Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Hyeonh]

Long explanation insert here

Yeah been around long enough to see weirder things happen throughout WoW, and I would say that high elf is indeed on the back burner with the shape of bfa currently is right now. Also it's far from being the most unlikely thing to expect in this game. SHould of seen the day Draenei were made playable that was quite the storm.

[Strippling]

Sooo as @Strippling has been saying it's not "just about the lore" as you've been parroting, it's also the choice of color palette. If it was purely about the lore then nothing would change if VE customization was added to reflect the looks of HEs, as that's not what people are upset about.

The mere fact that they would "settle" for the customizations (which has absolutely nothing to do with the lore) shows that a vast majority of pro high elfers purely just wanted the aesthetic and masked their request behind lore reasons.

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Trying to act as if the disrespect comes from one side only, and thinking that Alex was only referencing pro-helfers is a misnomer. There was a question preceding the Void Elf one speaking upon how players (in general) should be conducting themselves on forums. Every. Player. Not just pro-helfers, he just brought it up again in that statement because the conversation was geared toward those wanting high elf fantasy on the Alliance.

The question was asked on behalf of the pro community. Subsequently, the response was directed toward the group asking the question. Don't beat around the bush.

Accept that fact that a lot of your community is toxic, as you claim the opposition are.

Says a lot about one's character when they come in just to shit on others.

@Aldo Hawk says hi... oh wait he's banned for doing just that (ps. he's on the pro side). By the way, he's been very aggressive toward me simply for just expressing my concerns and opinions.

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The requests for playable Alliance High Elves pre-date the introduction of the Blood Elf models introduced in TBC. They have been requested since WoW launched, if not earlier, at a time when High and Blood Elves still used Night-Elf models with crappy skins.

The intensity of high elf requests were relatively mellow until the new thalassian model was released during BC. That speaks volume of the people wanting them.

Yes, some were after alliance high elfs for the lore. But it's safe to say the aesthetics are a key factor for most of the requests from pro high elfers. Recent discussions and threads on various platforms prove this.

[Ielenia]

Yes, I saw them, really sad.

I think it's best you just admit you haven't, instead of continuing with this nonsense.

And by the way, middle ground is still not what you want it to be, but what it has to be. You guys keep yapping about compromises and middle ground but you still want it all and act as if you are owed everything you ask for.

And proof you haven't read a single post. First off, I never said that a compromise has to meet all that is being requested, but at least some, even it's just a tenth of what is being asked.

Problem is (which you guys keep ignoring) void elfes don't meet even 1% of what is being asked.

You just keep repeating the same thing over and over hoping you'd get a different response. It is, as I said, really sad.

So have you. You guys keep repeating the same thing, over and over, even after being shown you're wrong.

[FlubberPuddy]

Yeah been around long enough to see weirder things happen throughout WoW, and I would say that high elf is indeed on the back burner with the shape of bfa currently is right now. Also it's far from being the most unlikely thing to expect in this game. SHould of seen the day Draenei were made playable that was quite the storm.

Yeah I wasn't there for that (the Draenei), but I've read people drawing similarities to that and how Void Elves happened.

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The question was asked on behalf of the pro community. Subsequently, the response was directed toward the group asking the question. Don't beat around the bush.

Accept that fact that a lot of your community is toxic, as you claim the opposition are.

I was pointing out there's toxicity on both sides, sorry you seem to be having trouble understanding that.

@Aldo Hawk says hi... oh wait he's banned for doing just that (ps. he's on the pro side). By the way, he's been very aggressive toward me simply for just expressing my concerns and opinions.

Again, you seem to be only focusing on toxicity from one side and not the other. Unless you're specifically not reading posts by others in this thread besides those responding to you (which I would find hard to believe as you've agreed with others have said throughout the thread), then you should also be noting that toxic posts have come from those against High Elves being playable as well.

None of this is about "there's only toxicity from X side", it's "there's toxicity from both sides" so continually posting about it for one side just makes you look uninformed. If you notice he replied to a poster who also received an infraction. And like that poster Aldo replied to, there've been many throughout this thread who have been banned/received infractions.

Both sides have examples of toxicity, doesn't mean the majority are like this. This topic just has a lot of toxic people who are regularly involved I'll admit that. Only because both sides seem very passionate about said topic, not that it is an excuse to be toxic - it isn't.

