Tanking and You.

[Mulled]

The bear goes Swipe, Swipe, Swipe. The bear goes Swipe, Swipe, Swipe.

truth, have not tanked on a bear myself but in dungeons they are by far the best tank at lower gear levels, a warrior with full feedback damage (drillboror disk/engi shield,ungoro buff, imp buff / thorns rag trinket etc etc, the aoe threat of warriors will go up later but man druids are so good at low/pre raid dungeons, raids they hold a 3rd tank spot and do well.

[Thorbalt]

So you worry with the current state of WoW that people may forget themselves in WoW: Classic.

Do you think people may need to be reminded?

No you cannot mass pull the whole dungeon
You have to CC (most times)
Pull mobs, don't charge in.
No, the hunter cannot pull.
Wait for threat, control your dps.
Dps management during fights, don't over aggro.
Get that threat meter addon

I don't think everyone is stupid here. I know most of you already know this. But let's not kid ourselves, we will most likely end up in a group that has been so spoiled by todays WoW that either they totally forgot these things or just didn't know.

For most of our experiences this summer I do feel the most exciting thing is that for most people it will be like learning and learning again :P

you forgot "all rogues must spec into improved sap"

[faithbane]

Like when?

EDIT: Apart from Flame imps in MC.

When we were progressing through MC and BWL, we pretty much made the hunter pull almost every singe pack just because how large the agro range of the mobs were. It was always safer for a hunter to do a ranged pull.

Specifically the room where baron is patting in MC and the tight rooms with dragon packs in BWL, we usually had the raid waiting in the previous room and hunter used ranged or pet pull. It was tedious but we never had a single trash wipe due to butt pulls and stuff.

[HCLM]

So you're trying to say that in vanilla every dung was like forti+tyrcanical+skittish + bolstering weeks, it may take 2hours to complete the dung where half of the time you spend on drinking, and on top of that you won't be able to find replacement if someone left the part as there won't be enough players to do that quickly? Sound like fun /s

[Hubbl3]

So you're trying to say that in vanilla every dung was like forti+tyrcanical+skittish + bolstering weeks, it may take 2hours to complete the dung where half of the time you spend on drinking, and on top of that you won't be able to find replacement if someone left the part as there won't be enough players to do that quickly? Sound like fun /s

People oversell how hard the dungeons were. Some dungeons could take a long time though due to the sheer size of them and if you want to do everything.

[Eldar45]

I like that no one will kill both sets of blood Elves in the front which stops the constant spawn from doing so. I usually just wait for them to all die and then kill them myself while the group is filling back up. Its amazing how often it happens.

Did you not just tell the group that is how it works? I actually didn't know that particular mechanic existed until someone frickin TOLD ME.

It's like people expect you to be a living WoWpedia.

[MatadorMedia]

I've been playing on a private server and no, the dps never learn to wait to dps or manage their threat. They didn't learn in Vanilla either. It was just always the tanks fault and forever will be, b/c DPS players don't know anything about mechanics (just numbers); they are the lazy players in WoW and always have been.

[Dhrizzle]

you forgot "all rogues must spec into improved sap"

NOOooo...
Watching Rogues fail is hilarious.

[Armourboy]

Did you not just tell the group that is how it works? I actually didn't know that particular mechanic existed until someone frickin TOLD ME.

It's like people expect you to be a living WoWpedia.

Yes every single time I've told them. You would be surprised just how thick headed people can be.

[Triden]

This is what made classic classic. The typical classic group had this kind of skills. "just type "hunter pulls", and everybody knew what was up. a good hunter could make difficult pulls a breeze, while nearly soloing the main mob while pulling.

Well, all I can say is I played on the same realm Risen was on (top raiding guild in the world during Vanilla, IIRC) and pugged basically every endgame dungeon run until I had my full dungeon set and I don't think I ever ran into anything even close to what you describe. In raids, hunter pulling was common. Having a hunter kite Drak was something every hunter was expected to know how to do. But expecting every hunter to know every pull in every endgame dungeon? Nope. That was the tank. You might find really good hunters occasionally, but I call BS if you're saying that was commonplace.

[Holofernes]

[QUOTE=Triden;50941351]Well, all I can say is I played on the same realm Risen was on (top raiding guild in the world during Vanilla, IIRC) and pugged basically every endgame dungeon run until I had my full dungeon set and I don't think I ever ran into anything even close to what you describe. In raids, hunter pulling was common. Having a hunter kite Drak was something every hunter was expected to know how to do. But expecting every hunter to know every pull in every endgame dungeon? Nope. That was the tank. You might find really good hunters occasionally, but I call BS if you're saying that was commonplace.[/QUOTE


i never heard of risen, i was playing on german realms. And yep good hunters were used to pull (as advertised back than, hunter was the "puller class" in wow (it was even introduced as such by blizzard), a role that has been long forgotten, and came from other mmorpgs like ultima or eq), and the experienced ones knew every pack, often better than most tanks. Every group had the hunter do the difficult or risky pulls for them, and it was a standard (at least on german realms).

Additionally, hunters had tracking abilities, that helped with oversight where pats and mobs where. All of our guild`s 8 hunters were capable of this, and we were not even a top guild or sth like that. And with good gear, a aimed / multi kombo deleted or severely wounded the main target . having a dire maul ogre dead or nearly killed from the pull only was something that nobody disliked.

[garicasha]

Almost every ability had a range of 30 yards, except one hunter ability which was 35, right?

Was it aimed shot or serpent sting, or all their abilities?

But yah feign death allowed them a do-over if they got an extra pack AND if NO ONE had done anything that caused any threat.

[RoKPaNda]

So what were you using to keep aggro from the healer?

