Portrayal of Kil'jaeden in Legion

[Lord Pebbleton]

Yet we had time travel with all the CoT dungeons and people loved those ideas. Even WoD was some convoluted Infinite Dragonflight mess with timelines BS. Don't see why people have an issue with it now?

CoT dungeons are an example of time travel done right. You go back on rails, fix the endangered timeline, and come back. Just an excuse for you to see past events.
WoD is an example of time travel done horribly. It just butchered pre-existing lore figures, it generated more questions than answers, and it ruined the whole plot more than once (the legion transcends all realities lol).

[SirBeef]

CoT dungeons are an example of time travel done right. You go back on rails, fix the endangered timeline, and come back. Just an excuse for you to see past events.
WoD is an example of time travel done horribly. It just butchered pre-existing lore figures, it generated more questions than answers, and it ruined the whole plot more than once (the legion transcends all realities lol).

But it didn't. Those guys in WoD were not the ones we experienced and remembered from before. It's almost like the TLJ discussions, that for some reason, a new movie in a series that portrayed some characters in a way they didn't like ruined everything that came before it. The new Warlords didn't butcher anything because they were not the same, they were different people with different experiences in different circumstances. Whether it was good or not is a different argument, but they didn't butcher existing lore characters in the least.

As for the Legion transcending realities, Chronicles set up how everything was created and it can make sense that the Twisting Nether can exist across all realities. If you think of it as a ring and inside are all the realities, and the outside are all the void, each reality and void touch the ring in a singular point. The ring is one piece, all the realities are separate. Again, not the best Blizzard has done, but as a fan of comics and sci-fi, this is not even close to the worst, but typical meh Blizzard storytelling.

[RoKPaNda]

I really never understood why they wrote that Athras 'destroyed' Ner'zhul? Should have left it that they meld into a singular being

As an avid WarCraft 3 player that one thing really just shit all over the WarCraft 3 story. In WarCraft 3 Ner'Zhul was a total badass. He corrupted Arthas and orchestrated events around the world from a block of ice in Northrend. Arthas was a capable body, he wasn't really a great character, a lot of the writing for him was cheesy, but he had his moments. War 3's cliffhanger ending with "Oh they have one body, how does that work? What's next for the lich king?" was great and I had such great expectations for Wrath of the Lich King only for The Lich King to turn out to be a bumbling idiot throughout most of the expansion. "Oh I'll destroy you meddling adventurers next time!"

It turns out this is because Arthas used his suddenly amazing mental ability (lol) to destroy Ner'zhul. It's funny because for the denizens of Azeroth and the player character and probably most of the lore characters they don't even know Ner'zhul, it's all Arthas to them. Arthas gets credit for a lot of what Ner'zhul accomplished.

It's okay though because Ner'zhul was back in Warlords! .... Only to die in a dungeon.

[Lord Pebbleton]

But it didn't. Those guys in WoD were not the ones we experienced and remembered from before. It's almost like the TLJ discussions, that for some reason, a new movie in a series that portrayed some characters in a way they didn't like ruined everything that came before it. The new Warlords didn't butcher anything because they were not the same, they were different people with different experiences in different circumstances. Whether it was good or not is a different argument, but they didn't butcher existing lore characters in the least.

As for the Legion transcending realities, Chronicles set up how everything was created and it can make sense that the Twisting Nether can exist across all realities. If you think of it as a ring and inside are all the realities, and the outside are all the void, each reality and void touch the ring in a singular point. The ring is one piece, all the realities are separate. Again, not the best Blizzard has done, but as a fan of comics and sci-fi, this is not even close to the worst, but typical meh Blizzard storytelling.

I do not read Warcraft books and I barely remember playing Warcraft 2, so all I knew about the warlords was tons of badassery and orcish rampage. They are giant pussies and big mouths in WoD, so it did kind of ruined it for me, even if they weren't the same dudes.
But aside from that, the problem for me is that Blizzard really didn't have to go out of their way to make WoD. They had to give countless explanations for this and for that in order to make the plot tolerable, while they could have just come up with something else for an expansion. I am actually pretty bummed that, with WoW's portal technology that allows planet crossing, not only we barely explored outside of Azeroth (before Legion), but we already went to two different iterations of Draenor. How many times do we have to go there? Will there be a "future Draenor" expansion too?

I don't know, I am just very cautious when I hear time travel/multiple realities ideas, because they can only work if one builds them extra carefully. Blizzard cannot even keep one timeline straight, let alone go infinite.

[Akka]

Yet we had time travel with all the CoT dungeons and people loved those ideas.

These dungeons were about keeping the timeline as it happened, so they somewhat avoided opening the can of worms of changing the past.