This'll be the last I talk about toxicity since it's apparent and applicable to both sides. Making it seem one-sided is a downright lie.

[Ielenia]

This thread is for discussion of high elfs, whether you're for or against them. Don't try shut down someone else from expressing their views, just because they don't match yours... that's childish.

Except your views are objectively false, yet you keep repeating them, even when shown how wrong you are. You keep stating "it's all about the thalassian model" when time and again you've been told it's not "all about the thalassian model."

Also, a certain pro high elfer has been banned twice in recent days.... I wonder why?

Oh, personal attacks, now?

Probably because he too can't accept that people are against the idea of playable high elfs or high elven customization for void elfs. Instead this certain individual decides to resort to inflammatory remarks and comments.

Thanks for the completely irrelevant information, I guess.

Also, with regards to the compromise. I'll repeat myself, void elfs are the compromise.

They're not. So much so, Blizzard never called them a "compromise", as far as I can tell. The ones who insist void elves are a "compromise", again, as far as I know, are the anti-high-elf group.

It's so blatantly obvious they were I don't know how anyone could disagree.

Because, even if they created void elves as a compromise, it's likely the worst blunder Blizzard has ever done, in my opinion, even worse than their "let's remove flying" idea.

And void elfs aren't ex alliance high elfs cause A) alliance high elfs are nigh extinct and lore wise are literally just a few stragglers

That is irrelevant, considering void elves are an even smaller number, considering they're just a tiny group that were researching the void.

and B) alliance high elfs rejected their horde kin for "playing with naughty magic"... so why would they then turn to the void when they rejected the fel?

Had you bothered to read my posts, you'd have an idea. how.

[Strippling]

Except your views are objectively false, yet you keep repeating them, even when shown how wrong you are. You keep stating "it's all about the thalassian model" when time and again you've been told it's not "all about the thalassian model."

I've been told it's "all about the lore", but when I see posts stating "but we'll settle for the aesthetic" (which has absolutely nothing to do with the lore) it's kind of hard to believe the lore was ever really the agenda.

That is irrelevant, considering void elves are an even smaller number, considering they're just a tiny group that were researching the void

Void elfs have a greater presence than high elfs in this faction war. Can you provide a source confirming high elfs are in greater number than void elfs? Or is this just your head canon? And the "crack squad" quote is invalid cause A) it doesn't specify a number, B) void elfs have been recruiting, and C) Ion stated that high elfs are practically non-existent. And just like a lot of pro high elfers like to dismiss Ion's comments then the quote "crack squad" should similarly be dismissed.

From what I see, void elfs are popping up significantly more than high elfs during this faction war. This suggests that A) there might easily be a lot more void elfs than high elfs, and B) Void elfs seem to care more about the alliance than high elfs do.

[Hyeonh]

I've been told it's "all about the lore", but when I see posts stating "but we'll settle for the aesthetic" (which has absolutely nothing to do with the lore) it's kind of hard to believe the lore was ever really the agenda.




Void elfs have a greater presence than high elfs in this faction war. Can you provide a source confirming high elfs are in greater number than void elfs? Or is this just your head canon? And the "crack squad" quote is invalid cause A) it doesn't specify a number, B) void elfs have been recruiting, and C) Ion stated that high elfs are practically non-existent. And just like a lot of pro high elfers like to dismiss Ion's comments then the quote "crack squad" should similarly be dismissed.

From what I see, void elfs are popping up significantly more than high elfs during this faction war. This suggests that A) there might easily be a lot more void elfs than high elfs, and B) Void elfs seem to care more about the alliance than high elfs do.

Well this is my two cents on the high elves having a known larger number, They're what makes up most of the Kirin Tor forces during Mist of Pandaria and are shown to still have enough numbers to still run as a large scale army during the campaign against the Thunder King. The reason we won't see more high elves is that most of them are still affiliated with the Kirin Tor who still remain neutral in the matter due to Khadgar and the council diverting resources for answers to the disaster after the legion campaign. While we won't see more high elves soon that can quickly change later if an event causes more high elves join the alliance cause with Vareesa being prepped for something as she was also featured in the bfa prologue comics.