- - - Updated - - -



IIRC Hunters had a similar mechanic to Warriors and Rogues where using an ability with no enemy selected would automatically target one ahead of you. That's fine for melee but with a range class it can cause headaches, especially in the UBRS arena fight if you attack the spectators.

Are you not aware that Thunderclap existed? It had a target cap but it also had a really short cooldown and could be used again by the time a second group got to you, it was more than enough to deal with heal aggro which was honestly never an issue on the tank's end. The only way you were going to lose aggro to a healer is if the healer stood right next to you on a pull or in front of you and then put a HoT on you or precasted a heal before the mobs actually got to you. Which is a heal fail, not a tank issue - And even in most cases where they pre-casted you still had more than adequate time to hit a couple mobs either with a special or an auto attack which was more than adequate before they got to the healer.


The only fear of losing aggro was from DPS that couldn't follow markers and went all in on a random mob. And in general you're right, tab sunder is what you're going to be relying on to keep mobs off the DPS, but after that initial pull where poor play from a healer could in theory (but not very likely) result in the healer getting smashed, you're never going to ever ever worry about heal aggro.

The question i want to make about classic is if people will create pugs for raids now that people have more knowledge,(i dont mean BWL AQ 40 ofc i talk about onyx aq20 ZG MC) on my server even though it was a high pop realm i dont remember pugs for raids.

There were ZG/AQ20 pugs and the high pop servers had MC pugs. You'll probably not see a BWL pug because Razorgore requires a surprising amount of coordination, a lot of the bosses would be puggable but the first one is such a hurdle to get over that I doubt it. There were AQ40 pugs for a couple of bosses and Naxx pugs even for Spider bosses and trash farming. So I expect you'll see those on Classic as well.

[RoKPaNda]

i dont know about all servers but on my server, blackmoore germany, people definitly pugged BWL

I never saw it personally, I know we did BWL carries for gold where we'd take several people, but I never personally saw a pug for it. It'll be interesting to see if they exist on classic servers.

[Triden]

i never heard of risen, i was playing on german realms.

Fair enough. I did some checking at retract my "top raiding guild in the world" comment. Seems I was mis-remembering that. They did have the world first kill on Heigan in Naxx though. I do believe they were at least top 10 though.

And yep good hunters were used to pull (as advertised back than, hunter was the "puller class" in wow (it was even introduced as such by blizzard), a role that has been long forgotten, and came from other mmorpgs like ultima or eq), and the experienced ones knew every pack, often better than most tanks. Every group had the hunter do the difficult or risky pulls for them, and it was a standard (at least on german realms).

I don't deny that hunters were designed well for doing pulls and that a good hunter was an asset in that regard. My point is simply that -- in my experience -- you didn't find many who were particularly amazing at it in pug groups. Having played through the last 50% of vanilla at max level -- and having pugged hundreds of endgame dungeons -- I have literally no strong recollection of hunters having an especially strong role there outside of 40 man raids. Again, I don't deny that the class was designed for it -- but that doesn't mean it worked out that way in common practice. They designed druids to be constantly shape shifting between forms in combat (hence why their gear had int and other stats useful between forms), but practically speaking it never happened.

So, yeah. I'm just saying generally speaking -- again, in my experience -- hunters (although capable of doing so) were never generally amazing at knowing all dungeons and doing all pulls. That was mostly tanks who did this because they cared more about it and it was their primary job to know that.

Edit: To put this another way, I would say most players who rolled hunters didn't do so because they wanted to lead dungeon groups and do the pulling. Tanks on the other hand are typically very interested in doing this.

[Armourboy]

We used everything in the world for pulling. Some of it was rather creative and some of it didn't work, but we would try just about anything.

[Whistl3r]

I think we'll see clearly those who played in vanilla and those who didn't. People who didn't will learn just like we did.

[Lochton]

So you worry with the current state of WoW that people may forget themselves in WoW: Classic.

Do you think people may need to be reminded?

No you cannot mass pull the whole dungeon
You have to CC (most times)
Pull mobs, don't charge in.
No, the hunter cannot pull.
Wait for threat, control your dps.
Dps management during fights, don't over aggro.
Get that threat meter addon

I don't think everyone is stupid here. I know most of you already know this. But let's not kid ourselves, we will most likely end up in a group that has been so spoiled by todays WoW that either they totally forgot these things or just didn't know.

For most of our experiences this summer I do feel the most exciting thing is that for most people it will be like learning and learning again :P

*yawn*

Yay... I just can't wait to have to be the tanking teacher.. or worse, to tell DPS to keep their shit together..

[RoKPaNda]

I cannot remember a case of it in Classic but in TBC you had the double Fungal Giant pull in Underbog where tank damage was so severe that healers would easily pull aggro even with salvation. You either had to blow defensive cooldowns on the pull and hope you survived or use a priest with binding heal.

Were you the healer? Was your tank just positioning them poorly or something? It was REALLY hard to lose aggro to a healer unless you were completely neglecting a mob, even if you were undergeared on a pull like that. If I'm remembering that pull correctly the correct answer was to use a defensive on the pull if you didn't have good gear. If you have the two mobs converge on you and you're properly applying threat to the second target there isn't any way that a healer should pull aggro. I'd love to see the scenario you're remembering though.

[ZazuuPriest]

agreed, I've got a good example of what will happen. a lock will corruption every mob before it reaches the tank and immediately cast a shadow bolt which will crit for 2k and do 2x the threat the tank would of generated on that 1 mob while the corruptions continue to tick on the other mobs and the tank is trying to catch up but the lock keeps casting shadow bolts.


god help me

just let the lock die