Even WoD was some convoluted Infinite Dragonflight mess with timelines BS. Don't see why people have an issue with it now?

You realize that the "alternate universe" red flag IS about WoD ? The entirety of WoD plot is pure shit that should never have been able to pass a quick-glance scrutiny, let alone an actual reflexion by a group of supposed experienced writers.

My main problem with WoD from a story perspective is that it was the expansion that brought in the whole "demons are outside of time because twisting nether".

There is also the problem, which is never even mentioned AFAIR, that a large amount of Orcs have their own self in this alternate universe (so they end up fighting themselves and their family, wut ?), and about every single Draenei has their own self and loved ones also "duplicated". Especially, dead loved ones in the MU are once again alive in the AU.
This is just a shitshow waiting to happen, and nothing is ever done with it.

Of course, there is also the whole mess about being able to travel in time and create AU at will, which just breaks any kind of plot and is the reason you DO NOT do this in a story.

CoT dungeons are an example of time travel done right. You go back on rails, fix the endangered timeline, and come back. Just an excuse for you to see past events.
WoD is an example of time travel done horribly. It just butchered pre-existing lore figures, it generated more questions than answers, and it ruined the whole plot more than once (the legion transcends all realities lol).

Exactly.

[eurojust]

As an avid WarCraft 3 player that one thing really just shit all over the WarCraft 3 story. In WarCraft 3 Ner'Zhul was a total badass. He corrupted Arthas and orchestrated events around the world from a block of ice in Northrend. Arthas was a capable body, he wasn't really a great character, a lot of the writing for him was cheesy, but he had his moments. War 3's cliffhanger ending with "Oh they have one body, how does that work? What's next for the lich king?" was great and I had such great expectations for Wrath of the Lich King only for The Lich King to turn out to be a bumbling idiot throughout most of the expansion. "Oh I'll destroy you meddling adventurers next time!"

It turns out this is because Arthas used his suddenly amazing mental ability (lol) to destroy Ner'zhul. It's funny because for the denizens of Azeroth and the player character and probably most of the lore characters they don't even know Ner'zhul, it's all Arthas to them. Arthas gets credit for a lot of what Ner'zhul accomplished.

It's okay though because Ner'zhul was back in Warlords! .... Only to die in a dungeon.

I still not understand why they did it : To please warcraft 3 fans? That's an insult. Because they thought that the body merging would be too complicated to handle? Yea that's the reason. But then it should have been Ner'zhul at the head. Just like in the entire warcraft 3 campaign. I never heard the undeads yelling "FOR ARTHAS". It was "My life for Ner'zhul" all the time.
Even the mind control thing was Ner'zhul : Arthas was never able to mind control. Hence why he doesn't see Sylvanas betrayal coming and why Ner'zhul has to warn him that this is a trap.
Arthas being able to beat mentally the smartest guy who could see the futur and outplay the Legion is just... bad.

[Baroclinic]

I've been going over the Legion story in my mind,rethinking what could be done otherwise and got to conclusion,that Legion wasted a major character. Some say,that the point of Warlords of Draenor expansion was to bring back Gul'dan. Gul'dan was the main villain in the Warlords of Draenor and the Legion until his demise in the Nighthold. Only after that, Kil'jaeden makes his appearance, in a short cutscene and later we meet him in the Tomb of Sargeras.

Now,I have a question - why the hell did we need a Gul'dan,who was Kil'jaeden's puppet,if Kil'jaeden could've gotten way more screen time and be the main jerk instead of alternative universe Gul'dan? Come on,it was Kil'jaeden,the master schemer,the jerk,who is blamed for destruction of many worlds and who destroyed entire races. Couldn't he be the one who actually creates a plan to invade the Azeroth? No,instead we wasted another major character - Archimonde,so that he could send an alternative,improved version of Gul'dan,who is more cunning and ruthless,yet not as iconic as Kil'jaeden.

Now,if we look back at it,I have a feeling,that Legion could have been more epic - come on,we took a fight against the Burning Legion itself! Before,if you would hear the word "Burning Legion",you would imagine Sargeras and his most trusted lieutenants - Kil'jaeden and Archimonde. Archimonde died like a crap in the end of other expansion,Kil'jaeden appeared in the middle of expansion without much involvement and died few momens later and Sargeras jumped out of the cloud only to stab Azeroth and be imprisoned moments later.

I think,that this and the crappy story we have in Battle for Azeroth,proves that Blizzard sold itself to Activision long ago. They had a good,interesting,logically written story up until the moment Activision took over and started to turn it into a crap,deleting a fine written text and replacing it with nonsensical bullshit. It's as if a house owner sells a beautiful,clean house to a people,who in a year turn it into a dump.

Like a crap? That was the first time I saw max stacks on LFR. Normal and Heroic were nightmarish.

