Preach on the broken gear treadmill

[potis]

That's your own personal experience. Out of my giant group of WoW friends, i know 1 irl who has no interest in classic and about 5-10 in game that don't either. That leaves about 50+ of us (10 irl and 30+ guildies at least, maybe more) who have openly stated "I can't wait for classic instead of BFA".

It may not be as popular as i think, but you dismissing it as nothing is a equally unlikely. Everyone i know interested in classic is 35+ years old and experienced it so we KNOW what we want. many of them, went back to older games like EQ rather than play BFA.

So while your experience may be of "nah" mine is the opposite.

So, again i ask, how will YOU Handle it if WOW classic cannibalizes BFA's remaining player base? Will you concede defeat and go to classic, or just keep on in BFA with a dwindling population?

Yeah, and you have how many hours to play exactly? Do you really expect your "35 guildies" to play a few hours per week to level in classic?

You are gonna play 2 weeks, reach level 20 and then pop back to the active expansion as the majority, you are literally the prime example of nostalgia.

Now, playing WoW Classic as a downtime between raids? I can accept that, playing only WoW Classic, then ye, good luck.

Its irrelevant to me if WoW classic exists, i did everything there was to do when it was relevant, its a dead game for me, i want new raids, new bosses, i couldnt give a rats ass about old content.

If WoW empties out then i will just go to the other games i play, Dota, PoE and whatever new might catch my interest.

[justandulas]

Yeah, and you have how many hours to play exactly? Do you really expect your "35 guildies" to play a few hours per week to level in classic?

You are gonna play 2 weeks, reach level 20 and then pop back to the active expansion as the majority, you are literally the prime example of nostalgia.

Now, playing WoW Classic as a downtime between raids? I can accept that, playing only WoW Classic, then ye, good luck.

Its irrelevant to me if WoW classic exists, i did everything there was to do when it was relevant, its a dead game for me, i want new raids, new bosses, i couldnt give a rats ass about old content.

If WoW empties out then i will just go to the other games i play, Dota, PoE and whatever new might catch my interest.

I have as much time to play as i want.

I appreciate your answer though.

That said, i can't wait for it and i remember it vividly as an older player, and it wasn't ANYTHING. I grew up on MMO's that were MUDs or EQ, where you could lose your gear and character that had 1000x more work than any vanilla wow player. Vanilla WOW was always a cake walk leveling even back then, but i enjoy the RPG mechanics of the game that is so sorely lacking from BFA.

How you feel about Classic is how i feel about BFA currently. I don't enjoy where the game is going with more ARPG than MMORPG mechanics existing in game today. It's more diablo 3 than EQ1, and i prefer the older style of MMO tbh.

To each their own, though. We can't wait for classic WoW, and the endgame is half the appeal. With a good RPG there's a beginning, a middle, and an end point. You'll actually have that gear end point in classic where your character can be complete, more or less.

You'll never have that feeling in current WoW because the treadmill is meant to always keep you going full speed, but the irony is it means a LOT less to me than the older gear and triumphs.

[Akka]

I dont base skill level on statistics.

So I agree that if you’re dying to the same mechanics 20 times in a row (which a lot of “mythic raiders” do) then you’re pretty bad. If 99% of the playerbase do that then they are bad players.

Then you're wrong, because "bad" has no meaning outside an average. Which was the point I was making.

If I tell you "someone running 100 m in 9,9 s is not fast", and you point to me that's actually very fast for a human and I answer "well, I don't base speed level on statistics, for me if you can't run the 100 in less than 9,7 you're slow and if you take more than 10 s you're a crippled grandma", am I right in my definition or am I a fucking idiot who is just trying to posture ?

Also, a man measuring 2,10 m is not tall, a man weighting 500 Kg is not fat and a man benchpressing 250 Kg is not strong. Don't give me statistics, I'm a badass who is above that.

[Gaidax]

So, again i ask, how will YOU Handle it if WOW classic cannibalizes BFA's remaining player base? Will you concede defeat and go to classic, or just keep on in BFA with a dwindling population?

How will you handle alien invaders bombarding your city with lasers from flying saucers, HOW?

Because that shit is about equal in chances of happening as Classic cannibalizing live is.

