the Zandalari's peoples time of need and helped us, so I will do all that I can to help them as well.' Even Gonk asks her who she is going to be Queen for, is it just the trolls but all the races of Zandalar? That one is part of an upcoming quest next patch.

[Rozz]

Well the Zandalari have helped out the Vulpera dealing with the Sethrak Faithless, and some of the Sethrak do worship a Loa. So the connection is there, but this is Blizzard we are talking about. The fans have to make the connections until Blizzard retcons stuff and makes other things canon. Then they change their minds down the road or just kind of forget all together. But, and I'm actually being serious here. I think this new relationship is thanks mostly to Princess Talanji, with the aid that the Vulpera and Sethrak gave to help her people she is looking to help them out as well. I can easily see Talanji saying something like 'These various races came together in the time of the Zandalari's peoples time of need and helped us, so I will do all that I can to help them as well.' Even Gonk asks her who she is going to be Queen for, is it just the trolls but all the races of Zandalar? That one is part of an upcoming quest next patch.

I sure hope she does. She has gone out of her way to develop bonds with every race that has aided her to reclaim her empire. It'd be a fitting equivalent to Jaina becoming Lord Admiral to all the houses of Kul'Tiras.

[Lothaeryn]

It's a pretty adjacent scenario if you ask me. The Tortollan aid the Zandalari as well as the Horde (Rokhan and his Shadow Hunter proxies) in Nazmir with the Blood Troll threat, providing material and martial support and ultimately securing Zuldazar for the Zandalari (and by extension the Horde). This is similar to the role the Vulpera play in Vol'dun, although the Vulpera are probably more allied with the Horde given the Horde's Spearker/Champion's major role in helping free them from servitude to the Faithless Sethrak. The Vulpera also have no official treaties or ties to the Horde - fundamentally they're a neutral force, not allied with the Horde beyond a willingness to act as couriers.

Shifting goalposts and repeating the same argument again does not give credence to your argument, you've literally derided others for "whataboutism" in this very thread and then continue to spew it yourself, something does not add up here in moral equivalency.

The tortollans could give two fucks about who they choose to help in this conflict, the Horde were not in Nazmir against the Alliance directly in that scenario, they were simply in need of aid, and the Tortollans obliged, after getting aid to put Torga's spirit to rest.

In another case, the Tortollans help the Alliance as well, getting rid of goblins and naga off the coast of Stormsong after they ruin the coastline. If we were actually applying logic here, that means they are still neutral, as they aided both parties without any strings attached.

The same cannot be said of the Vulpera, who align themselves with the Horde out of a sense of debt for freeing them, and having no alternative. That doesn't mean they aren't free of being targeted for aiding them against their enemies, in fact it paints them as really easy targets for doing so.

The Vulpera are an itinerant race living in a wasteland - their caravans *are* their abodes. This is a very semantic quibble that doesn't do much to mask the harm done to the people. It would be the same if the Alliance decided to burn down a Vulperan caravan because they were providing temporary shelter to a Horde soldier. This is not a good thing no matter how one tries to spin it.

And, again, that is on them, they could have sandstone abodes in the mountainside if they had chosen to do so, that does not mean the Alliance went out of their way to deliberately destroy the only homes they have. Had the vulpera actual abodes like any other race, the Alliance wouldn't have even bothered making them a target, just the supply caravans like they already did.

The Alliance targeted mercenary caravans supplying logistics to their literal enemy, whether or not the mercenary party is allied with the Horde 100%, or whether or not they used their homes as their logistics resource is also irrelevant, as that was the Vulpera's prerogative to do so. They ultimately chose to put their homes at risk without thinking of the consequences, the Alliance cannot be held blame for any of the Vulpera's choices and the actions that resulted from it, only the actions they(the Alliance) took, which is still more merciful and humane than the Horde has ever been in similar scenarios.

Burning down their houses and holding them prisoner in place in an active war-zone aren't what I would say are "peaceful" or "non-discriminatory" acts. I don't think Vol'dun looks good for the Alliance at all, no matter how one tries to spin it.

Burning down logistical targets for your enemy while active in a combat zone (read: they are in a combat zone in hostile territory, with VERY limited time to conduct operations to achieve their goal) is one of those hard decisions that isn't acceptable during peacetime, but is the only pragmatic solution to preventing your enemy from acquiring their resources while operating in hostile territory. And holding mercenaries as prisoners of War until said conflict is over and doing as much as possible to not kill them is far more humane than you are giving credit for. At this point you're going way far an above to try and paint the Alliance as monsters for doing a simple task and doing as much as possible to avoid casualties of a third party actively working against them.

I also think this kind of "tit for tat" tallying of Alliance vs. Horde is a bad look for everyone - no one is blameless in all this, and no one has their hands free of blood. I wouldn't argue that the Horde started this (at least the most recent version of the conflict), but it has its own momentum now, and terrible things have now been done by all sides of the struggle.

