now that zandalar are here are darkspear trolls completely worthless

[sillag]

zandalari just joined the horde as arguably one of the top most powerful races in it. so powerful that talanji can just tell sylvanas they're skipping the blood oath and she accepts it.

now compare them to our regular trolls. its basically like a virgin/chad comic. zandalar trolls are like 12 feet tall, glowing eyes, can be paladins, cool dinosaur skin, gold tattoos, vast golden city that sure it got sieged but they kept hold of it, and have the favor of like 10 dinosaur gods who show up in person to help them and give them blessings. they also have turbo regeneration that heals them fully in 3 seconds

now our darkspear trolls are not so good. they have no glowing eyes, live on a tiny island which they humilatingly lost entirely to a level 10 warlock after having lost their last tiny island to murlocs, their leader is dead and a ghost and is also best known for making the dumbest succession decision in all of history, and even their cool mysterious sounding loa that the shadow hunters worshipped bwonsamdi is now palling around with the zandalari instead.

btw even vol'jin's ghost is spending more time with the zandalar than his own people now. also he considered the zandalari enemies and was proud the darkspear had gotten away from their dumb xenophobic troll ways but look where that got them.

based on all of this how will darkspear ever be relevant again. they have rokhan and no one else. maybe that druid lady. but zandalari druids are like 10 times cooler than troll druids too with their dinosaur powers. darkspear kind of awkwardly tried to join the cenarion circle but never got taken seriously


and you can bet whatever happens to sylvanas the zandalari are going to be key players in it. meanwhile the darkspear are just kind of part of the horde maybe. they are probably doomed to go slowly extinct.

how can we save our old friends the darkspears. how can we make them relevant again. obviously they have absolutely nothing to offer the zandalari trolls. but what do they have that no one else does now. will we ever see them do anything ever again?

[Darththeo]

Stop assuming game mechanics = lore

[sillag]

Stop assuming game mechanics = lore

well ok we can pretend zandalari have worse regeneration if it makes you feel better. you can even use that to dismiss all of the great lore points i made like there being next to no notable darkspears left, no darkspear story arc left, and the power of zandalari compared against the weak stuff the darkspear provide.

i just dont see darkspears being taken seriously ever again. heck even if you go to darkshore its not the darkspear trolls there its the shatterspear trolls from the darkshore quests.

they basically feel like a dead race at this point and i dont see it ever being fixed. the night elves were nearly wiped out but blizz gave them a comeback patch. what are the darkspear going to come back against. they're definitely not getting any troll screen time while the zandalari are around because the zandalari outshine them in literally every way

[Thage]

If the Darkspear were never taken seriously as druids, the Zen'kiki quest line wouldn't be a thing. The Cenarion Circle invested an awful lot of time into figuring out where his competence lay and how to nourish that seed to just consider him some bargain bin sideshow. The Darkspear are still generally better scouts than the Zandalari, to boot, as the Shadow Hunter tradition has all but died in Zandalari culture while it is considered the apex of what a Darkspear can aspire to be.

[Dethxx]

#alltrolllivesmatter

[Darththeo]

well ok we can pretend zandalari have worse regeneration if it makes you feel better. you can even use that to dismiss all of the great lore points i made like there being next to no notable darkspears left, no darkspear story arc left, and the power of zandalari compared against the weak stuff the darkspear provide.

i just dont see darkspears being taken seriously ever again. heck even if you go to darkshore its not the darkspear trolls there its the shatterspear trolls from the darkshore quests.

they basically feel like a dead race at this point and i dont see it ever being fixed. the night elves were nearly wiped out but blizz gave them a comeback patch. what are the darkspear going to come back against. they're definitely not getting any troll screen time while the zandalari are around because the zandalari outshine them in literally every way

I was pointing out your statement they lost their isle to a level 10 warlock, but thanks for assuming what I meant.

During a quest with Vol'jin ... it is implied he isn't undead. The Lich King states to a group containing Vol'jin that they are "Neither undead or damned." Ghosts are undead.

Also, tell me when Zandalari can be Death Knights

[sillag]

If the Darkspear were never taken seriously as druids, the Zen'kiki quest line wouldn't be a thing. The Cenarion Circle invested an awful lot of time into figuring out where his competence lay and how to nourish that seed to just consider him some bargain bin sideshow. The Darkspear are still generally better scouts than the Zandalari, to boot, as the Shadow Hunter tradition has all but died in Zandalari culture while it is considered the apex of what a Darkspear can aspire to be.

idk dude i main druid and zenkiki isnt really inspiring as an example. if anything he's kind of an indication that darkspear trolls maybe shouldnt be druids.

shadowhunters are legit though thats a good contribution. i do however feel that shadowhunters lost some of their uniqueness now that bwonsamdi is basically god of the zandalar trolls.

