Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Ielenia]

- Pandaren are recruitable on mission tables. To my knowledge, high elfs are not.

Kind of a dishonest point to make, considering you can only recruit unlocked playable races at the mission table.

[FlubberPuddy]

Playable High Elves are already ingame no probs

The Alliance colors never looked so good together

[Garfurion]

Looks like you don't have to wait for guard day anymore

[Obelisk Kai]

Assuming most of the blue eyed elves in game are High Elves, there are still quite some High Elven shopkeepers, citizens and Kirin Tor members in the Broken Isles version of Dalaran. For Example Aemara, Aimee, Arille Azuregaze, Fialla Sweetberry, Ildine Sorrowspear, Imindril Spearsong, Paldesse, Valaden Silverblade, Aludane Whitecloud, Teller Althiellis, Archmage Tenaj, etc...

Since Dalaran was neutral in Legion at least the Kirin Tor members should be officially neutral (after all they are answering first and formost to the Kirin Tor).
I think a case can be made for most of the High and Blood Elven merachants, shopkeepers, etc.. to be neutral as well. Most will have lived in Dalaran for a long time.

One High Elf we can be certain to be not aligned with the Alliance is Grand Magus Telestra who is a Boss in the Nexus and sided with Malygos.

Another High Elf we can be certain is not aligned with the Alliance is Instructor Malicia who used to be a mini-boss in Scholomance and now is located in Malicia's Outpost, which is inhabited by members of the Cult of the Damned.

There is also Earthcaller Franzahl who was part of the Thunderfury questline. His apprentice is Master Elemental Shaper Krixix, a Goblin interested in talking to Old Gods. I admit that his allegiance is not 100% clear but I think based on him being part of quest-line for both sides that he is neutral and not interested in politics.

A few points. Instructor Malicia could have sided with the Cult before the destruction of Quel'thalas. The Cult of the Damned was after all active in the pre war period under Kel'Thuzad's leadership.

Franzahl's loyalty is not clear. His quest text implies that he has been away from home for a very, very long time and was not involved in the events that led to the Blood Elf-High Elf split.

These first two are however, just two individuals and we cannot confirm or deny whether they were involved in the initial split.

As for Telestra, her biography makes clear she served Dalaran prior to throwing her lot in with Malygos and addressing the High Elves of Dalaran will cover her as well.

The question becomes the neutrality of the High Elf citizens of Dalaran. How is that perceived?

To which I offer this video in evidence.

https://youtu.be/6UOh2-yCymw?t=66

This video is the conversation between Anduin and Jaina while Jaina still led the Kirin Tor during Mists of Pandaria.

The critical line, played over an image of an Alliance High Elf in a Silver Covenant tabard and a Blood Elf Sunreaver is 'The Sunreavers still operate in this city. Alliance and Horde work together'.

I have often argued that the Silver Covenant and the Sunreavers were technically neutral owing to Dalaran's neutrality. Yet the key word many miss is 'technically'. Everyone and their mother knew both factions were highly partisan towards their respective factions, with even Jaina describing their joint efforts as Alliance and Horde working together.

So the Silver Covenant is Alliance. What about High Elf Mages within the Kirin Tor? Well, many of those are also it seems flagged as Silver Covenant. And the Sunreaver Mages who were a part of the Kirin Tor were not seen as separate from the Horde or the Sunreavers in general when Jaina went on her post Divine Bell rampage.

