Preach on the broken gear treadmill

[Toppy]

Oh look is Preach parroting already popular opinions again.

[Gaidax]

This is a joke right? Mythic Jaina for example, early in prog you wanted to push dps and phase before the 3rd ring. Eventually you got enough gear to comfortably push without it, but this was after multiple 40 wipe nights.

Phasing at the right time has a large effect on progression. It was the same for phasing early on stormwall boats and trying to skip a set of bombs on Mekka.

If you think that you never pot on pull on prog, that there are no situations for it, you're not in an actual mythic guild, let alone a good mythic guild.

You need to get to that point first. Mythic Jaina or Mekk progress first 20-30 pulls you don’t need to pot because you wipe long before the actual pushing phase is a thing.

After that when your P1 is solid you start potting, yes at that point it starts to cost, but heck it’s top difficulty final boss there and second hardest as well, so yeah - you go that extra mile.

For example we have just started Jaina and potting or runing is useless at the point we are because our P1 is not solid yet and we wipe to shit unrelated to DPS checks at all.

[Emerald Archer]

If you have to twist somebody's words around to win an argument than you didn't have one to begin with. I never said never of course there will be niche situations that call for a pot so you can push through, but you (or one of you) made the claim that you are shelling out 40-50 pots per night every night when that just shouldn't be true.

I mean, you wanna talk about what good guilds were doing right? Good guilds were on Jaina real fast, most of this tier was potting 40 times a night, because Jaina was most of this tier.

Now if we're talking about monkey guilds who are like 5/9 or 6/9 now, then 100% that's a load of crap that they need to pot 40 times a night. They're just being dumb with them.

[Ishayu]

Method did retarded things to win world first you can't sit there and try to use them as some sort of measurement of how you pay lol. I again ask why you are wasting runes and pots on any pull other than a potential kill pull? If you aren't racing for world/region/server first kill then it is beyond silly to spam pots and runes when you are consistently wiping @80% on a new boss.

This is very true, but you should definitely use flasks either way. Flasks are always helpful because they don't go away when you die.

Flasks alone cost ~1500g a pop. For a 3 hour raid night, you're going to want 3 of them. That's 4500g already. During the night, you'll probably come upon a situation where a boss almost but not quite died, and you're going to have a few wipes on that. Say you do 6 such pulls in a night (and that's setting it very low) that's 12 pots at 300g a piece, that's 3600g. Now we've arrived at 8100g.

When you reach progress, you're probably going to want to get a Vantus rune up. The Vantus rune lasts the entire raid night plus subsequent raid nights in the same week. Each costs 2000g. Now add food for almost every wipe and we're pretty much at 10k a night. So there.

[KaPe]

Not every guild boosts though, right? Especially casual mythic guilds.

There's some really weird disconnect between people who do boost and everyone else, with the former believing that there is soooo many of them, it's so easy and even "average mythic guilds" (which must be 8/9M I guess?) do it. I don't know if Blizzard bought into this narrative as well, but the fact that they didn't nerf potion requirements yet is absurd. Legion already had Blood of Sargeras vendor at that point, not to mention much Prolonger Power potions which were much cheaper. BFA? They gave us cheaper food, which is something, I guess, but that was never anywhere near as expensive as potions.

I can only imagine someone looking up Mythic raiding for the first time, reading up about "pre-potting" and then checking prices while thinking "I'm supposed to spend this much money on a single pull? And the way I'm supposed to pay for it is by doing Heroic, except with multiple people who literally do nothing? This is so stupid." Yeah, sure, 'not every pull', but still. It's really bizarre, and that's not even getting into repair costs, Azerite respecing *and* hugely reduced gold influx with mission table nerfs.

[Mayia]

For those willing to talk about this issue there might be solutions but one many people don't like is taking gear away from people who don't need it.
Having everyone running around with 400 item level hasn't made the game more fun but created an issue for players that didn't exist.. while previously before easy gear it was a goal and driving force to have people raid to gear up.

Those unwilling to work don't get gear its very easy and i'd say soloable content should only give LFR level gear and titanforge should stop just shy of heroic item level, with it more often procing gem slots, and having a way to give your gear gem slots with dungeon materials, its a shame those who would barely be effected by these types of changes fight the hardest just like the masterloot change.

Hopefully Blizzard clues in, that they really only need to provide low skill players with freebies every once and a while to keep them happy and listen to the players who want the best for the game, not just the best for their characters.. i don't think anyone loved farming gruuls every week and hoping it'd drop.. but it was better than everything being so easy to obtain its pointless, by miles.