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I was pointing out your statement they lost their isle to a level 10 warlock, but thanks for assuming what I meant.

lmao dude if youre gonna have conversations im afraid people are going to assume what u mean. thats how conversations and communication works. so better get used to that

well i guess you can also pretend zalazane wasnt level 10 and was actually some huge threat but im sorry to tell you that in the grand scheme he really isnt all that powerful and its still embarrassing for the darkspears to lose their home to effectively 1 guy with some voodoo.

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anyway darkspear death knights is a really bad example for a lot of different reasons

1. darkspear didnt become death knights of their own power

2. death knights arent unique to darkspear, they share them with like 12 different races

3. like u said, its using game mechanics. theres technically nothing preventing a zandalari death knight from existing since we know they were around on the eastern kingdoms back in vanilla days

what we're looking for in this thread is a unique factor that the darkspear can have that makes them worth paying attention to in this universe anymore. whats the darkspear factor. what do they have that no one else can do

[Darththeo]

well i guess you can also pretend zalazane wasnt level 10 and was actually some huge threat but im sorry to tell you that in the grand scheme he really isnt all that powerful and its still embarrassing for the darkspears to lose their home to effectively 1 guy with some voodoo.

First off, he wasn't. His most recent appearance has him at 120.

He required the aide of Bwonsamdi to kill in the cata pre lauch event meaning he was level 80 at the time.

If you are going to focus on game mechanics over lore ... you are just going to be wrong all the time.

The issue is you are using game mechanics and ignoring lore ... but you only care about the game mechanics that support your point.

[sillag]

First off, he wasn't. His most recent appearance has him at 120.

He required the aide of Bwonsamdi to kill in the cata pre lauch event meaning he was level 80 at the time.

If you are going to focus on game mechanics over lore ... you are just going to be wrong all the time.

i mean that still doesnt make him a serious threat dude. voljin is a shadow hunter he has bwonsamdi help him do literally anything. fact of the matter is this isnt like the lich king showed up and took over their island. this guy is roughly on a level with the gnomeregan leper gnome boss.

[Darththeo]

i mean that still doesnt make him a serious threat dude. voljin is a shadow hunter he has bwonsamdi help him do literally anything. fact of the matter is this isnt like the lich king showed up and took over their island. this guy is roughly on a level with the gnomeregan leper gnome boss.

So unless the threat is from a "big bad" it is 100% pathetic. I guess you don't care about the druids that died in the Stonetalon quest line because they got beat by a low level Orc General ... they were just pathetic, right?

I also don't think you understand how Loa work ... have you even played BfA at this point?

[Caerule]

The Darkspear are kind of the mavericks of the Troll races. While all the other tribes looked back into the past to their past glory, the Zandalar were the first to look to the future. It is them that started this journey. It's taken a lot of effort, but now the Zandalari follow the same path as those pioneers. And perhaps they will not be the last.

The Vol'jin book also does much to explain what favors the Darkspear over the Zandalari. The Zandalari do hold great favor for the Loa. They honor them. Make great sacrifices and dedications to them. Entwine them deeply into their culture. But they separated themselves from nature, by setting up such a civilization. The Zandalari do so much to appease the Loa, because they are further away from them. This is best expressed by them lacking Shadow Hunters. Shadow Hunters are a primal guide to the will of the Loa. They form the bridge between a people and path the Loa set of them. Zandalari culture is grand. But the Darkspear are more the way the Loa want the Trolls to be like. This is why the Darkspear have still enjoyed so much favor from the Loa, despite smaller numbers and being a foil to the Zandalari on several occasions.

The Zandalari see themselves as the rightful rulers of the Trolls and believe their path is the superior one. But where it comes to being proper Trolls, it is actually the Darkspear that are in the lead by a long shot.

[Shelly]

Zandalari, despite having their capital shit on twice now, are probably the ONLY race coming to the Horde in a position of strength.

It's not that they are displacing the Darkspear, it's that they are literally in a better place than EVERYONE ELSE IN THE HORDE!

Forsaken joined because they needed allies to keep from being wiped out by the Alliance that could have moved north at pretty much any time and reclaimed Stromgarde and just crushed the former areas of Lordaeron.