But hey let's put their resolve to the test. Level 20 challenge!

[justandulas]

How will you handle alien invaders bombarding your city with lasers from flying saucers, HOW?

Because that shit is about equal in chances of happening as Classic cannibalizing live is.

But hey let's put their resolve to the test. Level 20 challenge!

Yawn. Wow classic leveling was always a walk in the park. I cut my teeth on older MMO's where it took MONTHS to level up a single time, and it had permadeath and full looting.

WoW classic is easy and relaxing to level up in.

And go ahead and keep dismissing classic WoW. i can't wait to see reactions when it's bigger than anticipated

[potis]

Then you're wrong, because "bad" has no meaning outside an average. Which was the point I was making.

If I tell you "someone running 100 m in 9,9 s is not fast", and you point to me that's actually very fast for a human and I answer "well, I don't base speed level on statistics, for me if you can't run the 100 in less than 9,7 you're slow and if you take more than 10 s you're a crippled grandma", am I right in my definition or am I a fucking idiot who is just trying to posture ?

Also, a man measuring 2,10 m is not tall, a man weighting 500 Kg is not fat and a man benchpressing 250 Kg is not strong. Don't give me statistics, I'm a badass who is above that.

Yeah, but purposefully doing retarded math comparisons doesnt compare to WoW skill level statistics, because in your example you have 2 variables.

WoW skill level has how many variables? DPS, Minimal Damage Taken, Interrupting, Offhealing at downtime,Cooldown tracking of other players to not fuck up and use yours, and lots more things.

95% of WoW players cant do 4 things at the same time, and 99% of WoW players cant do 3 things at the same time.

Which is why 99% of WoW players are terrible.

[Gaidax]

Yawn. Wow classic leveling was always a walk in the park. I cut my teeth on older MMO's where it took MONTHS to level up a single time, and it had permadeath and full looting.

WoW classic is easy and relaxing to level up in.

And go ahead and keep dismissing classic WoW. i can't wait to see reactions when it's bigger than anticipated

Exactly, leveling was a yawn fest as much of Vanilla was. That's the essence of level 20 challenge, who will live through the boredom of it after the novelty wears off.

I also can't wait for classic, exactly to have this bull about how it will kill BfA stop once and for all.

[justandulas]

Exactly, leveling was a yawn fest as much of Vanilla was. That's the essence of level 20 challenge, who will live through the boredom of it after the novelty wears off.

I also can't wait for classic, exactly to have this bull about how it will kill BfA stop once and for all.

Not only will i do level 20 blindfolded, but i'll do it as a prot warrior. I know what i'm getting into, and it is absolutely nothing. To me, i'd take the slower leveling and pace of the game as it was a real MMORPG vs today's faster paced, insta gratification MMO-ARPG that is more Diablo 3 than EQ1. I liked the older EQ1 inspired WoW, not Diablo 3 the MMO edition season X.

I also like how you didn't even answer my question, and rather just dismissed it because you can't foresee something happening outside of your bubble. IF classic beats up on BFA, will you be more resentful towards it and it's playerbase, or will you just be happier to be playing BFA without the classic crowd?

[Gaidax]

I don't need to waste my time thinking about something that simply won't happen.

End of story. But hey, you did produce a chuckle here, so your efforts are not in vain.

[Malix Farwin]

There are smarter people than him. You should not listen any idiot that is on you tube. His name fits his story - Preaching nostalgic bullshit that no one wants except nostalgic players. Luckily, not everyone is nostalgic.

A bit confused, are you suggesting he is wrong because you haven't put forth a counter argument if thats the case. My guess is you are mindlessly bashing him because he makes videos on youtube?

[Softbottom]

Yeah, and you have how many hours to play exactly? Do you really expect your "35 guildies" to play a few hours per week to level in classic?

You are gonna play 2 weeks, reach level 20 and then pop back to the active expansion as the majority, you are literally the prime example of nostalgia.

Now, playing WoW Classic as a downtime between raids? I can accept that, playing only WoW Classic, then ye, good luck.

Its irrelevant to me if WoW classic exists, i did everything there was to do when it was relevant, its a dead game for me, i want new raids, new bosses, i couldnt give a rats ass about old content.

