Sylvanas's plan

[Grosbill]

Does Sylvanas even know that Calia is still "alive," for want of a better term? Knowledge of her recent resurrection seems pretty rare - Jaina is pretty high-placed in the Alliance leadership and even she's only heard rumors (and those may only be about Calia's actions during the "Before the Storm" and not her later raising into undeath). I think Sylvanas's more direct concern would be Kul Tiras itself, and the Proudmoore Admiralty leadership specifically.

Sylvanas seems to have some prety high ranking spies in Stormwind since she knows what happens there shortly after it does.

Of course this seems to evaporate whenever it suits the Alliance storyline (like the bombing of the Zandalari fleet and the subsequent attack on Dazar'Alor).

So my guess is some very high ranking High Elves are feeding her information

[Soon-TM]

I am attached to sylvanas course all three sisters are sexy

Meh. I'll just go with the (male) Void Elf /silly: "Alleria is my favourite Windrunner sister. Edgier than Vereesa, but slightly less homicidal than the dead one". The Windrunner trio is really getting on my nerves, especially the two older ones.

[Chonar]

Sylvanas has lost all hope. She died and saw the Shadowlands and is convinced that's all there is; just eternal darkness and despair after death, no pearly gates, no Gates of Valor for non-titanbound, no everlasting peace. Just blackness and cold and pain.

So she is in survival mode. She knows there is no hope, so she is determined to kill off all hope. To her, hope is folly and makes people make dumb decisions that only speeds them towards their demise.

Survival is everything. Everything else needs to make way for it. It's the only thing that counts for Sylvanas. Survive, survive, survive, and fear the grasp of the everlasting nothingness that comes if you fail. "There is no place for weakness in our ranks".

Survive, little Banshee queen. Survive, and run and flee, and fear. Kill off all hope so that others will join your efforts of survival, thus increasing your chances. Turn everyone into Forsaken so that they may 'live' forever. Survive. Survive. Survive.

[Pheraz]

...

In short, Sylvanas and her fanbois love to picture her as a mixture of Machiavelli and Napoleon with tits - but that's far from being true. Which brings me to the point: no, she simply doesn't have the brains to concoct such a plan.

Hahaha this is so hilarious and true! This so much! Made my day, and thank you sir!

[OpieOP]

Being resurrected in a setting with long-established necromancy isn't plot armor. Don't use terms you don't understand.

I love your passive aggression, say has someone peed in your milk lately?

[Aeula]

It’s obvious (Unless this is another ‘surprise’ where the ‘surprise’ doesn’t happen) that Derek is under her sway still. But I doubt she tried to protect Baine with her plan.

If anything she wanted to use it as an excuse to oust Baine in front of the rest of the Horde. She just underestimated the hold Human Potential has over them.

[Mehrunes]

I love your passive aggression, say has someone peed in your milk lately?

What's passive-aggressive in pointing out you don't know what plot armor is?

[Aeula]

What is Sylvanas hoping to achieve? Even if Derek murdered every Proudmoore, Jaina included, the Kul Tiran fleet, that is now Azeroth's mightiest, wouldn't just disappear into nothingness. What's more, motivated by the deaths of their leaders, the Kul Tirans would be pushed to fight even harder, like the Kaldorei, like the Gilneans, like the Zandalari most recently. Sylvanas' plan is inherently flawed, as usual.

Jaina is stronger than any fleet or army. Removing her will cripple the Alliance significantly. Not enough for the Horde to outright win, but enough to make a difference. Doesn’t matter how pissed the Lul Tirans get.

[Mehrunes]

It’s obvious (Unless this is another ‘surprise’ where the ‘surprise’ doesn’t happen) that Derek is under her sway still. But I doubt she tried to protect Baine with her plan.

If anything she wanted to use it as an excuse to oust Baine in front of the rest of the Horde. She just underestimated the hold Human Potential has over them.

Eh, doubtful. Derek is being sent away from Kul Tiras, likely to Calia. So at best he kills Calia, making the whole thing pointless (OK, now that I wrote this I can see such a thing appealing to Blizzard's "writers").

[OpieOP]

What's passive-aggressive in pointing out you don't know what plot armor is?

>conveniently appearing Valkyrs
>conveniently having the powers to restore destroyed undead
>conveniently siding with Sylvanas

The Valkyr literally became her plot armor.


Of course you're allowed to see it as "long-established" part of the story if it fits your cause, but that doesn't change what it in fact is.

-> She cheated death a couply of times out of conveniently appearing plot devices not because she had the powers to overcome them by herself. The literal definition of plot armor.

I mean lbsh its not as shameful as the even more obviously named plot armor they gave the gnome king but it is still so friggin bad.

[ashblond]

Of course she has no plan. She has no capable intelligence for any plan.