Orcs, started the new Horde but they are literally refugees from internment camps. They knew they needed allies and chose races weaker than they were to start the core of the new Horde.

Tauren, were almost extinct by centaur.

Darkspear, almost extinct by humans.

Goblins, refugees that buy their way in by getting a solid with Thrall. Otherwise their main homeland is a giant crater.

Blood Elves, a decadent fallen civilization on the edge of extinction, slowly falling to their arcane cravings and many giving in to the powers of Fel.

Only the Zandalari are in a position of strength.

They have the most defensible homeland and are worth their salt.

[sillag]

So unless the threat is from a "big bad" it is 100% pathetic. I guess you don't care about the druids that died in the Stonetalon quest line because they got beat by a low level Orc General ... they were just pathetic, right?

I also don't think you understand how Loa work ... have you even played BfA at this point?

dude im not gonna talk to u about levels since youre obviously trying to derail the thread. please troll elsewhere the lore forum is a place for reasoned discussion.

[Darththeo]

dude im not gonna talk to u about levels since youre obviously trying to derail the thread. please troll elsewhere the lore forum is a place for reasoned discussion.

I am not the one trolling here. You were the one that first mentioned levels in the first place ... I can't derail your thread by pointing that your argument is flawed.

[sillag]

The Darkspear are kind of the mavericks of the Troll races. While all the other tribes looked back into the past to their past glory, the Zandalar were the first to look to the future. It is them that started this journey. It's taken a lot of effort, but now the Zandalari follow the same path as those pioneers. And perhaps they will not be the last.

The Vol'jin book also does much to explain what favors the Darkspear over the Zandalari. The Zandalari do hold great favor for the Loa. They honor them. Make great sacrifices and dedications to them. Entwine them deeply into their culture. But they separated themselves from nature, by setting up such a civilization. The Zandalari do so much to appease the Loa, because they are further away from them. This is best expressed by them lacking Shadow Hunters. Shadow Hunters are a primal guide to the will of the Loa. They form the bridge between a people and path the Loa set of them. Zandalari culture is grand. But the Darkspear are more the way the Loa want the Trolls to be like. This is why the Darkspear have still enjoyed so much favor from the Loa, despite smaller numbers and being a foil to the Zandalari on several occasions.

The Zandalari see themselves as the rightful rulers of the Trolls and believe their path is the superior one. But where it comes to being proper Trolls, it is actually the Darkspear that are in the lead by a long shot.

this is all nice but honestly with the way the loa are depicted in bfa im gonna go ahead and say blizzard have obviously retconned any idea that the zandalari are less favored by the loa. i mean have u quested in bfa. even for a second. these guys are personally hanging out with every loa. its a very weak excuse to then say ehh but the darkspear are really better and thats why they dont hang out with the loa in person. that would not work to explain why your gf is hanging out with another dude all the time and im afraid its not gonna work with the loa.

see the thing is im sure that was written to make the darkspear seem cooler than the zandalar so players wouldnt feel like the worst trolls. but now that zandalar are playable blizz turned their efforts to making them as cool as possible, and in doing so gave them all the loa. its even in their racials. so i dont think we can treat shadows of the horde as canon anymore.

[Archmage Zana]

Oh my God. Zalazane wasn't a "level 10 Warlock". He was literally the most powerful Witch Doctor the Darkspears had at the time, so much that for a time it was thought Sen'jin saw his potential and was training him to become leader of the Darkspears while Vol'jin would move on to a different goal. So no, Zalazane wasn't this weak low level that somehow kicked out AN ENTIRE TRIBE and to assume that is honestly laughable.

Secondly, Darkspears are still among the most versatile races in the game, having 10 classes available to them. I think such number is only shared by 2 other races.

Darkspears thrived in the horde while most other troll tribes were picking scraps or were literally driven to extinction.

Vol'jin is probably the first non Zandalari troll leader to receive a place at Atal'dazar, by request of the Princess of Zandalar herself, who comes to truly admire him. She draws strength from his words to become an even more confident leader to her people.

The same way you say Zandalari are better because they can be Paladins I can say Darkspear are superior because they can be Warlocks and Death Knights, it's not something that automatically makes them better, it just makes them different.

Saying they are better because of different customization options also seems useless because they aren't better or worst, they are just different. I for one, hate the golden tattoos, I think they look ugly and have a terrible resolution, and I think Darkspears have more interesting hair customization and colours.

All in all I don't think Zandalari will "kill" the Darkspears, they are both trolls but they are very different, I would never trade my Darkspears for Zandalari, the only character I race changed was my mage because I already imagined her as a Zandalari before they were even announced.