High Elf shopkeepers and merchants? Again, respect for the neutrality of merchants did not extend to the Blood Elven population who were robbed, murdered and imprisoned during the purge of Dalaran, which Jaina reported to Varian as the removal of the Horde from Dalaran. If those civilians were seen as Horde, then it follows the High Elven civilians would be seen as Alliance. Nor can we be certain they have lived there for a very long time. Whilst we know the city was evacuated prior to it's destruction in the Third War, it does not automatically follow that the High Elf population sat in a field waiting for the city to be rebuilt. We know some went with Jaina to Kalimdor and probably died at Theramore. We know a lot of the Mages must have gone back with Kael to Quel'thalas, because where else would the Sunreavers have come from?The Sunreavers were identified by Jaina as the same group who taught Humanity magic millenia earlier during the Troll Wars. Aethas said Jaina had no right to turf him and his people out of a city they had as much right to call home as anyone else. In the moment, that didn't matter. The Sunreavers were Horde. Some High Elves remained with the Kirin Tor, but not enough that they were ascribed the role of having taught humanity magic as the Sunreavers were. Is it not likelier that the High Elf merchants of Dalaran are refugees who made the political choice to live there, in the haven for their kind Veressa created?


Alliance High Elves are almost exclusively associated now with Dalaran. It is why they show up when Dalaran is involved, not because Blizzard likes taunting people with Alliance High Elves but because what remains of the Alliance High Elf population lives there and are part of the Dalaran 'kit'. And what defines them but that rejection of what their people have become? Their political choice to remain in opposition and aligned to the enemies of their people.

In many ways your example of the Scryers has been helpful. They too are a group of thalassian elves living in a distant city, following a different path to the majority of their people. But the critical difference is that they are not politically opposed to the path most Blood Elves are on, whereas the Alliance High Elves are.

Alliance High Elves are an antagonistic, Alliance aligned version of the Scryers.

AI hope the examples above will make you reconsider that again. I think Ion's words from a year ago were clear:

"So uh basically Blood Elves kind of are High Elves with slightly different eye color, different back story in terms of their relationship with magic and the Sunwell"

From Ask CDev we know that:

The situation regarding blood elf eyes is, in fact, extremely similar to that of the green skin of orcs: just being around heavy use of fel magic turned the eyes of the blood elves green. You could be the most pious of priests or most outdoorsy of Farstriders, chances are, if you were a high elf in Quel'Thalas or Outland following the Third War, you were around fel energies, and your eyes would turn green. Like the orcs' skin color, such an effect would take a very long time to wear off. Fel magic works a bit like radiation in this sense; it permeates the area and seeps into anything in the vicinity. Anything near a source of fel magic shows signs of slight corruption, it just so happens that high elves and orcs manifest it in a very visual way.

This could explain any newborn Blood Elves having green eyes while High Elves living outside of Quel'Thalas would still be born with blue eyes.
Yellow eyes might complicate things if we see High Elves with them but if yellow eyes stay Blood Elf only it could indicate them having closer relationship to the restored Sunwell.

I am afraid I have not reconsidered this particular point. Whilst your post has given me a lot of food for thought, I think the fundamental point remains. Alliance High Elves are divided from Blood Elves by a political opinion and that defines them. Where you have aided me is the realization that being a member of the Horde is not the definitive aspect of being a Blood Elf, being a thalassian elf is. Blood Elves after all are High Elves, the High Elf redefined, so the definition of a Blood Elf must encompass them all, the Horde aligned super-majority, the separate Scryers in Outland, the various traitors in smaller organisations and even the renegade political faction that is the Alliance High Elf. Even Alleria, who is complicated, expressed shock at the news that Sylvanas led the Horde because of what the Horde did 'to our people'...how much more shocking would it have been for her to learn moments later in private that her people had joined that very same Horde.

As for eye colour, that passage to me proved that as thalassian elf eye colour is mutable dependant on what energy source is either in proximity or fed upon, that it cannot be used as a differentiating factor. Some Blood Elves heavily involved with the Arcane should be able to manifest blue eyes. Alliance High Elves should, under deeply unfortunate circumstances involving over exposure to fel, be able to manifest green. Both groups,as they feed upon the restored Sunwell, should be able to manifest yellow. As it is mutable, it is not a defining characteristic. I do not believe Blood Elves have a closer relationship with the Sunwell than the Alliance High Elves, I propose that the Elves who ARE manifesting yellow in game are primarily those who use light magic the most, Paladins and Priests. This has likely accelerated their adoption of golden eyes. Butany class save Demon Hunters can display golden eyes, even Warlocks, shows that it is an effect not limited to those light wielding classes. Alliance High Elves will, in the fullness of time, manifest those eyes too. As will probably every thalassian elf not anchored to the void. There are just a lot less light wielders among them, being primarily hunters or mages.