[Varolyn]

Well, i think Kil'jaeden being a mid-expansion boss kind of made his narrative feel weird. He really should have been the final boss of Legion, especially since he got more storyline in 7.3 after he died. 7.2 could have been when he started to make a significant presence and learn more about him, while 7.3 we would learn more and he would have more hype, and perhaps he would reveal what Sargeras was doing with Argus. He deserved more than being the final boss of the middle raid, but i do think his story line is quite interesting for a character who doesn't really have that much lore surrounding him.

[Houle]

Im almost sure Blizz intentionally downgraded the BL with WoD and Legion, to make room for the void as the new big bad. Before these two addons, the legion was the "endgame", the final villain of WoW, something we couldn't fathom to fight, let alone destroy. When Blizz introduced the void lords, they started shitting on the BL. Iconic demons, that where portrayed akin to gods beforehand, like Archimonde and Kil'jaeden, get shafted like throw-away raid bosses, the Legion itself is portrayed as utterly incompetent (seriously, they didn't even manage to fully control Argus, their stronghold planet for over 25k years), and Sargeras isn't the biggest, baddest dude of all time anymore, but someone who is just afraid of a void titan.
Yeah, they definitely fcked them over to make the void look cooler, a classic blizzard move.

[Zandalariprelate]

A shame though the dude was worthy to carry an expansion by himself but I believe the storyline of Archimonde leading the remmains of the legion is still up to the air and probably tied with Yrel storyline which seem to play some big role in the future

[Nathreim]

The Legion and the Horde suffered greatly at the hands of Legion's writers. The Horde continues to suffer in BFA so not much has changed.

[Sanguinerd]

While I agree Blizzard writing isn't always the best it does often feel like they limit themselves purely because they're afraid of the inevitable backlash they get no matter what they do.

I wish they'd be a bit bolder in their actions. KJ should've brought Dalaran to the ground or something, we'd just lose it - it's gone and the story moves forward.

The Legion should've invaded all over the place, cities, towns, whatever. Lowbies would get absolutely wrecked but that's ok hell they could've even borrowed the nemesis idea from Shadow of Mordor and have whatever we kill come back and stronger and improved untill they'd be close to impossible to kill(or just have immunities all of a sudden).

A shame though the dude was worthy to carry an expansion by himself but I believe the storyline of Archimonde leading the remmains of the legion is still up to the air and probably tied with Yrel storyline which seem to play some big role in the future

Didn't Archimonde die in the nether? He aint coming back.

[Zandalariprelate]

I still not understand why they did it : To please warcraft 3 fans? That's an insult. Because they thought that the body merging would be too complicated to handle? Yea that's the reason. But then it should have been Ner'zhul at the head. Just like in the entire warcraft 3 campaign. I never heard the undeads yelling "FOR ARTHAS". It was "My life for Ner'zhul" all the time.
Even the mind control thing was Ner'zhul : Arthas was never able to mind control. Hence why he doesn't see Sylvanas betrayal coming and why Ner'zhul has to warn him that this is a trap.
Arthas being able to beat mentally the smartest guy who could see the futur and outplay the Legion is just... bad.

Ner'zhul didn't outplayed the legion, he outplayed Archimonde while Kil'jaeden was ravaging others planet, the fact Illidan with the eye of the most weak Avatar of Sargeras actually almost destroyed him while Arthas and the scourge were afk doesn't make him look very cunning or even too much concerned about self preservation

[Leodok]

Between Kil'Jaeden and Gul'dan, I prefer Gul'dan. Though I agree KJ should have gotten more development and screen time, both before and after 7.2. Showing up more in the Broken Isles, maybe being present in the small questline with Velen and the big Light thing in 7.0. Then the final boss in Tomb of Sargeras is the avatar, and KJ gets to live and be a central character in Argus and the final boss of the expansion. Maybe, rather than just feeling sorry, he actually somewhat redeems himself by being the one to imprison Sargeras (Illidan can still be the jailor) before he dies. This way, we also get rid of the pointless titan crap.

[Zandalariprelate]

Didn't Archimonde die in the nether? He aint coming back.

Actually he is into some limbo

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...3#post43558523

Although Kosak is no longer part of the writing team, blizzard can ass pull him back if they really want to put him in the spotlight again which could tied with the possible storyline they are planning for Yrel and Velen.

[Khaza-R]

As an avid WarCraft 3 player that one thing really just shit all over the WarCraft 3 story. In WarCraft 3 Ner'Zhul was a total badass. He corrupted Arthas and orchestrated events around the world from a block of ice in Northrend. Arthas was a capable body, he wasn't really a great character, a lot of the writing for him was cheesy, but he had his moments. War 3's cliffhanger ending with "Oh they have one body, how does that work? What's next for the lich king?" was great and I had such great expectations for Wrath of the Lich King only for The Lich King to turn out to be a bumbling idiot throughout most of the expansion. "Oh I'll destroy you meddling adventurers next time!"

