[EU] Brexit negotiations at a standstill

[Kronik85]

I think it would make the matter worse. The divisions can't be healed by ignoring those who voted leave - they need to brought around to the idea of remaining.

But they can be healed by ignoring those who voted Remain? I don't want to put words in your mouth but if you're not saying one thing then there is a good chance you're saying the other.

[Pann]

Well we know one alternative that the EU entertained, the plan presented by Corbyn. But ultimately even that is something that serves as a starting point and it would need an extension and vigorous negotiations to work.

I'm not surprised as once you strip away the nonsense, like having a say in how the EU conducts trade deals, full access the SM without FoM, etc, it is essentially staying in the EU whilst having no say in how it is run.

But just to clear up Labour's policy, according to John Healey they have no issues with the Withdrawal Agreement and would not seek to renegotiate it. Bonkers!

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Is that a possibility? I honestly cannot see how this division could be healed as fast as it needs to be healed.

No, not in my opinion.

[Pann]

But they can be healed by ignoring those who voted Remain? I don't want to put words in your mouth but if you're not saying one thing then there is a good chance you're saying the other.

Remain lost. Whilst the wishes of remain voters should be taken in account, the answer is not ignoring the narrow majority in favour of them.

I have no issue with another ref. but to ignore the result of the first will only make matters worse.

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So you can break your democracy by 4% more without fucking the economy or you can break it by 4% less AND fuck the economy.

If only things were that simple. You can't just ignore voters because the result is unpalatable.

[Huehuecoyotl]

I think it would make the matter worse. The divisions can't be healed by ignoring those who voted leave - they need to brought around to the idea of remaining.

We've had two years of the 75% of the country that didn't vote for Brexit being ignored. Yet suddenly we're the ones that have to be the bigger people?

Fuck them. And fuck their ridiculous Brexit. Cancel the damn thing, and get back to the process of actually fixing the problems this country has. If they want to go on pissing and moaning about how terrible the EU is, let them emigrate to a country that isn't in it. Instead of trying to drag the country they are in, out.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

Remain lost. Whilst the wishes of remain voters should be taken in account, the answer is not ignoring the narrow majority in favour of them.

I have no issue with another ref. but to ignore the result of the first will only make matters worse.

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If only things were that simple. You can't just ignore voters because the result is unpalatable.

When the result is that close you can't pretend the other side don't exist either though, which is what the government has done for the last three years.

[Pann]

We've had two years of the 75% of the country that didn't vote for Brexit being ignored. Yet suddenly we're the ones that have to be the bigger people?

Fuck them. And fuck their ridiculous Brexit. Cancel the damn thing, and get back to the process of actually fixing the problems this country has. If they want to go on pissing and moaning about how terrible the EU is, let them emigrate to a country that isn't in it. Instead of trying to drag the country they are in, out.

People who don't vote are by virtue of not voting happy to go along with the majority and you don't help your argument by implying they support remain. Such is democracy the minority has to bend to the majority. Democracy also allows to change the minds of the people that disagree with them unfortunately the most vocal remainers have spent the last three years looking down on leave voters whilst making snide comments about them and, well, we are where we are.

[Kronik85]

Remain lost. Whilst the wishes of remain voters should be taken in account, the answer is not ignoring the narrow majority in favour of them.

I have no issue with another ref. but to ignore the result of the first will only make matters worse.

Is having a second ref not ignoring the first? What we need is honesty from our politicians as to the realism of Brexit rather than pretending to be amazing democrats whilst secretly trying to have their cake and eat it.

If your pro Brexit you tell your voters there are no unicorns, only hardships and irrelevance. If your for Remain then you tell it straight that the EU isn't perfect but it's the best we've got.

[Dizzeeyooo]

Remain lost. Whilst the wishes of remain voters should be taken in account, the answer is not ignoring the narrow majority in favour of them

Remain lost two and a half years ago, in a competition against something that is clearly undeliverable as described in the referendum. Why is "remain lost" something that anyone reasonable would still say at this point?

unfortunately the most vocal remainers have spent the last three years looking down on leave voters whilst making snide comments about them

And you wonder why people don't believe that you voted remain

[Pann]

When the result is that close you can't pretend the other side don't exist either though, which is what the government has done for the last three years.

From what I have read of the WA and from comments from more balanced commentators the proposal is as close to remaining as you can get whilst still respecting the ref. result. It seems to me that the most vocal on both sides are utterly unreasonable and will not accept anything that deviates from their wants (hard brexit/remain) therefore I don't know what else could have been done.

[Dizzeeyooo]

the proposal is as close to remaining as you can get whilst still respecting the ref. result

The proposal is what you get when you want to end freedom of movement while maintaining no hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland by effectively allowing the beginnings of Irish reunification.

Feel free to offer proof that the overwhelming majority of people that voted to leave explicitly wanted either of those two things above everything else that was on offer from the vote leave campaign.

[Pann]

Is having a second ref not ignoring the first? What we need is honesty from our politicians as to the realism of Brexit rather than pretending to be amazing democrats whilst secretly trying to have their cake and eat it.

If your pro Brexit you tell your voters there are no unicorns, only hardships and irrelevance. If your for Remain then you tell it straight that the EU isn't perfect but it's the best we've got.

Only if you are an idiot. Democracy is not a static event and people are allowed to change their minds.

