Why torture Derek?

[Super Dickmann]

Ah so she may not be collecting souls like the Lich King did but she is collecting the flow of necromancy! In magical terms; necromantic energy flows through Death to bring a creature back to life. The Val'kyr control that flow but what if before it ends on the individual Forsaken it always passes through their prime, which is now Sylvanas.

Yup, that's what I'm getting at. This base level connection that the val'kyr have to Sylvanas is also why the 'berserk state' Forsaken raised default to loyalty to Sylvanas, because in that window of time where they lack conscious will it's substituted with the will of the one who they're connected to, being Sylvanas. Once that wears off and their personality surfaces, they can make a call, but if you really want to push it they're more susceptible to suggestion still.

The rest of this theory is interesting as well, though it does get weird in Sylvanas' case unless we assume she's tied to the LK or Yoggy. The alternative is that the val'kyr are expanding her own abilities, but are still tied to them. Hence why the LK-aligned val'kyr could do a lot more, since they were tied to a more powerful figure, whereas Sylvanas was initially just an average necromancer and could only raise a few things. As she became more powerful, so too did they with them feeding into each other.

All speculation, but it's fun to consider.

[valky94]

because sylvannas wanted to mind control him so he could return to his family and slaughter them in their sleep

/thread

[Amenophis]

watches GoT
sees dickless guy mentally broken and bent
thats what sylv wanted to happen? maybe that actually happened and we (and ded boi) still dont know?

but uhhh, idk I wouldnt want to force it, its obviously just bad writing

lol, pretty much sums up what I was thinking.

If I were to write the story, I would have Sylvanas brainwash Derek with many ways. Seducing/drugs/creating fake environments. You name it, history is full of examples.

I am still playing this game because I have got hooked to it for since vanilla. But, the story of BFA is just pure bad and I find myself cringing for most of the time as the story goes.

[Darththeo]

Sounds pretty evil though.

They are pretty much making Sylvanas a cartoon level villain at this point. They could have done a story that was morally grey, but they don't seem to understand that. Garrosh seems more morally grey than Sylvanas at this point.

[Gaidax]

For fun, it's what Horde does nowadays.

[Kaver]

They are pretty much making Sylvanas a cartoon level villain at this point. They could have done a story that was morally grey, but they don't seem to understand that. Garrosh seems more morally grey than Sylvanas at this point.

The morally grey part has never been applying to Sylvanas though. Blizzard said the Horde was in a morally grey scenario because they were following an evil warchief. They never said Sylvanas was morally grey.

[Super Dickmann]

Another thing. Bwon could probably function as a Prime as well.

Bwon's a weird case because unlike Sylvanas or the LK he's a death entity, not an undeath entity, so I'm unsure if the same rules apply though at least gaining power from followers appears a standard thing.

[vashe9]

Because it's an ennemy of the Horde.

Or because it's just a reason to have these elusive "Undeads of the light" in Alliance in next expansion :/

[Trumpcat]

You overthink it, guys. It's the Horde, it's what they do. Evil stuff, but then someone remembers to say HONOR, something, something. The Horde is not what it does since about ever.

Derek is not a ticking bomb. I am more curious to see what happens with Sylvanas disturbing the balance and nobody associated with death knows what's she on about and what wanted the crackhead to make her leader.

[omeomorfismo]

im still hoping that she put a manabomb in derek's ass and is waiting the explosion.
at least in this way i can feel a bit less bad to have to kill other forsakens for that shit of baine T_T

[Destinas]

It boils down to how "free will" is attained by Forsaken, or taken away. Several different scenarios have been shown so far.

1.) They're created with Free Will. The player Forsaken character is told so from their first quest, and they are certainly able to do whatever they well please in the game. We also see this with characters like Putress, Zelling, Voss, Godfrey, and even Warden Stillwater in Hillsbrad, the Desolate Council, among others. All of them have acted in either their own interests, or specifically against Sylvanas - player Forsaken characters, of course, have a choice in some BfA quests.

2.) They're created without Free Will. We see this with Kirin Tor raised in Silverpine, who praise the Dark Lady upon being reanimated, despite fighting against her moments before. Of course, recently, we see the Night Elves in Darkshore (Delaryn, Sira, etc) that are loyal to the Forsaken, angry with Elune since she let them burn (despite the fact that the Forsaken/Horde were the ones that burned them in the first place). This would suggest either a type of mind control, or they are created with the ability to be shaped easily.

3.) They're created mindless, but can be persuaded one way or another. We see this outright stated with characters like Dumass in Hillsbrad, and we see this with the Rotbrain Encampment in Tirisfal as well. Even Amalia Stone spent quite a bit of time this expansion being, basically, dazed and mindless, only to be encouraged and shaped by Lilian Voss. It would explain, partially, why Galen Trollbane worked with the Forsaken for a while in Cataclysm, only to betray everyone later on in Legion.

Derek, as well, was mostly just angry and confused when he was first raised, meaning that in order for Sylvanas to warp his mind the way she wanted, she needed to bind him, lie to him, torture him, and perform rituals. Perhaps his personality would conflict with her orders too much for him to do her bidding right away, so she would need to alter his personality entirely.