[Chillside]

titanforge should stop

no further elaboration required

[Gaidax]

There's some really weird disconnect between people who do boost and everyone else, with the former believing that there is soooo many of them, it's so easy and even "average mythic guilds" (which must be 8/9M I guess?) do it. I don't know if Blizzard bought into this narrative as well, but the fact that they didn't nerf potion requirements yet is absurd. Legion already had Blood of Sargeras vendor at that point, not to mention much Prolonger Power potions which were much cheaper. BFA? They gave us cheaper food, which is something, I guess, but that was never anywhere near as expensive as potions.

I can only imagine someone looking up Mythic raiding for the first time, reading up about "pre-potting" and then checking prices while thinking "I'm supposed to spend this much money on a single pull? And the way I'm supposed to pay for it is by doing Heroic, except with multiple people who literally do nothing? This is so stupid." Yeah, sure, 'not every pull', but still. It's really bizarre, and that's not even getting into repair costs, Azerite respecing *and* hugely reduced gold influx with mission table nerfs.

This is up to you. For example I’m 8/9M now and we raid only 2 days a week, I find the costs (which are mostly covered by guild anyway) to be more than worth it because I get to play most challenging content with mount and title reward and get best gear as well that would require grinding my ass off in M+ for praying for luck otherwise.

More than worth the trivial gold spent.

People put Mythic raiding on some crazy piedestal where in reality it’s about the most efficient and least time consuming way to get a lot of stuff ingame. Our guild clears mythic raids for years raiding 2 days a week, 3 hours a day. That’s it, I don’t need to waste my time in M+ or WQs or praying for TF, because I get best gear as is, guaranteed at that.

[Chillside]

I don’t need to waste my time in M+ or WQs or praying for TF, because I get best gear as is, guaranteed at that.

Flat out bullshit, not even trolling.

[Gaidax]

For those willing to talk about this issue there might be solutions but one many people don't like is taking gear away from people who don't need it.
Having everyone running around with 400 item level hasn't made the game more fun but created an issue for players that didn't exist.. while previously before easy gear it was a goal and driving force to have people raid to gear up.

Those unwilling to work don't get gear its very easy and i'd say soloable content should only give LFR level gear and titanforge should stop just shy of heroic item level, with it more often procing gem slots, and having a way to give your gear gem slots with dungeon materials, its a shame those who would barely be effected by these types of changes fight the hardest just like the masterloot change.

Hopefully Blizzard clues in, that they really only need to provide low skill players with freebies every once and a while to keep them happy and listen to the players who want the best for the game, not just the best for their characters.. i don't think anyone loved farming gruuls every week and hoping it'd drop.. but it was better than everything being so easy to obtain its pointless, by miles.

And what is your issue that “low skilled plebs” get a bunch of ilvl 385-400 gear and very occasional TF they may not even get?

Like it totally does not hurt me that by the end of BoD people who do not raid mythic will get to gear level I have now, because at that point 8.2 raid will launch anyway.

[Mighty Tim]

And what is your issue that “low skilled plebs” get a bunch of ilvl 385-400 gear and very occasional TF they may not even get?

Like it totally does not hurt me that by the end of BoD people who do not raid mythic will get to gear level I have now, because at that point 8.2 raid will launch anyway.

I don't know I kind of miss just looking at peoples gear to make groups and not be totally stone walled on alts till I run with guildies.

[Gaidax]

Flat out bullshit, not even trolling.

No its not, Mythic raiding guarantees gear flat out. You WILL get what you want, it’s as simple as that. I wanted Crest of Paku - I got it. I wanted Signet and Cloak from Zandalari set - I got it all ilvl 415+. I wanted ilvl 415 weapon and offhand? Sure thing - it drops at that ilvl from multiple sources in Mythic raid, no praying for TF and no bull.

You know what exactly drops from every boss and you will get it because of guild loot. It’s not your eepteenth run with some bunch of randoms in M+ for random crap you barely have control over.

I literally spent shitton more time total to try and get ilvl 400 mage fuse from M+ and I did not get it, where as mythic raiding gear - I simply got it no hassle and it took less time than all the time spent not getting that trinket. I can only bloody imagine how much time I would need to spend in M+ to get gear I have now... holy crap...