If WoW empties out then i will just go to the other games i play, Dota, PoE and whatever new might catch my interest.

Why does everyone think wow vanilla leveling is atrociously slow? I've played since original beta and I never found vanilla leveling slow. I came from Everquest; That was slow. Vanilla wow leveling speed was not slow as far as I'm concerned. When I decided to level a priest in vanilla (roughly 3-4 months after launch) I managed to level that character from 1-60 in about 2 months of casual play.

Now imagine in someone who has leveled 30+ alts (personally I would never do this); They have the zones down to a T in terms of leveling. It is not going to take players months to level. Expect to see players at level 60 at the end of the first week.

[crusadernero]

Exactly, leveling was a yawn fest as much of Vanilla was. That's the essence of level 20 challenge, who will live through the boredom of it after the novelty wears off.

I also can't wait for classic, exactly to have this bull about how it will kill BfA stop once and for all.

yeah, unless you are a lore & story freak(Like me), leveling might be a long snorefest in classic. I have fond memories of classic, but I also remember very well how slow it often was in many ways.

Personally im going to take my time and complete every zone. Enjoy each and every one of them.

[potis]

Why does everyone think wow vanilla leveling is atrociously slow? I've played since original beta and I never found vanilla leveling slow. I came from Everquest; That was slow. Vanilla wow leveling speed was not slow as far as I'm concerned. When I decided to level a priest in vanilla (roughly 3-4 months after launch) I managed to level that character from 1-60 in about 2 months of casual play.

Now imagine in someone who has leveled 30+ alts (personally I would never do this); They have the zones down to a T in terms of leveling. It is not going to take players months to level. Expect to see players at level 60 at the end of the first week.

Because for the standards of WoW the last 10 years, Vanilla leveling is slow.

Its not slow because its hard, its slow because its designed to be, its 60 levels spread out in how many areas? 30?40? I havent counted.

There are also dead questing periods in between which if you dont know you end up having to run to some area across the map, which in Vanilla times, that was 1 hour of walking/flying etc.

While , especially after TBC, the whole amount of areas, only 10 levels, and quests grouped up into clusters, then you get faster leveling.

But thats also because WoW is all about endgame, and Blizzard focused on that for a reason, therefor.

[crusadernero]

Why does everyone think wow vanilla leveling is atrociously slow? I've played since original beta and I never found vanilla leveling slow. I came from Everquest; That was slow. Vanilla wow leveling speed was not slow as far as I'm concerned. When I decided to level a priest in vanilla (roughly 3-4 months after launch) I managed to level that character from 1-60 in about 2 months of casual play.

Now imagine in someone who has leveled 30+ alts (personally I would never do this); They have the zones down to a T in terms of leveling. It is not going to take players months to level. Expect to see players at level 60 at the end of the first week.

I think alot of people think classic leveling is slow cause they dont have any other MMO to compare it to, from that time and age. Many wow players had never touched a MMO before, wow was the first. So when looking back on all the xpacs all the way to classic, yeah its slow.

Compared to other MMOs? No ofc not.

[Kaver]

Then you're wrong, because "bad" has no meaning outside an average. Which was the point I was making.

If I tell you "someone running 100 m in 9,9 s is not fast", and you point to me that's actually very fast for a human and I answer "well, I don't base speed level on statistics, for me if you can't run the 100 in less than 9,7 you're slow and if you take more than 10 s you're a crippled grandma", am I right in my definition or am I a fucking idiot who is just trying to posture ?

Also, a man measuring 2,10 m is not tall, a man weighting 500 Kg is not fat and a man benchpressing 250 Kg is not strong. Don't give me statistics, I'm a badass who is above that.

Haha yeah and it is not stupid to jump in front of a bus if statistically everyone else also do it xD

On a serious note, if you stand in fire 20 times in a row I think you’re bad. No statistics will change that.

[Alvito]

And why are you potting on progression pulls? Normally you only begin to pot when the kill is actually in sight (aka not wiping @80% constantly). Wiping at that point is almost always due to mechanics failures and not the lack of 1-3% extra raid dps. Good mythic guilds will know this so I do not accept that point either.