I just love trolls and I'm glad we have another type of troll to play as in addition to the darling Darkspears.

[sillag]

Oh my God. Zalazane wasn't a "level 10 Warlock". He was literally the most powerful Witch Doctor the Darkspears had at the time, so much that for a time it was thought Sen'jin saw his potential and was training him to become leader of the Darkspears while Vol'jin would move on to a different goal. So no, Zalazane wasn't this weak low level that somehow kicked out AN ENTIRE TRIBE and to assume that is honestly laughable.

Secondly, Darkspears are still among the most versatile races in the game, having 10 classes available to them. I think such number is only shared by 2 other races.

Darkspears thrived in the horde while most other troll tribes were picking scraps or were literally driven to extinction.

Vol'jin is probably the first non Zandalari troll leader to receive a place at Atal'dazar, by request of the Princess of Zandalar herself, who comes to truly admire him. She draws strength from his words to become an even more confident leader to her people.

The same way you say Zandalari are better because they can be Paladins I can say Darkspear are superior because they can be Warlocks and Death Knights, it's not something that automatically makes them better, it just makes them different.

Saying they are better because of different customization options also seems useless because they aren't better or worst, they are just different. I for one, hate the golden tattoos, I think they look ugly and have a terrible resolution, and I think Darkspears have more interesting hair customization and colours.

All in all I don't think Zandalari will "kill" the Darkspears, they are both trolls but they are very different, I would never trade my Darkspears for Zandalari, the only character I race changed was my mage because I already imagined her as a Zandalari before they were even announced.

I just love trolls and I'm glad we have another type of troll to play as in addition to the darling Darkspears.

ok we can pretend zalazane was hot shit all u like. in the end im afraid it doesnt amount to anything. "our island was actually taken over by a really strong guy" is not gonna make the darkspear seem any less pathetic as compared to the zandalari

now u make a good point when u talk about the darkspear thriving in the horde because until now that was their uniqueness. they were the horde trolls. while the other trolls were out being savage morons getting rekt by everyone they started a fight with, the darkspears were part of a big faction making a new future

well guess what? thats the zandalar too now only they also have all the cool troll shit the darkspear can only dream of. this is why in lore darkspear are doomed to irrelevance and probably extinction.

[Margamanthak]

zandalari just joined the horde as arguably one of the top most powerful races in it. so powerful that talanji can just tell sylvanas they're skipping the blood oath and she accepts it.

now compare them to our regular trolls. its basically like a virgin/chad comic. zandalar trolls are like 12 feet tall, glowing eyes, can be paladins, cool dinosaur skin, gold tattoos, vast golden city that sure it got sieged but they kept hold of it, and have the favor of like 10 dinosaur gods who show up in person to help them and give them blessings. they also have turbo regeneration that heals them fully in 3 seconds

now our darkspear trolls are not so good. they have no glowing eyes, live on a tiny island which they humilatingly lost entirely to a level 10 warlock after having lost their last tiny island to murlocs, their leader is dead and a ghost and is also best known for making the dumbest succession decision in all of history, and even their cool mysterious sounding loa that the shadow hunters worshipped bwonsamdi is now palling around with the zandalari instead.

btw even vol'jin's ghost is spending more time with the zandalar than his own people now. also he considered the zandalari enemies and was proud the darkspear had gotten away from their dumb xenophobic troll ways but look where that got them.

based on all of this how will darkspear ever be relevant again. they have rokhan and no one else. maybe that druid lady. but zandalari druids are like 10 times cooler than troll druids too with their dinosaur powers. darkspear kind of awkwardly tried to join the cenarion circle but never got taken seriously


and you can bet whatever happens to sylvanas the zandalari are going to be key players in it. meanwhile the darkspear are just kind of part of the horde maybe. they are probably doomed to go slowly extinct.

how can we save our old friends the darkspears. how can we make them relevant again. obviously they have absolutely nothing to offer the zandalari trolls. but what do they have that no one else does now. will we ever see them do anything ever again?

Okay, first off, their first tiny island was sunk into the ocean by a sea witch, not some murlocs. Not even the zandalari could survive that. Also, lore-wise, Zalazane was one of the strongest witch doctors they had at the time, and a close friend of Vol'jin, who corrupted MOST of the Darkspear Trolls with his Dark Magic. Lore Wise, it's like comparing Zalazane to Zul in terms of relative power to who they betrayed.