[Mehrunes]

>conveniently appearing Valkyrs
>conveniently having the powers to restore destroyed undead
>conveniently siding with Sylvanas

The Valkyr literally became her plot armor.

The Val'kyr "conveniently" appeared at the start of WotLK, long before they joined Sylvanas. And what destroyed undead? They merely resurrected Sylvanas after she was shot in the head or impaled on a spike. That's not exactly her getting destroyed. And there's nothing convenient about ex-Scourge members teaming up with other ex-Scourge members. It's just a logical outcome of Arthas' death.

Of course you're allowed to see it as "long-established" part of the story if it fits your cause, but that doesn't change what it in fact is.

And what it in fact is is nothing more than Sylvanas using a long-established aspect of the setting in a logical way. Which by default makes it not plot armor.

-> She cheated death a couply of times out of conveniently appearing plot devices not because she had the powers to overcome them by herself. The literal definition of plot armor.

She cheated death by necromancers using necromancy on her in a setting with necromancy. So you still have no clue what plot armor is.

[OpieOP]

The Val'kyr "conveniently" appeared at the start of WotLK, long before they joined Sylvanas. And what destroyed undead? They merely resurrected Sylvanas after she was shot in the head or impaled on a spike. That's not exactly her getting destroyed. And there's nothing convenient about ex-Scourge members teaming up with other ex-Scourge members. It's just a logical outcome of Arthas' death.

Thanks for enlightening me that the Valkyr were introduced in WotLK! I don't know why you brought that up, because it was clear that THAT wasn't what I meant, but them very conveniently seeking out Sylvanas in the aftermath of TFOTLK.

Jumping from Icecrown and landing on a Saronite Spike sure leaves her with more than a few scratches, but okay iirc in edge of the night, or what that piece of work was called, it was never stated how far she jumped into her death, so perhaps she wasn't totally ripped to pieces.

While I guess your last assumption isn't completly incorrect, it is still very convenient that they chose Sylvanas as their vessel. Especially since the Valkyr of WoTLK have previously chosen to serve the Lich King out of their own free will and continiued serving him with their will intact iirc. At least thats what the questlines in WoTLK implied.

And what it in fact is is nothing more than Sylvanas using a long-established aspect of the setting in a logical way. Which by default makes it not plot armor.

Oh is that so? 'Member Kel Thuzad? 'Member what it took to resurrect him? I guess not. And while Kel Thuzad infinitely is the better villain we must agree that Sylvanas at this point is at least as powerful as Kel was.

She cheated death by necromancers using necromancy on her in a setting with necromancy. So you still have no clue what plot armor is.

She hasn't survived any of the encounters you described because of her own powers but instead was saved by conveniently occuring new introduced plot points, which still fits the definition of plot armor.

And even If you disagree with me,which I know you will, my initial point towards the post I initially responded to still stands.

But please enlighten me what you define as plot armor.

[Verdugo]

Oh is that so? 'Member Kel Thuzad? 'Member what it took to resurrect him? I guess not. And while Kel Thuzad infinitely is the better villain we must agree that Sylvanas at this point is at least as powerful as Kel was.

Just crashing here to explain this one. Lich King didnt want Kel'Thuzad ressurected as a mere necromancer (which would be hard for Arthas to do anyway since he was new into this "necromancy" thing and Kel had his body ruined after spending his time in the grave (something that Blizzard seems to forgot can happen, if Derek is anything to go by)).
He wanted him ressurected as a powerful Lich as a reward for his service, and the only source of power close by was sunwell, which also allowed Lich King to weaken the resistance of the northern kingdoms even further.

[kaid]

Eh, doubtful. Derek is being sent away from Kul Tiras, likely to Calia. So at best he kills Calia, making the whole thing pointless (OK, now that I wrote this I can see such a thing appealing to Blizzard's "writers").

I have a hard time seeing derek as being a successful trojan horse because he flat tells jaina that is what sylvannas wanted to use him for. Jaina does not take him home she sends him away likely to calia but I just don't see how derek would be in any position for a very long time to strike at the proudmore family barring some really stupid writing. I derek seems to understand and accept that jaina really can't fully trust him and also understands why that is.

[Mehrunes]

Thanks for enlightening me that the Valkyr were introduced in WotLK! I don't know why you brought that up, because it was clear that THAT wasn't what I meant, but them very conveniently seeking out Sylvanas in the aftermath of TFOTLK.

Oh, please, spare me your misplaced snark. I already addressed how there's nothing convenient about ex-Scourge seeking other ex-Scourge (they weren't even the only ex-Scourge members to join the Forsaken in the same expansion) so there's absolutely nothing warranting your posturing here, nor is there anything that salvages your argument.

Jumping from Icecrown and landing on a Saronite Spike sure leaves her with more than a few scratches, but okay iirc in edge of the night, or what that piece of work was called, it was never stated how far she jumped into her death, so perhaps she wasn't totally ripped to pieces.