Congratulations, you just explained the whole damn plot of BFA, do you want a cookie for it? The whole point of the expansion is to paint both sides as morally questionable, yet somehow the Alliance still hasn't shown any real teeth to be called monsters for their actions in this expansion just yet. Even the most questionable of scenarios (the Vol'Dun assault) easily justifies their actions by pointing out everything else the Horde has done prior to the Alliance taking said action. Do you really not realize this whole discussion was the direct intention of this shoddy level of storytelling? Character assassination and contrived storyboards that barely fit the mold of either faction's current iteration and philosophy, only to prod one last "hurrah" of the AvH conflict.

The Alliance Champion is given that order, but it certainly doesn't seem to be followed by the 7th Legion NPC's throughout the zone. And of course the Vulpera are guarding their caravans - Vol'dun is no pleasure garden, and they face more possible enemies than just the Alliance in the area. Zandalar claims Vol'dun as its own, though; and General Jakrazet (despite being a traitor to Rastakhan) is the nominal authority of the area itself. Vol'dun is very much a part of Zandalar's sovereign territory.

Only by decree, in actuality, the Zandlari barely even have a presence there, unless you count the numerous exiles and prisoners sent to die there for their crimes against the Empire, this is like trying to say England had control of all Australia when the only presence they had is a single outpost at best.

As for the 7th Legion, they weren't killing any of the vulpera unless they were attacked, just burning the supplies pertaining to the Horde, that sadly meant they had to burn down the caravans to do so; whether or not the 7th Legion had any ill will against the Vulpera helping the Horde is another story, and one that is never addressed so we cannot discuss it in good faith.

Perhaps, but that doesn't make this any better, either. The Vulpera have little to no knowledge of the Alliance or the Horde, either; they're just thankful to the Horde Champion for freeing them from the Sethrak and aiding their caravans across Vol'dun.

Whether or not the Vulpera had knowledge of the Alliance's intent is irrelevant, they knew the Alliance were enemies of the Horde, understood that they were aiding the Horde against said group, and willingly ran logistics for them as mercenaries. Being targeted for doing so is a natural result for aiding one side in a time of war. I would not hesitate to defend this position if the reverse was true and the Vulpera aided the Alliance and forwent aiding the Horde while running logistics for the Alliance.

I don't disagree, but I also don't think that makes them "fair game" to be eradicated in this conflict. Spreading the conflict to "any race that supports our enemy whatsoever" is pretty much a recipe for a never-ending war of atrocities that will eventually leave everyone dead as door-nails.

The Zandalari harbored the Horde and allowed them to go on hostile operations against a foreign power on their shores, gave them food and shelter during this time of war and also showed hostility to the Horde's enemies without direct provocation. If that isn't aiding an enemy during wartime you're definitely playing naive to support your own agenda, which is way more disingenuous than your argument deserves to be.

[Aucald]

Shifting goalposts and repeating the same argument again does not give credence to your argument, you've literally derided others for "whataboutism" in this very thread and then continue to spew it yourself, something does not add up here in moral equivalency.

Except my example was neither shifting goalposts nor whataboutism - it'd an adjacent example with similar circumstances in a nearby region in the same factional relationship. The original claim was that a bad act on the Alliance's part somehow made a similar Horde act "good" somehow (albeit sarcastically crouched). That's not the same kind of example of all.

The tortollans could give two fucks about who they choose to help in this conflict, the Horde were not in Nazmir against the Alliance directly in that scenario, they were simply in need of aid, and the Tortollans obliged, after getting aid to put Torga's spirit to rest.

Yet by their actions they still aid both the Zandalari and the Horde in acts that strengthen the Horde's position. That's pretty much what the Vulpera do in Vol'dun as well. If the Alliance were fighting the Horde in Nazmir you'd have exactly the same set of circumstances (hence why it is adjacent).

In another case, the Tortollans help the Alliance as well, getting rid of goblins and naga off the coast of Stormsong after they ruin the coastline. If we were actually applying logic here, that means they are still neutral, as they aided both parties without any strings attached.

Helping both sides isn't what makes a party neutral. The Tortollan and Vulpera are neutral because they have no formal ties to either faction, and the Tortollan are far more involved with the Horde than the Alliance.

The same cannot be said of the Vulpera, who align themselves with the Horde out of a sense of debt for freeing them, and having no alternative. That doesn't mean they aren't free of being targeted for aiding them against their enemies, in fact it paints them as really easy targets for doing so.

Oh, I agree - they are *really* easy targets. That's not a good thing, though.

And, again, that is on them, they could have sandstone abodes in the mountainside if they had chosen to do so, that does not mean the Alliance went out of their way to deliberately destroy the only homes they have. Had the vulpera actual abodes like any other race, the Alliance wouldn't have even bothered making them a target, just the supply caravans like they already did.