Also, part of Zalazane's fall to madness was a Loa-induced vision, so you should really be blaming them for all this. They're 0 for 2 as far as the Darkspear are concerned.

Although I agree that they could be doing more. Maybe blizzard could start by actually electing a successor to Vol'jin for the Darkspear, but they haven't even bothered to elect a new Orc leader, so we can probably kiss that train goodbye. Perhaps with Vol'jin becoming a Loa like Blizzard's been teasing, he'll be able to bring them back to some relevance.

[Archmage Zana]

this is all nice but honestly with the way the loa are depicted in bfa im gonna go ahead and say blizzard have obviously retconned any idea that the zandalari are less favored by the loa. i mean have u quested in bfa. even for a second. these guys are personally hanging out with every loa. its a very weak excuse to then say ehh but the darkspear are really better and thats why they dont hang out with the loa in person. that would not work to explain why your gf is hanging out with another dude all the time and im afraid its not gonna work with the loa.

see the thing is im sure that was written to make the darkspear seem cooler than the zandalar so players wouldnt feel like the worst trolls. but now that zandalar are playable blizz turned their efforts to making them as cool as possible, and in doing so gave them all the loa. its even in their racials. so i dont think we can treat shadows of the horde as canon anymore.

A Troll tribe doesn't "get all the Loa". For example, the Zandalari didn't "take" Bwonsamdi. Unless it's a particular Loa specific to that Tribe like Rezan, for example, the Loa will just go ahead and answer whoever the hell they want as long as you make a bargain or worship them. Bwonsamdi didn't stop being a major Loa to the Darkspears because he is also prominently allied to the Zandalari now. They are Wild Gods, they don't belong to a tribe, they do whatever the frickity frackle they want. If some never answered the Darkspear it's because probably they didn't even know they existed. Before BfA Rokhan didn't even know Rezan was a thing. But now that the Darkspear have come to Zandalar they will inevitably forge pacts with the local Loa. Hell, Krag'wa's most recent follower is a Darkspear Shadow Hunter.

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ok we can pretend zalazane was hot shit all u like. in the end im afraid it doesnt amount to anything. "our island was actually taken over by a really strong guy" is not gonna make the darkspear seem any less pathetic as compared to the zandalari

now u make a good point when u talk about the darkspear thriving in the horde because until now that was their uniqueness. they were the horde trolls. while the other trolls were out being savage morons getting rekt by everyone they started a fight with, the darkspears were part of a big faction making a new future

well guess what? thats the zandalar too now only they also have all the cool troll shit the darkspear can only dream of. this is why in lore darkspear are doomed to irrelevance and probably extinction.

The Zandalari would have been doomed by Zul if Talanji didn't reach to the Horde. That's their bad guy.

I mean, what you say seems more like a personal preference than an actual fact. In your perspective Zandalari are cooler, and that's absolutely valid, but perhaps someone else thinks Darkspear are still the coolest. You seem to be talking about the number of players actively playing a race which doesn't reflect in the Lore at all. So no, unless Blizzard literally writes into the story that the Darkspears died out, there could be literally one person left in the world playing a Darkspear troll it still wouldn't make the race extinct in the game's Canon.

[sillag]

A Troll tribe doesn't "get all the Loa". For example, the Zandalari didn't "take" Bwonsamdi. Unless it's a particular Loa specific to that Tribe like Rezan, for example, the Loa will just go ahead and answer whoever the hell they want as long as you make a bargain or worship them. Bwonsamdi didn't stop being a major Loa to the Darkspears because he is also prominently allied to the Zandalari now. They are Wild Gods, they don't belong to a tribe, they do whatever the frickity frackle they want. If some never answered the Darkspear it's because probably they didn't even know they existed. Before BfA Rokhan didn't even know Rezan was a thing. But now that the Darkspear have come to Zandalar they will inevitably forge pacts with the local Loa. Hell, Krag'wa's most recent follower is a Darkspear Shadow Hunter.

see u can say this but the game shows u are wrong. the loa consistently fight alongside the zandalari in person. the darkspear couldn't get bwonsamdi to show up for the siege of orgrimmar but he came to save darza'alor 2 times. there's just nothing to tell us the loa care about the darkspear or see them as significant in any way. that darkspear shadow hunter will likely have to give up his darkspear culture and become a zandalari to fit in with the kragwa worshippers.

i think going forward we will see the subsumation of all darkspear troll culture and identity into the zandalari, especially now that ghost vol'jin would rather spend his time training talanji to lead the zandalar than you know, pick a new darkspear leader