If you actually bothered to read edge of Night, it explicitly said that Sylvanas is so durable that she could have survived the fall alone if it was not for Saronite's magical properties. So yes, if she can survive such a fall in general, then she's not exactly prone to turning into a gory pile of meat.

While I guess your last assumption isn't completly incorrect, it is still very convenient that they chose Sylvanas as their vessel. Especially since the Valkyr of WoTLK have previously chosen to serve the Lich King out of their own free will and continiued serving him with their will intact iirc. At least thats what the questlines in WoTLK implied.

They chose to follow Arthas who was using them for more than fancy furniture as Bolvar did. So no shit they wanted to escape. And Sylvanas was the only one obsessed with the Lich King enough to climb Icecrown to confirm the aftermath of the battle and to choose that place as the spot of her suicide.

Oh is that so? 'Member Kel Thuzad? 'Member what it took to resurrect him? I guess not. And while Kel Thuzad infinitely is the better villain we must agree that Sylvanas at this point is at least as powerful as Kel was.

Being turned into a Lich required special circumstances? No way. Totally never happened to other Liches. Ah, wait, it did. Now, what did it take to resurrect him a second time? Oh, right, nothing really.

She hasn't survived any of the encounters you described because of her own powers but instead was saved by conveniently occuring new introduced plot points, which still fits the definition of plot armor.

Except she was resurrected by Vak'kyr and Val'kyr were still introduced a year before she was resurrected by them. And that's in-story. Out of story Val'kyr were introduced over two years prior to that. Necromancy has been introduced even longer before that. And you stomping your foot here won't change any of that. Throwing the word "convenient" around isn't an argument.

And even If you disagree with me,which I know you will, my initial point towards the post I initially responded to still stands.

But your initial point in this thread was you proclaiming Sylvanas has plot armor...

But please enlighten me what you define as plot armor.

I already did.

I have a hard time seeing derek as being a successful trojan horse because he flat tells jaina that is what sylvannas wanted to use him for. Jaina does not take him home she sends him away likely to calia but I just don't see how derek would be in any position for a very long time to strike at the proudmore family barring some really stupid writing. I derek seems to understand and accept that jaina really can't fully trust him and also understands why that is.

I know. But the fact that this makes no sense is precisely why this plot would seem appealing to Blizzard's writing team.

[Niroshi]

You guys are going to be severely disappointed if you think Blizzard has some grand clever plan written for her. Blizzard is probably blowing raspberries biding time for the Sylvanas part of the expansion to kick off in 8.3 where she'll serve as the Gul'dan bridge to the Shadowlands expansion after being thrown out of the Horde by Thrall and co.

[Zappidoo]

I'm starting to think the real assassination target is Calia and never was a Proudmoore.

Seriously I can even see it now, he meets Calia, stabs her 5 times in the gut, and then mutters. "The Banshee Queen sends her regards."

I'm with you on this one. Her existence is a greater threat to the Horde than most realize.

Also considering both side have lots of spies, its very unlikely Sylvanas does not know of Calia's existence. The fact that not only shes "alive" but an undead that she has zero control/ties to makes her extremely dangerous to Sylvanas and The Forsaken. The Horde could lose an entire faction to Calia.

[Seylene]

Shes just going to toddle along until Blizz finds the route they think is correct to pull her out of this hole. To be fair I don't think this is all about a misuse of Sylvanas but I think Blizz really expected something different from their playerbase in response to the Teldrassil/Undercity nonsense and they are on their heels storywise so I really don't think we will get answers just more of a WoD ending sort of thing over N'zoths corpse as they then explain it in a book/short story later.

[OpieOP]

Oh, please, spare me your misplaced snark.

I don't think it was misplaced, you knew perfectly well what I meant. The snarks later down the line, yeah they weren't needed.

But your initial point in this thread was you proclaiming Sylvanas has plot armor...

My Initial point was that she has as much plot armor as some of the Alliance Leaders if we measure it by the statement that HCM posted.

I already did.

No, you have not. But I won't push you, lets just agree that we disagree.

Just crashing here to explain this one. Lich King didnt want Kel'Thuzad ressurected as a mere necromancer (which would be hard for Arthas to do anyway since he was new into this "necromancy" thing and Kel had his body ruined after spending his time in the grave (something that Blizzard seems to forgot can happen, if Derek is anything to go by)).
He wanted him ressurected as a powerful Lich as a reward for his service, and the only source of power close by was sunwell, which also allowed Lich King to weaken the resistance of the northern kingdoms even further.

Yeah makes sense, still they only just made it seem like powerful individuals need some extra juice to be resurrected, don't know if they changed that in some later depictions of how necromancy works in the warcraft universe. Still it would've made more sense if they required more than just a sacrifice of some Valkyr to resurrect the Banshee Queen, especially since she's depicted so much more powerful than other Banshees.