Mythic raiding flat out guarantees you will have premium gear you want and faster than any other activity ingame.

[Chillside]

No its not, Mythic raiding guarantees gear flat out. You WILL get what you want, it’s as simple as that. I wanted Crest of Paku - I got it. I wanted Signet and Cloak from Zandalari set - I got it.

You know what exactly drops from every boss and you will get it because of guild loot. It’s not your eepteenth run with some bunch of randoms in M+ for random crap you barely have control over.

Nope.

You do NOT get what you want unless you get lucky and you only have 1 try per week ( maybe 2 if you coin it ), whereas you can go farm m+ untill you throw up, for the potentially better item, which heavily involves in your words "praying for titanforge"
If your class gives you enough luxury to not care about m+ drops and everything your character requires for the optimized performance is being dropped within BoD - good for you, honestly, but for most classes it's not the case.
As soon as BoD hit and ilvl bumped up by 30 i went and did about 25 shrine +10-15 runs to get my 400+ conch ( trinket ), finally got it, flat 400, instead of being satisfied, my first reaction was FUCK THIS SHIT SYSTEM, you know why? because it could have been 425 with potential 40 stat of my choice ( Sounds like a personal problem? maybe )
That trinket is just one example out of literally 7 or 8 slot pieces, got 425 bracers from first boss - UTTER GARBAGE, insta disenchanted because 415 tf bracers from Atal'Dazar was better, got 420 waist from opulence - insta disenchanted because 400 one from freehold with gem slot gives me more benefit.
What do you mean?? It's a shit system, made for spoonfeeding casuals which rewards people based on nothing, but pure luck
And we don't even have original reforging in the game, why would you even consider to advocate this dogshit system

[kamuimac]

For those willing to talk about this issue there might be solutions but one many people don't like is taking gear away from people who don't need it.
Having everyone running around with 400 item level hasn't made the game more fun but created an issue for players that didn't exist.. while previously before easy gear it was a goal and driving force to have people raid to gear up.

Those unwilling to work don't get gear its very easy and i'd say soloable content should only give LFR level gear and titanforge should stop just shy of heroic item level, with it more often procing gem slots, and having a way to give your gear gem slots with dungeon materials, its a shame those who would barely be effected by these types of changes fight the hardest just like the masterloot change.

Hopefully Blizzard clues in, that they really only need to provide low skill players with freebies every once and a while to keep them happy and listen to the players who want the best for the game, not just the best for their characters.. i don't think anyone loved farming gruuls every week and hoping it'd drop.. but it was better than everything being so easy to obtain its pointless, by miles.

thats bs though . show this "everyone" - unless someone does mythic 10+ and hc raids he is not 400 itlv.

its one of biggest lies that just because you have 1 piece every 3 weeks from WF , chance of some gear from WB and 1 item from dungeon events every 10 weeks and then suddenly "everybody " is 400 itlv ? stop with this nonsense.

as casual altoholic i have multiple toons and all of them are hitting softcaps between 383-385 because thats the itlv where your only ipgrades come from this limited sources. highest toon of mine is 389 and its only because it was extremly lucky with WB drops (including 425 piece from WB and 415 from WF).

i honestly wonder where you have those "casual lfr heroes" in full 400 itlv gear.

[Gaidax]

Nope.

You do NOT get what you want unless you get lucky and you only have 1 try per week ( maybe 2 if you coin in ), whereas you can go farm m+ for the potentially better item, which heavily involves in your words "praying for titanforge"
If your class gives you enough luxury to not care about m+ drops and everything your character requires for the optimized performance is being dropped within BoD - good for you, honestly, but for most classes it's not the case.
As soon as BoD hit and ilvl bumped up by 30 i went and did about 25 shrine +10-15 runs to get my 400+ conch ( trinket ), finally got it, flat 400, instead of being satisfied, my first reaction was FUCK THIS SHIT SYSTEM, you know why? because it could have been 425 with potential 40 stat of my choice ( Sounds like a personal problem? maybe )
That trinket is just one example out of literally 7 or 8 slot pieces, got 425 bracers from first boss - UTTER GARBAGE, insta disenchanted because 415 tf bracers from Atal'Dazar was better, got 420 waist from opulence - insta disenchanted because 400 one from freehold with gem slot gives me more benefit.
What do you mean?? It's a shit system, made for spoonfeeding casuals which rewards people based on nothing, but pure luck

I don’t need to get “lucky”, I don’t have “1 try per week” I have 6 tries per week per boss, because item I want can be one of 5-6 items that drop to other players in my guild who either do not need it or needs it less than me, that in addition to coin.