Well there are plenty of nights like https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wbG3ZaBqcxfKVP1H Even if you didn't wipe on a single fight you are still looking at 18 a night in BoD.

[Akka]

Yeah, but purposefully doing retarded math comparisons doesnt compare to WoW skill level statistics

It's not "retarded math comparisons", it's not even math in fact it's just actually the exact same thing : comparing extreme outlier with average. I'm applying your own reasoning, the fact you call it "retarded" is basically you saying that I'm right. Thanks, I guess ?

, because in your example you have 2 variables.

WoW skill level has how many variables? DPS, Minimal Damage Taken, Interrupting, Offhealing at downtime,Cooldown tracking of other players to not fuck up and use yours, and lots more things.

95% of WoW players cant do 4 things at the same time, and 99% of WoW players cant do 3 things at the same time.

Which is why 99% of WoW players are terrible.

All this is just you making up BS to cover the fact that your argument is wrong. You just pull "variables" out of your ass as if they were relevant. I can also claim that to benchpress you need four variables (strength of left arm, strength of right arm, ability to breath and stability).

That's completely irrelevant. The relevant part : how many humans can manage it ? THAT's the average, and THAT is what determines if it's "hard" or "easy".

Haha yeah and it is not stupid to jump in front of a bus if statistically everyone else also do it xD

Wake me up when it actually happens (that "everyone jumps in the front of a bus").
Your argument is "well, if we take something that doesn't happen, it proves wrong your argument based on what actually happen". No shit Sherlock. If we invent a new mankind average speed based on people running at Mach 1, then yeah people running the 100 m in 9,8 s would be very slow. Who would have guessed ?

On a serious note, if you stand in fire 20 times in a row I think you’re bad. No statistics will change that.

If people in the top 1 % ends up standing in fire, maybe the context in which it happens means it's then actually difficult. Between statistics on one side and people boasting on the other, I know what is closer to reality and what is just full of shit.

[potis]

snip

I am not sure exactly what you trying to convey.

How is my argument wrong when skill of a player cant be defined by 2 variables when multiple exist?

You just sound like the average player that got butthurt some point in life about his skill level so you use the word "Average" instead of accepting that you are bad.

Only the fact you are telling me "I am making up bullshit" about the variables of skill level, shows me exactly that.

Its the same when i pug a simple Mythic when i am bored and i have 15mins to spare before i head out of the house.

Join some random group to help, 0 interrupts, they are wearing 395 but they are doing 8k DPS when you can do 13K by slamming your face on the keyboard.

They are in the 99% that cant even do 2 things, at least the healer is doing 1 thing correctly because those type of bads cant even dodge mechanics.

[Soluna]

I watched his video yesterday and quit a few weeks back mostly for that reason. There’s less incentive to mythic raid than ever considering heroic gear Wf/tf, word bosses, m+, etc have all rendered mythic raiding pretty much useless.

On top of that, the gear treadmill has never meant less. Can anyone honestly name a single piece of gear this expac, what it’s stats are and where they got it? Gear is nothing but static numbers to be replaced vs gear you remember for life from earlier in wows life.

There’s also very little to no agency over your character. No choices matter. There’s no rpg elements left in this mmo RPG. It has become an mmo ARPG with more in common with diablo 3 than wow vanilla or Everquest (it’s roots). The game was better when you had to beat A to get to B, B to C, etc. now, every patch makes everything step A with different difficulties that don’t really matter because, again, mythic raiding has been devalued to such an extreme by M+

He is right. It’s the lack of rpg, the meaningless of gear, and how bad the gear ladder is now that has ran people away.

What a load of bullshit, just like Preach. There is an incentive, many in fact, to raid mythic. First of all, the prestige that comes from getting cutting edge, and famed title. Then the mythic only amazing looking sets, compared to the watered down versions of normal/lfr/hc. The items dropped on mythic are base 415, so it takes much less luck to get 425 pieces on mythic, than spamming m+. I've been doing tons of m+ this season, yet no piece has titanforged above 410. Most of my gear is raid gear that is 415-420 with from BoD mythic.