That sounds quite a lot like the slogan of an oppressor, if you ask me. "It's not the natives' fault they can't stand against us, so it isn't on us when we decimate them." While true, this is pretty far from a moral stand in and of itself.

The Alliance targeted mercenary caravans supplying logistics to their literal enemy, whether or not the mercenary party is allied with the Horde 100%, or whether or not they used their homes as their logistics resource is also irrelevant, as that was the Vulpera's prerogative to do so. They ultimately chose to put their homes at risk without thinking of the consequences, the Alliance cannot be held blame for any of the Vulpera's choices and the actions that resulted from it, only the actions they(the Alliance) took, which is still more merciful and humane than the Horde has ever been in similar scenarios.

If the Alliance push the Vulpera as a whole into the arms of the Horde (as they appear to have done by Kiro's words at Rastakhan's funeral) then it is going to be their problem, and their fault. The Vulpera would certainly be in the right to do so, as well. I don't disagree that the Horde has done despicable things as well, but that neither lessens nor negates the transgressions of the Alliance - which is the essential substance of what I've been saying.

Burning down logistical targets for your enemy while active in a combat zone (read: they are in a combat zone in hostile territory, with VERY limited time to conduct operations to achieve their goal) is one of those hard decisions that isn't acceptable during peacetime, but is the only pragmatic solution to preventing your enemy from acquiring their resources while operating in hostile territory. And holding mercenaries as prisoners of War until said conflict is over and doing as much as possible to not kill them is far more humane than you are giving credit for. At this point you're going way far an above to try and paint the Alliance as monsters for doing a simple task and doing as much as possible to avoid casualties of a third party actively working against them.

I never said they were "monsters," I simply said their actions in Vol'dun were immoral and not in keeping with the Alliance's typical high-road ethos. There's quite a distance between monsterdom and immorality, and from my perspective you just seem to be unwilling or unable to accept that the Alliance's actions could be criticized.

Congratulations, you just explained the whole damn plot of BFA, do you want a cookie for it? The whole point of the expansion is to paint both sides as morally questionable, yet somehow the Alliance still hasn't shown any real teeth to be called monsters for their actions in this expansion just yet. Even the most questionable of scenarios (the Vol'Dun assault) easily justifies their actions by pointing out everything else the Horde has done prior to the Alliance taking said action. Do you really not realize this whole discussion was the direct intention of this shoddy level of storytelling? Character assassination and contrived storyboards that barely fit the mold of either faction's current iteration and philosophy, only to prod one last "hurrah" of the AvH conflict.

I am not quite sure you understood what I was saying, or the substance of my line of argument. I was referring to the playerbase itself by "tit for tat tallying of Alliance vs. Horde," not the in-game factions themselves. Partisans on both the Horde and Alliance side seem unable to accept that their faction could ever do wrong, and I disagree with those notions completely. I don't want to drag this into the entirely external realm of "bad writing" as it is neither here nor there considering we're debating a specific element of the ongoing story and not the entirety of it. The point is that Vol'dun is a case where the Alliance is not showing its best face - you can certainly disagree with me on that, but you're going to have to back up that argument accordingly as opposed to dragging it out of context.

Only by decree, in actuality, the Zandlari barely even have a presence there, unless you count the numerous exiles and prisoners sent to die there for their crimes against the Empire, this is like trying to say England had control of all Australia when the only presence they had is a single outpost at best.

The Zandalari once had a massive presence there, as indicated by the numerous structures now sinking into the dunes. Following the conflict with Mythrax the region was reduced to wasteland and the Zandalari largely withdrew - but it is still their land. Your argument is like saying Stormwind doesn't own Westfall anymore because their forces withdrew from it, but it's still their land.

As for the 7th Legion, they weren't killing any of the vulpera unless they were attacked, just burning the supplies pertaining to the Horde, that sadly meant they had to burn down the caravans to do so; whether or not the 7th Legion had any ill will against the Vulpera helping the Horde is another story, and one that is never addressed so we cannot discuss it in good faith.

They fight and kill Vulpera as they burn the caravans - the Vulpera are defending their homes and the 7th Legion are "forced" to cut them down as a matter of course, but what do you expect the Vulpera to do against a foreign aggressor attacking their homes in their own homeland? Sure, the Vulpera could just stand aside and watch their homes and livelihoods go up in flames, but that's kind of a rash expectation to have.

Whether or not the Vulpera had knowledge of the Alliance's intent is irrelevant, they knew the Alliance were enemies of the Horde, understood that they were aiding the Horde against said group, and willingly ran logistics for them as mercenaries. Being targeted for doing so is a natural result for aiding one side in a time of war. I would not hesitate to defend this position if the reverse was true and the Vulpera aided the Alliance and forwent aiding the Horde while running logistics for the Alliance.