That’s how I literally have everything I want already literally. You can be mad about it all you want, but this is the reality that repeats itself every tier - I effectively get fully geared in about 2 months.

And thus on contrary, I need to be totally unlucky to NOT get what I want. It happens, but it’s rare.

Heck, for items like weapons (which are damn critical) I have good 20 tries per week effectively simply because multiple bosses drop 415 weapons. M+ is not even bloody close to these odds.

[Chillside]

I don’t need to get “lucky”, I don’t have “1 try per week” I have 6 tries per week per boss, because item I want can be one of 5-6 items that drop to other players in my guild who either do not need it or needs it less than me, that in addition to coin.

That’s how I literally have everything I want already literally. You can be mad about it all you want, but this is the reality that repeats itself every tier - I effectively get fully geared in about 2 months.

And thus on contrary, I need to be totally unlucky to NOT get what I want. It happens, but it’s rare.

You raid mythic - I raid mythic, you have everything you want - I'm nowhere close from having even half of the stuff i want, again, good for you, but what do you think the conclusion is? What do you think luck means, like honestly, give me an answer what do you think the definition of luck is

[kamuimac]

I mean, you wanna talk about what good guilds were doing right? Good guilds were on Jaina real fast, most of this tier was potting 40 times a night, because Jaina was most of this tier.

Now if we're talking about monkey guilds who are like 5/9 or 6/9 now, then 100% that's a load of crap that they need to pot 40 times a night. They're just being dumb with them.

i love how you claim that that world top 100 guilds that killed jaina are the only good guilds in game

while world top 1000 are "monkey guilds"

then what about world 3000 which are till waaaaay above average player who doesnt even raid.

why should anyone listen to people who are clearly living in a bubble and refuse to see how true average wow gamer players.

[Ishayu]

Yea of course you always flask and food, and that is a good point I hadn't really taken into consideration how expensive flasks are these days, that's an easy 4-5k right off the bat. Vantus runes are also a good point you will be using at least one of those per week, then taking food into account if your guild doesn't supply feasts (or your spec doesn't like them).

Blizzard have actually made the whole thing rather difficult in a sense, because not only is it better to use feasts (you literally get more stats), but on top of that it's also significantly cheaper to use couldrons as opposed to not using them.

What we've done is said that every player must bring at least 2 flasks to every 3 hour raid, and then trade those flasks to alchemists. The alchemist then makes couldrons. We plop down a couldron and everyone takes a sip and as many as possible take another flask, and then we raid, and then we place down another after an hour and everyone picks up another one, and those who didn't pick up one before pick up yet another. Everyone gets 3 flasks (so 60 in total) for the price of 24, but we've actually paid the alchemist 40 flasks, and he gets to sell the rest on the AH as a thanks for his service (and expulsom and hydrocore). Which alchemist gets the honor goes on a rotation, but most are eager, cause it's actually quite profitable.

This system requires an insane amount of goodwill and just good behaviour from the raid, and I am simultaneously shocked, happy, and hysterically laughing every time I see my guild line up 5 minutes before raid or during the break like they're in a super market queue, taking from the couldron in turn (it's become a meme in the guild) as they walk along the queue, with only occational swapblasting xD

So yeah you can use methods to reduce the cost below 10k, but not that much to be honest, and it requires some peculiar culture in the guild. xD

[Qnubi]

Doesn't even make any sense, the hardest possible content is m+ (infinite scaling), as such you should be able to get the best possible gear from it. The proposed "better" item progression would make dungeons a mediocre endgame with a mode (high-end keys) that is exclusive to raiders, raiders already have mythic raids as a challenge.

[Emerald Archer]

i love how you claim that that world top 100 guilds that killed jaina are the only good guilds in game

while world top 1000 are "monkey guilds"

then what about world 3000 which are till waaaaay above average player who doesnt even raid.

why should anyone listen to people who are clearly living in a bubble and refuse to see how true average wow gamer players.

I'm not talking about average though. I'm sorry that the fact I don't consider 6/9M players who nearly all can't even follow their simple rotation or pre-learn the fights in a tier where only 1 boss was hard, to be good players.

You overestimate how "good" players have to be to be in a 6/9M guild right now, or you're just one of those players and are highly offended that players who do higher content don't consider you that good.