As for Void elves they're shown in a smaller group, for all we know the numbers are currently the small group we recruited from the rift post rescue. I won't discount the possibility of new void elves popping up from converting interested blood elves and high elves thanks to what they've discovered in the rift. but as of right now the high elves are previously shown to have more numbers.

As for Ion's statements, Blizzard has been known to forget their own lore more than once, Like the infamous red shirt guy pointing out that Falstad is still alive and well, and before that was error they later retconned with the Eredar being what caused Sergeras frustration, corruption and eventually leadership of the Legion

[Evilfish]

I think it's best you just admit you haven't, instead of continuing with this nonsense.


And proof you haven't read a single post. First off, I never said that a compromise has to meet all that is being requested, but at least some, even it's just a tenth of what is being asked.

Problem is (which you guys keep ignoring) void elfes don't meet even 1% of what is being asked.


So have you. You guys keep repeating the same thing, over and over, even after being shown you're wrong.

And how did you quantify the representation of Velfs to reach that 1% value? I'm not seeing that in your math here instead it's mostly you here making bold statements about how not to disagree with you or else whomever does will look stupid.

[Obelisk Kai]

If he is asked concerning what a company he no longer works with ideology is ... yes, it is irrelevant. And beyond that it is merely his stated opinion and has no more weight than yours or mine. All this is is "Ghostcrawler's opinion" ... I don't care about his opinion.

Stop acting like a Post Blizzard Ghostcrawler is worth anything in this discussion. His view isn't valid just because you assert it's validity. I have no evidence even to honestly support you spoke to Ghostcrawler, so I have merely humor you even bringing it up.

https://ibb.co/6tHJFZT

Now, unless you really want to argue that I fabricated the entire post, there is your evidence.

You have not provided a cogent rationale as to why his comment here is invalid. He is providing an insight into his thoughts on the original tweet he made in 2011 regarding Pandaren when placed against High Elves. And he cites Faction identity immediately. In the original tweet, when he was a member of the Blizzard development team, he said that the team wasn't keen on the results of sharing Pandaren. And Ion has twice cited faction identity as the reason Alliance High Elves weren't chosen as an Allied race, as they would have made Blood Elves de facto shared.

Ghostcrawler does not have the right to offer commentary on modern WoW and be taken as authoritative. But it is absurd to say he cannot offer commentary on what he wrote or thought when he was a member of the dev team, and as you can see my question was carefully phrased to state 'what DID you think' rather than 'what do you think'. His 2011 tweet and Ion's 2017/2018 statements show the beginning and continuation of a part of the modern design philosophy in the wake of the failure of Pandaren neutrality, the importance of keeping the factions visually and aesthetically distinct.

And essentially the differences between Blood Elves and Void Elves are essentially purely cosmetic with different active powers ... Just like Mag'har Orcs and Green Orcs. Void elves don't really have a significantly different culture than Blood Elves. They don't really have hugely different philosophies. They still view themselves as Void elves.

Blood Elves and Void Elves have substantial differences. Void Elf skin tones have shifted to a range outside what is normal for thalassians. Void Elves can also manifest tentacles. Void Elves have a set of unique void powers, such as the ability to manifest a 'void form' in combat or teleport short distances. Blood/High Elves can do none of these things. Culture wise, the Void Elves have been cut off from what is the core of thalassian culture, the Sunwell. Philosophically, they are forced to embark on a brand new exploration over who and what they are.

You are attempting to argue how Void Elves differences aren't really substantial. This is a case of missing the point. Ultimately it does not matter how profound or substantial the differences are. What matters is that the differences exist. There are no differences between Blood Elves and Alliance High Elves. Making Alliance High Elves an allied race therefore undermines faction diversity in a way Void Elves do not.

The answer doesn't make sense to you because of YOUR limited view of what a neutral race means. You are essentially pigeon holing a neutral race into one possible set. Look at Vrykul again ... it could be a neutral race but with Stormheim Vrykul and Northrend Vrykul on different sides of the conflict. It doesn't make sense to you, because you see neutral races only being like Pandaren without any reason to hold said viewpoint.

If they are aesthetically and thematically identical then they are a shared race as the Pandaren are and it matters not if they live in different zones. If they are differed aesthetically and thematically then they are no longer a shared race and no longer neutral. As to my 'limited' view of what a neutral race is, we have precisely one neutral race to base our observations on. Anything beyond that one neutral race isn't fact, it is you embarking on a flight of fancy.