It's such a mixed bag with the examples we've seen, but I would lean to the third option specifically for Derek. Perhaps it's a different reason for every individual person - like Lilian Voss explains to Zelling. However, Derek is very serene when he meets Jaina, very different from the scared, child-like personality he had right after being raised. We could chalk it up to "bad writing" - but I wanted to keep it within the rules of the OP.

[Kaver]

im still hoping that she put a manabomb in derek's ass and is waiting the explosion.
at least in this way i can feel a bit less bad to have to kill other forsakens for that shit of baine T_T

Do you like to be one of the villains?

[HCLM]

They did it to make him look like a victim so Baine releases him and then he brings him back to Jaina. Now Sylv has a perfect spy / assassin inside Alliance.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Do you like to be one of the villains?

Over being a stupid good “muh ever changing morals” character, or just a downright moron every single day. Hell give me the torture mallet, I’ll flagellate Derek’s soft shitty body myself until he knows the glory of Sylvanas. The alternative is killing Horde in the name of “honor” and shooting the Horde in the knee.

Tldr better to be evil than to just be a moron.

Or in the case of basically the entire Alliance, criminally boring.

[Super Dickmann]

Do you like to be one of the villains?

Given the alternatives are being equally as evil, but also a raging hypocrite or being a terminal bore, sure.

[Kaver]

Given the alternatives are being equally as evil, but also a raging hypocrite or being a terminal bore, sure.

What do you mean by:

1) equally as evil?
2) being a terminal bore?

Who is that and why?

[Super Dickmann]

What do you mean by:

1) equally as evil?
2) being a terminal bore?

Who is that and why?

The Alliance are so perfectly good and deprived of any internal conflict that they're terminally boring.
The 'Horde opposition' are pansies who selectively get angry only when humans are harmed, or actively work to foil the faction without opposing Sylvanas directly until they get a peptalk from the Alliance. They're massive hypocrites who've either been complicit in everything Sylvanas has done up to this point and/or are thus evil or are completely uninterested in what happens to their own race and thus contemptible.

[Kaver]

The Alliance are so perfectly good and deprived of any internal conflict that they're terminally boring.

Sounds a bit like a drama queen. Would you like Anduin to go crazy everytime people do not follow his state of mind?

- - - Updated - - -

The 'Horde opposition' are pansies who selectively get angry only when humans are harmed, or actively work to foil the faction without opposing Sylvanas directly until they get a peptalk from the Alliance. They're massive hypocrites who've either been complicit in everything Sylvanas has done up to this point and/or are thus evil or are completely uninterested in what happens to their own race and thus contemptible.

But isn't this exactly why the Horde has the internal conflict that you like? I assume you would find it boring if all members of the Horde just followed Sylvanas blindly.

This is also what Blizzard meant with the Horde being morally grey. Baine, Saurfang etc. have all to some degree been following Sylvanas and been accomplished in evil actions. But they start to question these actions. No member of the Horde is free of guilt, but everyone is allowed to change their mind. What you describe is a scenario of extremes.. either you follow Sylvanas the whole way, or you quit from the beginning. But of course there can be something inbetween.

[Super Dickmann]

Sounds a bit like a drama queen. Would you like Anduin to go crazy everytime people do not follow his state of mind?

No, I'd like some common sense. Kul Tiras forgiving the Horde and thinking Daelin is wrong in an expansion that proves he was 100% correct is absurd. Lightforged and Void Elves getting along is absurd. Void Elves being readily accepted in a society of light worshipers is absurd. The Night Elves being chill with Anduin after he let Sylvanas strike first is absurd. Current domesticated Genn is absurd and so on. The entirety of the Alliance storyline gravitates around Anduin to the expense of all else into a lawful good blob.

But isn't this exactly why the Horde has the internal conflict that you like?

This is also what Blizzard meant with the Horde being morally grey. Baine, Saurfang etc. have all to some degree been following Sylvanas and been accomplished in evil actions. But they start to question these actions.

No, because the internal conflict of the Horde is based on the most retarded grounds imaginable. Baine doesn't give a bit of a fuck that his own people got gassed and raised or that Sylvanas committed genocide, only that one human who's the brother of a buddy of his got harmed. Saurfang refuses to be rescued by the Horde or to fight Sylvanas from within but allows two Alliance leaders to go free and requires Anduin to give him a pep talk before he rebels. Everyone else is complicit but we'll be told that they were poor innocent victims corralled into doing bad things by Sylvanas.

[omeomorfismo]

Do you like to be one of the villains?

i dont care, as a forsaken, about human's feeling, or even feeling as a whole.
if tricky them with a such tactic would cause the death of enemy's leaders im totally in

i mean, i would be even totally fine with the actual torture on derek, but this "mindcontrol" is too problematic and feel forced towards a garroshification of sylvanas.
an easy bomb in derek would be still "villanous" and forsaken-esque enough to be acceptable for all the sides. no free will violation for forsaken, still the horror!!1!! for ally, such viciousness!1!! for the honorde