Did they? You're assuming quite a lot from a knot of scavenger natives of a benighted wasteland - their day-to-day lives don't require knowledge of the complex political histories of the Alliance and Horde, and no one to my knowledge has sat down with the Vulpera leadership (assuming such a thing formally exists) to explain their role and expectations in the conflict as unofficial couriers for the Horde. The 7th Legion attacks on the Vulpera are a step up from the widely-mocked "Purge Squad" of the PTR, but not by a whole lot if you ask me.

The Zandalari harbored the Horde and allowed them to go on hostile operations against a foreign power on their shores, gave them food and shelter during this time of war and also showed hostility to the Horde's enemies without direct provocation. If that isn't aiding an enemy during wartime you're definitely playing naive to support your own agenda, which is way more disingenuous than your argument deserves to be.

The Zandalari are an entirely different story, as I've already said many times above - the Alliance opposition to the Zandalari is completely justified, as is the Horde opposition to the Kul Tirans.

[Whitedragon]

I love how characters in game are saying that killing Rastakhan is going too far but somehow killing thousands of innocents while burning an entire city isn’t going too far. I haven’t really been too interested in the story outside of the old god stuff because this shit is honestly ridiculous. Sylvanas kills thousands of innocents while burning a city in an attempt to kill a world renowned Druidic leader because he’s alliance which ignites a ridiculous faction war and it’s all good but the alliance kills Rastakhan whose daughter has been working with the horde after the war has been started and yet that’s somehow too far?

Meanwhile the horde also sacked a village in stormsong valley and killed even more innocents (and military) prior to this which is also completely fine and not too far? The writing for the faction war is hilariously bad at best but at least we get old god stuff soon.

Hell they cant even say that they where personally removed from the war befor that point... Before the raid even opened up, we see Zandalar Soldiers, ballista, and Battle dinos, attacking kultiris directly during the Hordes assaults of Tiragarde sound...

[Mayia]

Hope Kiro becomes the Volundai leader of the Horde instead of Nisha so we have a male Horde allied race leader

how can you tell their gender they have no dangle or inny bits, and nobody checked lol
If we get a male furry i don't think it counts, next allied race can be a boy leader, Hey if Zandalari were an allied race at the start of the expansion the leader would've been Rastakhan. so.......


Oh jesus the debate for which faction should get the furries is quite epic, if you can write in so much detail about this topic i really hope both of you are able to rp as a retarded cat asap. :P

[Feanoro]

Oh jesus the debate for which faction should get the furries is quite epic

Horde should have them, I insist, if only to sit back and enjoy the endless shit-flinging infighting.

[FelPlague]

The ultimate furry pedo shit I wish won't come as AR. It is just disgusting.

Yet when it was cows, fish, frogs, turtles, walrus, dogs, wolves, yaks, pandas, hyena, bears, lizards, snakes, and many others it was fine

but fucking foxes!?

also how is it pedo? I feel you are just using your trigger words.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh jesus the debate for which faction should get the furries is quite epic, if you can write in so much detail about this topic i really hope both of you are able to rp as a retarded cat asap. :P

Yeah fucking furries.
what faction should they go on?
the cow furry faction
or the dog furry faction
both have panda furries so..

- - - Updated - - -

One of my fav parts of BFA is people pretending Rastakhan was somehow innocent and didn't get what was coming to him

yeah... "They attacked the city... AND KILLED THE KING HOW DARE THEY!"
yeah.. I mean the horde tried to nuke the ENTIRE alliances leadership...

- - - Updated - - -

Which is funny, because i remember that it wasn't a case for the horrid betrayal of theramore. Guess its ok when alliance does that.

i dont think literally fucking anyone says "the attack on theramore was unjust!"
its more of the "NUKING CIVILIANS AND SOLDIERS THEN CAPTURING CIVILIANS AND TORTURING THEM" is the bad part..

the alliance did not go to zandalar, nuke the place, slaughter and capture civilians to then torture and experiment on.

[Dr Assbandit]

I didn't say it was - that is pretty much "whataboutism" incarnate, really. Nothing about the Alliance's immoral acts in Vol'dun gives legitimacy to the atrocities committed by the Horde in Stormsong Valley, but they also have nothing at all to do with Vol'dun.

Except for it's evident that Anduin doesn't know about the "purge squad" and he even gave specific orders not to kill Rastakhan until they weren't left with a choice, whereas the events of Brennadam was done with Sylvanas's complete blessing.

[Ramz]

Nice. We need more small allied races.



Is this a meme or is this legit false victimhood? Nobody thinks all men are toxic. Toxic masculinity doesn't mean any masculinity.

There is no such a thing as toxic masculinity, people are either toxic or not, regardless of gender.

It's a buzzword made up by the likes that teach about "gender studies". One of the most worthless and pointless studies ever made up.