States what I said was incorrect, continues to point out using his own flawed arguments. No reason even to respond to this part.

You have no real answer to support your assertion neutral races are still a viable choice despite the commentary of the development team, and their actions, that indicates neutral races are very unlikely to be repeated?

Counting one possibility as if it was really 4 is pretty sad.

They are introducing new races every other patch it seems now. If you insist it is possible for an Allied race to be introduced as neutral, then every patch that doesn't happen is another missed opportunity for them to prove the viability of shared races.

WoD and Legion didn't add ANY races so to count them as "potential neutral race" possibilities is like saying last month I had a chance of getting a new job ... despite never applying or even looking for a new job that entire month. There is no evidence they considered a new race at all during either expansion so it doesn't count as a possibility.

Previous to BFA new races were added as an expansion feature. Not adding a new race in WOD was a design choice, and one of the opportunities missed. Not adding a new race at the start of Legion was a design choice, and another of the opportunities missed. It doesn't matter that we don't know if they considered a new race or not. What matters ultimately is that they didn't add new neutral races, and that when they did begin adding races again it was back to the racial pairs formula.

The Faction War is more of a barrier to adding neutral races than any of your points. Literally it is the same level as any of your arguments against Neutral races ... in fact, it is the core aspect of your "faction identity" argument. If there was no faction war, what need is there for unique faction identity? The war is a driving point for faction identity. This weaken your own argument.

You still haven't addressed the core flaw in this argument. If the faction wall is such a barrier to adding shared races, why was the only neutral race in WoW's history added in during a full scale faction war? The faction war is no barrier to neutral races as Pandaren proved, their own philosophical differences saw some attracted to the Alliance and others to the Horde. And it's not as if the opportunity hasn't arisen since.
Both Alliance and Horde adventured with the Nightborne and helped them out, providing an unassailable lore rationale for that particular race to be added as neutral. Blizzard went out of their way to lock the Nightborne to the Horde, I am sure you recall the forums posts complaining about it from a year and a half ago.
And in the next patch we will be both be adventuring with Mecha Gnomes, yet everyone agrees that if they are an Allied race they will be joining the Alliance. How is that even when it can make sense for an Allied race to be neutral they still end up faction locked?

As to the faction war...that isn't the core of my argument at all. The faction war is simply a manifestation of the much deeper factor, the faction divide. The faction divide persists through war and peace, representing the fact that the Alliance and Horde cannot stand each other. The factions are not based on ideology, but on race. The thematic tapestry of each faction is therefore sustained by how these individual races are woven together. And the factions are kept strong by keeping them different, rather than collapsing them into a bland indistinct mishmashes. A state of war or a state of peace is irrelevant, what is crucial is the state of division between them.

Keep repeating yourself ... it doesn't make anything other than Ion's statement your only actual evidence and weak at that.

I have to keep repeating myself. The pro High Elf community has form in declaring anything not repeated within a day of it being said as 'old' and 'not relevant'.
Actions, together with words demonstrate intent. They have had several opportunities for adding neutral races, they have not only not taken them but gone out of their way not to do them when an addition would actually have made sense as neutral.
They have stated High Elves were not added because they harmed faction diversity. While High Elves are the most extreme plausible example, taking a twelve year Horde race and making it de facto shared, any other shared race would also damage faction diversity as this is what Ghostcrawler stated in 2011.

The only thing I can rationalise you are arguing for is the purity of the point, that they could add them if they wished. Fine, on that count, you are right, they COULD.
What I am demonstrating however is the preponderance of evidence, both through what they have said and what they have done (and not done) to show they have little interest in doing so.

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As for Void elves they're shown in a smaller group, for all we know the numbers are currently the small group we recruited from the rift post rescue. I won't discount the possibility of new void elves popping up from converting interested blood elves and high elves thanks to what they've discovered in the rift. but as of right now the high elves are previously shown to have more numbers.

https://www.polygon.com/2019/1/21/18...user-interview

Polygon Interviewer: There’s just one question: If they come from a small group of Silvermoon Exiles, how are they an Allied Race? Where do the numbers come from?