[elbleuet]

Alliance High Elves are divided from Horde Blood Elves by a political opinion

That's better. Not all blood elves are part nor support the Horde, as shown in Silvermoon, Telogrus with Blood elves ready to work with Umbric & Alleria and the void elves thing.

I think it would be interesting to see how void elves see their void and bloody brethren.

[Strippling]

Kind of a dishonest point to make, considering you can only recruit unlocked playable races at the mission table.

How's it dishonest? It's a factual point. It indicates that the actual playable races in the Alliance are more core to the Alliance than the high elf community make them out to be. Both gnomes and pandaren have been more present and active in this faction war than high elfs have. I made that point to reemphasize that majority of alliance aligned high elfs serve the Kirin Tor first and foremost.

[Ielenia]

How's it dishonest? It's a factual point. It indicates that the actual playable races in the Alliance are more core to the Alliance than the high elf community make them out to be. Both gnomes and pandaren have been more present and active in this faction war than high elfs have. I made that point to reemphasize that majority of alliance aligned high elfs serve the Kirin Tor first and foremost.

No, it is dishonest because it has nothing to do with high elves being part of the Alliance or not. You're basically saying "this feature that shows only unlocked playable races of the Alliance does not show the high elves who are not a currently playable race, therefore the high elves that is not a currently playable race are not an Alliance race."

I mean, FFS, I'll repeat this: the troop recruitment feature will not give you Lightforged Dragoons, Veiled Riftblades, and Dark Iron Shadowcasters until you unlock the lightforged draenei, void elves and dark iron dwarves, respectively.

And the Dark Iron dwarves were already part of the Alliance since the Cataclysm. But, again, you cannot recruit them until you unlock them as a playable race.

You might as well point at the character creation screen and say "See? No high elf option in the character selection screen. That means the high elves are not an alliance race."

[elbleuet]

How's it dishonest? It's a factual point. It indicates that the actual playable races in the Alliance are more core to the Alliance than the high elf community make them out to be. Both gnomes and pandaren have been more present and active in this faction war than high elfs have. I made that point to reemphasize that majority of alliance aligned high elfs serve the Kirin Tor first and foremost.

The problem is, that's your own definition about what really defines a core race.

"To me a core Alliance has to fight in THIS patch, THIS build, THIS expansion otherwise that's not an Alliance core race because I said so"

Not everyone shares your point of view.

High elves are an Alliance core race because of historical reasons. Because some of them never left the Alliance. Because they're introduced in every expansions since WoW Vanilla. Because we got 2 Windrunner sisters from one of the most famous family of Quel'Thalas.

And sorry, based on your logic, Pandaren are an Alliance core race because they fight for the Alliance right now. Top kek for a race fighting for both factions.

[Garfurion]

A few points. Instructor Malicia could have sided with the Cult before the destruction of Quel'thalas. The Cult of the Damned was after all active in the pre war period under Kel'Thuzad's leadership.

That doesn't matter. Fact is she is/was High Elf after the restoration of the Snwell and not a member of the Alliance, therefore the difference between Blood Elves and High Elves is not the faction divide.

If those civilians were seen as Horde, then it follows the High Elven civilians would be seen as Alliance.

No it doesn't. There are more options than Horde and Alliance, such as Neutral.

Alliance High Elves are almost exclusively associated now with Dalaran.

We don't know the percentage of High Elves that are part of the Silver Covenant.
It also doesn't mean the reverse is true as well, that all Dalaran High Elves are Alliance.

In many ways your example of the Scryers has been helpful. They too are a group of thalassian elves living in a distant city, following a different path to the majority of their people. But the critical difference is that they are not politically opposed to the path most Blood Elves are on, whereas the Alliance High Elves are.