The occasional mount, and how early you get it compared to everyone else. There is prestige in that too, and if you say that well, ppl can farm it 2 expansions from now, well so what? I can just get a new amazing mythic boss mount from 10.2 patch raid and I will still be just as cool looking.

The Azerite pieces you receive from BoD are 415 with potential 420 ilvl once you earn higher levels of azerite power, which should be pretty easy soon with the artifact knowledge gains weekly.

The feeling of co-operating with 19 other people to do amazing strategies, and beat mythic exclusive mechanics. I found it pretty fun that we had to use two resto totems for our strat for Jaina mythic, the demonology warlock niche in the intermission for their insane damage, priest mind controlling the kul tirans to throw them off ship. All these things could happen on HC also, but no one ever does them, because frankly, it is not needed.

So there you have it, there are still 4-5 incentives to do mythic raiding, and I feel like it's at its most rewarding stage at this point of the game. Preach just makes stupid videos and creates controversy in the community just to rake in the cash, and you are all victims of his nostalgic words and shit. I can name you a few cool items if you like from this expansion for me personally.

- Giga-Charged Shoulderpads > Mekkatorque shoulders with near PERFECT traits for literally all warlock specs. As a warlock main, I will never forget either the azerite traits this item offered us, neither it's awesome name, cause it's GIGA.

- Opulence Trinket > You know what it does, it's a troublemaker, but it's also a trinket that makes your dps skyrocket. It's by far the strongest trinket for casters at the moment, if utilised well within the group.

- Balefire Branch > The trinket I farm every tier as a warlock, due to its sheer power. My Demon Commander could never be more thankful, dealing nearly 1 million dmg himself to jaina during intermission, thanks to this bad boy.

- Ignition Mage's Fuse > Trinket that gives you haste till you feel like a god. It has helped me squeeze in the 8th crashing chaos chaos bolt more times than I can count during infernal cds. I do not play troll, so I don't have berserking, and this trinket is POG for me.

- Crown of the Seducer > Another Opulence item, an interesting crown with gems that give you 1 fun effect, 2 useful ones, and a bunch of useless effects. I love the health pot one personally, as I find intellect potions a lot more useful than the sapphire of brilliance, but even that is pretty nice. The shrinking one gave us some good laughs on Mekkatorque HC.

- Fogbreaker, Light of the Sea > This item has helped many of our guild members reduce the Howling Winds effect on Jaina intermission, which was pretty useful for some of our weaker links to dodge the orbs created by icebound images, leading to an overall smoother progression once acquired for quite a few of our members.

A ton of great items are coming next raid, in Crucible of the Storms, with fun effects, some of which seem pretty strong and will be definitely remembered for some time. So yeah, I don't know what you are talking about, but so far, there have been some super interesting items from dungeons and BoD. Uldir was a bit boring items-wise, but so has been literally every entry raid ever. I am pretty sure there are a bunch of items like plumage or Harlan's rolling dice that melee dpsers appreciate too, or the purgatory-like effect from Bwonsamdi's bargain from tanks, etc, that many like, but I just cannot appreciate them as I focus on casters. I conclude that both Preach and you, a Preach bot, are just overreacting and need to find a new game, as you are both tired from WoW. His thumbnail, while funny, oddly represents the amount of stupidity that Preach has in his head in my opinion, if he actually believes all the bullshit he has been spreading.

[Akka]

I am not sure exactly what you trying to convey.

Yeah, that much was obvious.

How is my argument wrong when skill of a player cant be defined by 2 variables when multiple exist?

Your argument is wrong because you basically make up a definition of "bad" while ignoring what it actually means.
You then try to justify it by pulling reason out of nowhere, still ignoring the fact that it's completely besides the point.
Something if "hard" or "easy" relative to how easily it can be achieved. That's literally Captain Obvious territory. If only 1 % of the people trying to do something can manage to achieve it, by definition it's "hard".
Yet somehow it seems to escape your graps, and you make up definition of "good" and "bad" based on... well, nothing... and then when shown you're wrong, you just claim "well, I don't care about what these words are based on to be defined, lol".

Hey, I wonder... If you consider "bad" people who can't manage to be in the top 1 %, what level of stupidity would you give to people who can't manage to understand something that probably 75 % of people can ?
Because that's right where you're at now.