Baine needs to die for his treason

[melzas]

Baine is standing up for what he believes in and doesn't fear the consequences of doing so. He deserves a a medal, not execution.

If he was standing up for what he believes in, he should do what he did, but then leave the Horde and take the Tauren with him. It's a nonsense that he hates Sylvanas, betrays her, but is still in her Horde...

[NoKingRulesForever]

If he was standing up for what he believes in, he should do what he did, but then leave the Horde and take the Tauren with him. It's a nonsense that he hates Sylvanas, betrays her, but is still in her Horde...

Sylvanas betrayed the Horde before Baine betrayed her diabolical orders - that is fact.

[Amaterasu65]

If he was standing up for what he believes in, he should do what he did, but then leave the Horde and take the Tauren with him. It's a nonsense that he hates Sylvanas, betrays her, but is still in her Horde...

So Sylvanas burns Thunderbluff and raise them in her service? Noty.

[Verdugo]

So Sylvanas burns Thunderbluff and raise them in her service? Noty.

Nah, Baine would fully commit to defense since he would be finaly fighting the Horde.

[RussianGoblin]

Seriously this.

When I see people emotionally reacting to this cardboard story I question how the hell you guys are still invested in this. It's MoP with zombies instead of orcs. Blizzard's writing team is so terrible that it actually recycled its own story.

Like holy shit. I thought Legion was bad, but Legion looks like Shakespeare next to this. The cinematics are well done and staged nicely but the substance is the storytelling equivalent of white bread.

not to mention a complete whackjob wow's timeline/setting is, i mean in vanilla anduin was a small child, now hes 20-ish king, so thats about 15 years, in that time alliance and horde fought many wars against world-ending villains, demonic horde, undead legions, crazy dragons and so on, fought a few wars against each other, now theyre killing each other again, and will soon fight against naga empire ~~
how can they sustain never-ending wars, just how many soldiers do they have? are they mass producing soldiers out of thin air?
warcraft had a decent story until wow was released. now its total non-sense crap with lots of badly written god-like heroes and cheap writing for kids.
thats a resut of playable 2 faction, major villan every year expansion plan.
how can anyone be so hyped-up about this "story" is beyond me.

[dragnipur]

You mean MoP 2.0

Yea my bad.I meant MoP

[Muajin76]

He already sold them to the Alliance along with his soul.

Ouch...a warchief with no balls or soul. Can't fathom that thought! Wait..Sylvanas has no balls or a soul.

[redtears]

sylvanas best Place now is red light district Amsterdam ./.

[Irian]

I enjoyed legions story because it felt like a nice cheesy bombastic Saturday cartoon plot. Whenever they try to be complex or deep they fall on their face.

That's exactly why I gave it a big pass. Legion was okay because while yeah it was pretty by-the-numbers and a ton of wasted potential, I kind of don't expect anything more from the writing in WoW. It was cheesy and dumb, but it was okay. Some points like a lot of the Argus storytelling was actually pretty decent, too, and almost made me feel like we were seeing the closest thing we'd get to closure to WC3.

BfA feels like it's taking itself deadly serious, which makes it hard to laugh at how corny the game's writing is. I can't help but get the feeling that Blizzard somehow doesn't know how bad their own writing is. They're trying to write what could best be described as a political drama based plot with the writing nuance and creativity of a teenager writing fanfic for their favorite franchise.

We're back to basic good vs evil garbage, with a cartoon villain antagonist and they actually think it'll be something shocking and surprising when it turns out Sylvanas had a plan all along and stops N'zoth or whatever. If you write the same fucking story twice but slightly alter the ending it doesn't suddenly make it a different story, we still have to sit here and snooze through shitty MoP until about 6 months from now.

[Muajin76]

sylvanas best Place now is red light district Amsterdam ./.

brothel owner?

[Loveliest]

Pfft... Baine. I think our char is the dangerous one. He seems to be a complete idiot who does whatever he's told and is almost never blamed for the end result.

[Muajin76]

Pfft... Baine. I think our char is the dangerous one. He seems to be a complete idiot who does whatever he's told and is almost never blamed for the end result.

hmm..what if Baine was really N'zoth or some long lost titan that had his memory erased.

[Super Dickmann]

They're given room to breathe precisely because there's no faction imperative looming overhead, no "yo Zandalari, the Warchief wants you to do X, pls do or you're traitors", no "one Alliance race attacked an Horde race? Guess it's time for red and blue blobs to all kill each other for it". The faction war forces the story to have higher, more dramatic stakes which is where writing quality plummets, as you justly observe. It's why I'd much rather the factions be loose coalitions rather than an ironclad bond of lawful goodness/absolute dictatorship where one character drags everyone else into lolevil or noble savagery kicking and screaming.

I partly agree, if only because at this stage there's too many completely contradictory races in the factions that attempting to create even the semblance of a cohesive ethos is doomed for failure. Even now though, plots benefit from being part of the factions. Being dragged into conflicts you may not want to be can generate good plots and be handled decently. As said, while it exists basically entirely for meta reasons, the Mists blood elf plot had a good spin to it, as do the various Forsaken/Garrosh's Horde interactions. Even the Zandalari plot benefits from its broader context with the Horde.

As for Baine, while I think he's a completely lost cause, they could've emphasized two aspects. Have him question the efficacy of the plan (i.e that it's dumb as fuck) rather than its morality, because the latter is opening a can of worms he can't possibly look good in, and bringing up his Earthmother-related problems. He's still in a no-win scenario though, because since azerite has been such a small plot point and both sides use it pretty much immediately once they learn about it, it's unconvincing.

[Felixon]

Alliance posters, duh.