Moorgard: “They start out as a small group,” Danuser continues. “But it’s natural as other elves have found out about them — elves who are interested in new sources of magic, power, or opportunities — would see if they could undergo a similar process. They’re not ... recruiting, necessarily, but they’re open to those who show a similar interest.”

Void Elves are indeed getting other Elves to join them. Some of them are Alliance High Elves, as the NPCs in Telrogus show, so people can play roleplay as former High Elves if they wish.

As for Ion's statements, Blizzard has been known to forget their own lore more than once, Like the infamous red shirt guy pointing out that Falstad is still alive and well, and before that was error they later retconned with the Eredar being what caused Sergeras frustration, corruption and eventually leadership of the Legion

The Falstad issue was an obscure point of lore regarding two relatively obscure Dwarves. In contrast they have been remarkably consistent on High Elves within the Alliance being an almost extinct group and that Blood Elves are High Elves.

As a real world comparison, if we asked someone 'what is the name of the President of the United States of America' they would probably answer 'Donald Trump'. This is a well known fact, something dealt with every day that affects the entire world we live in. It is common knowledge.

However, would you then doubt their answer to the first question if you asked them 'what was the name of the First Emperor of China?' and they couldn't answer Qin Shi Huang?

Can you appreciate how using the Falstad example, or even the Eredar example, is a false equivalence? The destruction of Quel'thalas is one of the major events of Warcraft lore, experienced in game rather than written down in a book or a game manual. Of course they would be more familiar with the High Elf situation than the Falstad and Muradin.

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At this point I'd be happy if void elves had paladins...

You are aware there is a genuine reason why void based elves can't be a class defined by wielding the light right?

One reason that stops me from coming back is that my favourite char is my blood elf paladin, but I kiiiiinda dont identify anymore with the horde right now. And I kinda dont want to lose her(the paladin's) identity with a complete race change.

If an Orc Shaman currently doesn't identify with the Horde due to the current storyline yet doesn't want to lose their character's identity through a faction change, they are in the same boat.

If only the "celtic" high elf fan-idea i read somewhere was true.

That was the idea posted by the user Lionknight. Which as far as I can tell, is simply to append Celtic as an adjective to High Elves and then let someone else figure out just exactly what that is.

As an actual Celt ('Dia duit, is misé Obelisk Kai. Cad é mar atá tú?) I can tell you the video game pastiche of my culture in WoW are the Dwarves, who have lifted from Irish and Scot culture to create their unique feel. It's a cartoon version of it of course, but that is fine and it is Dwarven. Taking something from the Dwarves to invent something for the High Elves isn't going to work, just as the attempts to imagine a Wood Elf type High Elf isn't going to work because Night Elves are the Wood Elves of WoW.

Blood Elves are High Elves. High Elves are not different from Blood Elves in any way save their political opinion. If the Horde is truly lost to you and you still wish to play, the Alliance has several fine races for you. Draenei are a personal favorite of mine.

[Doffen]

Should change the topic to High Elf Discussion Super Megathread now

Or is that at 500 pages?

[Graden]

Ion's (if the Discord person isn't lying) off-the-mic comment at this past Blizzcon 2018

Hm? First time I hear of such a thing. What Ion supposedly said off-the-mic?

[Obelisk Kai]

Hm? First time I hear of such a thing. What Ion supposedly said off-the-mic?

Ion was asked about High Elves by a pro High Elfer at Blizzcon. I went over this in depth a few days ago, but Ion gave the guy the same answer as he always does but phrased nicely so as to not put a downer on the guy's day i.e. not happening, who knows what the future holds.

The change in tone has mislead some to believe it portends a change in attitude when it means no such thing, especially as he was repeating himself from April 2018 and the November Blizzcon before that.

[Ielenia]

I've been told it's "all about the lore", but when I see posts stating "but we'll settle for the aesthetic" (which has absolutely nothing to do with the lore) it's kind of hard to believe the lore was ever really the agenda.

Go educate yourself on the meaning of the word "compromise", and we'll talk.

Void elfs have a greater presence than high elfs in this faction war. Can you provide a source confirming high elfs are in greater number than void elfs?

Since you're going by "appearances", since you mention "void elves have a greater presence than high elf", consider that high elves are not fully present in this war. Also, consider that you're basically implying that a team of researchers is somehow greater than the population of high elves, since, to my knowledge, a process to convert blood/high elves into void elves has not been devised, just yet.