I totally agree and that should form the basis of the campaigns for a 2nd ref. (if there is one) however we all know politics doesn't work that way.

[Kronik85]

Only if you are an idiot. Democracy is not a static event and people are allowed to change their minds.

I totally agree and that should form the basis of the campaigns for a 2nd ref. (if there is one) however we all know politics doesn't work that way.

. Well I knew we'd get to consensus eventually lol. I also agree with what you've saying about May's Deal, it is actually the middle of the road compromise, its main issue is that it crystallizes how utterly pointless Brexit is because even a No Deal Brexit where we get to legislate independently will actually result in less sovereignty once the big boys take us behind the bike sheds to "negotiate" those totally amazing trade deals we were told were on the table.

[Dizzeeyooo]

people are allowed to change their minds

Weird how MPs keep getting the opportunity every week to change their mind regarding May's shitty deal, but a second referendum to see if people have changed their minds after 2.5 years is completely out of the question.

[Pann]

. Well I knew we'd get to consensus eventually lol. I also agree with what you've saying about May's Deal, it is actually the middle of the road compromise, its main issue is that it crystallizes how utterly pointless Brexit is.

I probably don't explain myself too well at times (and I do tend to dragged into things ).

I agree with you but I firmly believe we have to try to fix things not just ignore the things we don't like. Unfortunately I have no idea how to go about this and it seems like no-one else does either. I think, maybe, Merkel is right that this needs a generation to heal.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

From what I have read of the WA and from comments from more balanced commentators the proposal is as close to remaining as you can get whilst still respecting the ref. result. It seems to me that the most vocal on both sides are utterly unreasonable and will not accept anything that deviates from their wants (hard brexit/remain) therefore I don't know what else could have been done.

We wouldn't be in the position we are if May had reached across the table and worked out a position on Brexit that the House could actually agree on instead of acting like she had a super-majority in the Commons.

The Prime Minister of what is effectively a minority government, instead of seeking a national consensus on what Brexit should actually be, ignored everybody except the ERG and set off to Brussels saying she was going to be a pain in the butt to work with and not back down on anything. It really isn't surprising that the deal she returned with is unacceptable to most.

[Pann]

We wouldn't be in the position we are if May had reached across the table and worked out a position on Brexit that the House could actually agree on instead of acting like she had a super-majority in the Commons.

The Prime Minister of what is effectively a minority government, instead of seeking a national consensus on what Brexit should actually be, ignored everybody except the ERG and set off to Brussels saying she was going to be a pain in the butt to work with and not back down on anything. It really isn't surprising that the deal she returned with is unacceptable to most.

I think that is nothing more than wishful thinking. There are three factions at work within the HoC: Leave, remain and party politics. I think party politics would have simply gotten in the way, I mean just look at it now - with little more than two weeks to go they still cannot agree!

I don't think she has taken that much heed of what the ERG want, certainly she has tried to keep her party together but this is the case for most PMs, as if she had they would not be voting against her deal for being not a hard enough Brexit.

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One thing I wonder is how Brexit debate feels at home. There is a clearly generational effect on this so I do wonder how many children and young adults confront their parents and grandparents on this. Ultimately division is healed on a personal level, not on a political level imo.

In my experience, which is by no means definitive, there isn't really a debate. Most people have had enough and simply don't care and those that do know to avoid it as it is a toxic subject.

[Dizzeeyooo]

I mean she also ignored the ERG. Nothing she ever came back with from Brussels would ever be acceptable to them

She completely pandered to the ERG up until the point that she had to actually start writing things down on paper - Brexit means Brexit, no deal is better than a bad deal, etc etc etc, all of those utterly meaningless slogans were all red meat for the ERG, nothing more.

[Pann]

@Butler Log sorry to pick on you here but you have, perhaps inadvertently, hit on a big problem with the Brexit debate. You support remain and as a result claim that May is ignoring everyone but the ERG yet the evidence shows that this is very clearly not the case. Ironically if you go to leave dominated forums they will be complaining that she listens to no-one but the remain contingent in the Con party. There's no middle ground anymore and we end up with two extremes going at one another's throats as they feel if the other side is being treated better and they are being ignored whilst the majority are caught in between.

[downnola]

We should just make England the 51st state and let the other countries remain in the EU.

[Kronik85]

I think that is nothing more than wishful thinking. There are three factions at work within the HoC: Leave, remain and party politics. I think party politics would have simply gotten in the way, I mean just look at it now - with little more than two weeks to go they still cannot agree!

I don't think she has taken that much heed of what the ERG want, certainly she has tried to keep her party together but this is the case for most PMs, as if she had they would not be voting against her deal for being not a hard enough Brexit.

So if the ERG feel ignored and every other Conservative politician feels ignored then where does that leave us on judging May?

Personally I think Labour (don't worry, there is a caveat here) could of been won over and the Lib Dems and the rest would of gone along with a Brexit deal without the Red Lines.

Now to elaborate on where I think we differ on Labour. She was never winning over Corbyn and the front bench but the PLP itself could have been very easy to woo, using Corbyn's tacit approval of Hard Brexit as an opportunity to undermine and ultimately oust Corbyn as Cooper and the other moderates upped their profiles and approval by being the sensible MPs willing to put country before party and actually secure a Brexit deal.