Did you get tired when constructing that monumental straw-man? Saurfang and Baine aren't called bootlickers of the Alliance just because they want peace. They get called that because they go out of their way to help the Alliance at the expense of their own faction. Paying attention to their story is hard, apparently. Thrall wanted peace with the Alliance. Vol'jin wanted peace with the Alliance. Neither get called bootlickers.

Would you look at that, turns out the one with "all or nothing thinking" here is actually you.

So much salt and toxicity - you know,playing undead in World of Warcraft really fits you. Baine and Saurfang are not helping the Alliance - they simply have an actual spine to do what they think is right,unlike the rest of soldiers,who blindly follow every command the Horde's "queen" orders them. And if you think,that nobody refers to Thrall as the ultimate bootlicker of the Alliance,I have to wonder if you even play this game. Such a useful input!

[Mehrunes]

So much salt and toxicity - you know,playing undead in World of Warcraft really fits you. Baine and Saurfang are not helping the Alliance - they simply have an actual spine to do what they think is right,unlike the rest of soldiers,who blindly follow every command the Horde's "queen" orders them. And if you think,that nobody refers to Thrall as the ultimate bootlicker of the Alliance,I have to wonder if you even play this game. Such a useful input!

Pointing out your ginormous logical fallacy constitutes neither toxicity nor salt. Sorry to disappoint you and your deflection here. And please... Saurfang saving Malfurion isn't him helping the Alliance? Saurfang deliberately not killing Anduin just because he hoped he'd kill Sylvanas for him isn't him helping the Alliance? Baine killing Horde soldiers to free the brother of an Alliance leader and then stealing a Horde ship to deliver him straight to said leader isn't him helping the Alliance? Riveting tale you got here.

Except it's false, those are explicit cases of them helping the Alliance and you trying to muddy the waters with "they are doing the right thing" changes nothing even if you were right, because doing the right thing (from Alliance's perspective) and helping the Alliance aren't mutually exclusive. You trying to force that false dichotomy is just you being deliberately dishonest in order to confuse people and give your argument more validity in light of the criticism you faced.

And since they are explicitly helping the Alliance, do explain how them helping the Alliance, at Horde's expense no less, constitutes doing the right thing as far as the Horde is concerned. And yes, I play this game. You trying to conjure a reality where Thrall faces more criticism on his stance about the Alliance than Baine who repeatedly gets called Anduin's toy is yet another fabrication of yours.

[melzas]

Sylvanas betrayed the Horde before Baine betrayed her diabolical orders - that is fact.

Sylvanas is the Warchief. She is THE horde...

[Aleksej89]

you can't make a good civil war story if you are not allowed to kill a ton of characters and even cause the death of factions.

take for example game of thrones which, while not brilliant, manages to do justice to the entire political and civil war process that happens when fighting for the throne/power.

If blizzard wanted to make a compelling story about internal strife, conflict and revolutions there have to be MAJOR consequences to the players/viewers.
Their favorite characters killed off (without ressurections) or severely maimed, entire factions erased or completely broken/enslaved etc etc.

Night Elves lost their capital tree and UD lost their undercity but that doesnt really inconvenience the player in any spectacular way (you can't visit that useless city, boohooo...).

If by the end of BFA players were no longer able to make Night Elven characters (since like 90% of NElves burned in teldrassil or got killed during that campaign) and the horde faction was split into literally 2 different factions that would actually be something notable.

But we all know that by end of BFA almost everything goes back to the default state just like it was a simpsons or family guy episode.
So without massive consequences to the player a civil war storyline is boring and uninteresting.

[Felixon]

Pointing out your ginormous logical fallacy constitutes neither toxicity nor salt. Sorry to disappoint you and your deflection here. And please... Saurfang saving Malfurion isn't him helping the Alliance? Saurfang deliberately not killing Anduin just because he hoped he'd kill Sylvanas for him isn't him helping the Alliance? Baine killing Horde soldiers to free the brother of an Alliance leader and then stealing a Horde ship to deliver him straight to said leader isn't him helping the Alliance? Riveting tale you got here.

Except it's false, those are explicit cases of them helping the Alliance and you trying to muddy the waters with "they are doing the right thing" changes nothing even if you were right, because doing the right thing (from Alliance's perspective) and helping the Alliance aren't mutually exclusive. You trying to force that false dichotomy is just you being deliberately dishonest in order to confuse people and give your argument more validity in light of the criticism you faced.

And since they are explicitly helping the Alliance, do explain how them helping the Alliance, at Horde's expense no less, constitutes doing the right thing as far as the Horde is concerned. And yes, I play this game. You trying to conjure a reality where Thrall faces more criticism on his stance about the Alliance than Baine who repeatedly gets called Anduin's toy is yet another fabrication of yours.

Eh,it's pointless to discuss something with an individual like you,who has only one truth and who is ready to go miles to prove it. Keep twisting every single event in your own favor - that doesn't prove your right.

[Verdugo]

Eh,it's pointless to discuss something with an individual like you,who has only one truth and who is ready to go miles to prove it. Keep twisting every single event in your own favor - that doesn't prove your right.

Its not like you even bothered to disprove it, propably because you cant which pisses you off.

[Felixon]

Its not like you even bothered to disprove it, propably because you cant which pisses you off.

There's nothing to disprove,I already stated what I see and how I see. I don't care if somebody,who pretends to sound ultimately smart and educated on forum and tries to call everyone, who disagrees with his views, idiots,without saying it out loud,is actually worth my time to get my reply. There are a few indivuals - demagogues - on this forum,who are the ultimate Horde advocates and who will do anything,to try to prove that a pile of shit is a chocolate. Well,you know,the fact,that somebody will say so even a hundred times won't prove it right. I'm not going to spend my time to prove one simple thing - all the events he described can be viewed in few ways. Unfortunately,blind fanatics will see only what they want to see.