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And how did you quantify the representation of Velfs to reach that 1% value?

... THAT is what you decided to focus on? A figure of speech? Are you that desperate to find things to argue against?

[Garfurion]

Blood Elves are High Elves. High Elves are not different from Blood Elves in any way save their political opinion.

If Blood and High Elves are identical apart from their political opinion then what precisely are those political opinions dividing them ?

[Archmage Zana]

I've seen the OP and you guys did a great job suggesting ways to make High Elves look unique. I must confess it did make me want to play one. I love the war paints and 80s hairstyles!

Keep it up, your dedication is inspiring!

[Grythletubs]

Should change the topic to High Elf Discussion Super Megathread now

Or is that at 500 pages?

Right?

It's amazing how a simple race is receiving this much interest. 500 pages here and the official forums have a massive megathread as well

I know there's alot of negativity as well but at the end of the day it's mostly positive, high elves are alliance, and will always be alliance
Also the the major key part is that: they're cosmetic, if you don't like high elves, no one will force you to play them :P

[Obelisk Kai]

If Blood and High Elves are identical apart from their political opinion then what precisely are those political opinions dividing them ?

The Alliance High Elves believe the best interests of their people and the Kingdom of Quel'thalas are served through the Alliance. They likely believe their people are scapegoating the Alliance and are holding them unfairly responsible for what happened during the Scourge Invasion.

The Blood Elves believe that the Alliance, which they never truly believed in given they were the last to join and the first to leave, betrayed them, first during the Scourge invasion, then when Garithos sentenced their Prince to death and finally through their lack of understanding towards the methods they had adopted to sustain themselves without the Sunwell. As a result, they have rejected the Alliance and out of necessity, believe the Horde to be a stronger vehicle for their people's future.

So the political division is precisely that. The faction divide itself. Alliance, or Horde.

[matrix123mko]

Q&A coming. I'd like someone to ask Ion again.

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The Alliance High Elves believe the best interests of their people and the Kingdom of Quel'thalas are served through the Alliance. They likely believe their people are scapegoating the Alliance and are holding them unfairly responsible for what happened during the Scourge Invasion.

The Blood Elves believe that the Alliance, which they never truly believed in given they were the last to join and the first to leave, betrayed them, first during the Scourge invasion, then when Garithos sentenced their Prince to death and finally through their lack of understanding towards the methods they had adopted to sustain themselves without the Sunwell. As a result, they have rejected the Alliance and out of necessity, believe the Horde to be a stronger vehicle for their people's future.

So the political division is precisely that. The faction divide itself. Alliance, or Horde.

And opinion about magic discipline.

High Elves believe that Fel, Death and Void are evil.

Blood Elves accept any magic, unless it hurts the Sunwell.

[Varx]

Untill blizzard makes a decision themselves I still believe the only way to implement helves is through neutrality with a new horde race to compensate. Not as a whole separate race/AR.

Just rename them to "thalasian elves" with the alliance rep being the Quel'dorie and the horde rep being the "Sin'dorie".

Blizzard could easily come up with new lore to help this. Have a new starting experience and update eversong/ghostlands with a seige of silvermoon story line involving all the thalasian elf factions fighting for control. Could even make a new BG or arena. We're going to need some kind of faction conflict post BfA.

Horde then gets a new race to fill the gap. Lets say vrykul. Then alliance gets kvaldir AR to balance the night borne and horde gets a panda AR to balance the velves.

Update Demon Hunter starting quests and include more races.

Boom everyone is happy and you get a ton of content. Isn't that so much better then making a lame copy paste of belves and calling it a new AR?

If a new neutral race is a no no for blizzard then oh well, "the horde is waiting for you".

[Katchii]

If Blood and High Elves are identical apart from their political opinion then what precisely are those political opinions dividing them ?

Are you questioning whether they are identical? Or honestly just looking for the political difference between them?

https://wow.gamepedia.com/High_elf

https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/High_elf

Because they ARE identical, the renaming of the Blood Elves happened like maybe 10-12 years ago in the WoW universe? At least according to this timeline:

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Timeline_(..._Visual_Guide)

Which means the majority of Blood Elves alive today (aside from the young children), and every Blood Elf actively participating in the war (which would de facto include the player character) used to call themselves High Elves.