It turns out this is because Arthas used his suddenly amazing mental ability (lol) to destroy Ner'zhul. It's funny because for the denizens of Azeroth and the player character and probably most of the lore characters they don't even know Ner'zhul, it's all Arthas to them. Arthas gets credit for a lot of what Ner'zhul accomplished.

It's okay though because Ner'zhul was back in Warlords! .... Only to die in a dungeon.

Didn't they fortunately retcon themselves again in Chronicles. Arthas didn't destroy him, however due to Ner'zhul's remorse in corrupting the Orcish clans allowed Arthas to basically overcome him as the dominant personality. So technically the new Lich King should be Bolvar and Ner'zhul conjoined

I think,that this and the crappy story we have in Battle for Azeroth,proves that Blizzard sold itself to Activision long ago. They had a good,interesting,logically written story up until the moment Activision took over and started to turn it into a crap,deleting a fine written text and replacing it with nonsensical bullshit. It's as if a house owner sells a beautiful,clean house to a people,who in a year turn it into a dump.

This is pretty amusing because Blizzard has always handled villains poorly in WoW. They are excellent at world building, but they really lack at making a compelling antagonist for the story.

- Burning Crusade gave us Illidan as the title villain but his motives were weak and boiled down to basically he went paranoid and insane

- The Lich King completely negated the Ner'zhul arc which was building up since the Reign of Chaos. In that way the Lich King fight was extremely anti-climatic.

- Deathwing has virtually zero development in game. Easily the worst offender of Blizzards character writing to date

There best villains have been the ones they've planned across multiple expansions like Garrosh and Gul'dan. Which should maybe be a signal to them they their characters need more exposure before they become loot pinatas for the fight to feel rewarding.

[Houle]

Ner'zhul didn't outplayed the legion, he outplayed Archimonde while Kil'jaeden was ravaging others planet, the fact Illidan with the eye of the most weak Avatar of Sargeras actually almost destroyed him while Arthas and the scourge were afk doesn't make him look very cunning or even too much concerned about self preservation

Except ner'zhul did outplay the legion, and kil'jaeden was watching the entire time, which is why he instantly sent illidant when he realized ner'zhul fcked them all over. Even Chronicles 3 axtually describes pretty detailed that Ner'zhul was incredible cunning. It's a lore fact by now, sorry. Also, we still don't know what the eye of Sargeras was, but to call it weak is just laughable. The thing was able to split an entire continent, used by no-name naga mages, just like that. Thats pretty much the opposite of weak. That kind of power would prove fatal to pretty much every force/fortress on Azeroth right now.

[Zandalariprelate]

Except ner'zhul did outplay the legion, and kil'jaeden was watching the entire time, which is why he instantly sent illidant when he realized ner'zhul fcked them all over. Even Chronicles 3 axtually describes pretty detailed that Ner'zhul was incredible cunning. It's a lore fact by now, sorry. Also, we still don't know what the eye of Sargeras was, but to call it weak is just laughable. The thing was able to split an entire continent, used by no-name naga mages, just like that. Thats pretty much the opposite of weak. That kind of power would prove fatal to pretty much every force/fortress on Azeroth right now.

Sargeras avatar was designed to be weak enough to be defeated by the mom of Medivh and possess her womb but still doesn't explain why nobody from the scourge was concerned that Illidan was destroying icecrown, at the very least Kel'thuzad should had send some dks or cultist to undermine Illidan. He may have outplayed the legion but he can't foresee Illidan using a powerful spell to destroy him and which will harm his control over the deads? Yeah maybe some plot holes but still outplaying the legion has become a trend if we count others characters like Locus-Walker, the draenei, Naarus, N'zoth and Eonar

[Wilfire]

They tried to humanize Kil'jaeden and failed horribly. You can't humanize a demonic overlord and expect him to remain epic. Some characters work better as one-dimensional forces of nature. Imagine if Deathwing started moping around and whining about how bad N'Zoth is. That's exactly what Kil'jaeden did in Legion. Not everyone has to be a multi-dimensional, deep, complex character with internal struggles. Sometimes you just want a demon lord who's out to whoop your ass.

[Gaidax]

Blizzard writers are still Blizzard writers regardless of Activsion. As such, they are as prone to hit and miss as any other video game story writing team. There's no "Acivision is pushing shit narrative" angle here.

Pretty much. People totally go out of whack with all this Activision thing.

IMO Gul'dan was really well done, but KJ could have used a bit more time than what amounted to one patch.