Why would the Scryers, who are Blood Elves, oppose their own path ? Seems to me that they deliberately chose their path.

Alliance High Elves are divided from Blood Elves by a political opinion and that defines them.

Basically what you are saying is that blue shoes can be distinguished from other color footwear by their color.

Horde Blood Elves are divided from Alliance Humans by the faction divide as well.

As for eye colour, that passage to me proved that as thalassian elf eye colour is mutable dependant on what energy source is either in proximity or fed upon, that it cannot be used as a differentiating factor.

That's not true according to Ion Hazzikostas:

"Blood Elves kind of are High Elves with different eye color"-- Ion Hazzikostas April 2018

and

"Eye color is not quite the same but maybe contact lenses in the future, you never know? "-- Ion Hazzikostas April 2018

He mentions eye color as a differentiating factor twice.

For someone who frequently revers to Ion's statements as "word of god", I'm surprised that you seem to ignore this part of his April 2018 Q&A answer.

Alliance High Elves should, under deeply unfortunate circumstances involving over exposure to fel, be able to manifest green. Both groups,as they feed upon the restored Sunwell, should be able to manifest yellow. As it is mutable, it is not a defining characteristic.

I used to believe the same thing, but after Ion Hazzikostas statement in April 2018 it seems eye color is a crucial difference.

Yellow eyes were already data-mined in March 2018, a month before he said High Elves and Blood Elves have different eye colors therefore we have to assume he was aware of yellow eyes and therefore it was included in his answer.

Until Blizzard says otherwise or we see clear counter examples we should therefore assume that eye color is one of the differentiating factors between High Elves and Blood Elves, regardless of their organization or faction, even if that conflicts with or requires us to reconsider older lore sources.

- - - Updated - - -

That's better. Not all blood elves are part nor support the Horde, as shown in Silvermoon, Telogrus with Blood elves ready to work with Umbric & Alleria and the void elves thing.

I forgot about the Blood Elves in Telogrus Rift...I guess that means there are non-playable Alliance Blood Elves.

Alleria probably wouldn't allow Void Elves to teach the secrets of the Void to the Horde.

[Strippling]

No, it is dishonest because it has nothing to do with high elves being part of the Alliance or not. You're basically saying "this feature that shows only unlocked playable races of the Alliance does not show the high elves who are not a currently playable race, therefore the high elves that is not a currently playable race are not an Alliance race."
[/I]

Great job taking my point out of context. 10/10.

My post was in response to @elbleuet who said "Ugh...Yea and ? Alliance pandaren are nowhere to be seen either... "

I responded by saying:
- Pandaren are recruitable on mission tables. To my knowledge, high elfs are not.
- Aysa Cloudsinger is in the Alliance embassy. Vareesa is not, nor any other high elf representatives. Alleria represents the void elfs.
- Pandaren are present during questing... some even give you quests. To my knowledge, high elfs are not.
- Pandaren soldiers wearing Alliance like armor... suggesting they're active in this war.

You've then decided to take one line from my response and manage to completely take it out of context. I was factually stating that Alliance Pandaren ARE more present in this faction war than high elfs are. How is what I posted dishonest? If you're gonna reply at least try to be in context with what is being discussed.

- - - Updated - - -

"To me a core Alliance has to fight in THIS patch, THIS build, THIS expansion otherwise that's not an Alliance core race because I said so"

Given that THIS faction war is likely the MOST serious war between the two factions, one would think that any race "core" to the Alliance would be actively and heavily present in THIS war. That is my opinion of course, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on why a "core" alliance race is practically no where to be seen in THIS crucial war?? Seems to me this group of alliance aligned high elfs answer first to the Kirin Tor over the alliance... noting that the Kirin Tor currently want no part in the war.

High elves are an Alliance core race because of historical reasons. Because some of them never left the Alliance. Because they're introduced in every expansions since WoW Vanilla. Because we got 2 Windrunner sisters from one of the most famous family of Quel'Thalas.

history
/ˈhɪst(ə)ri/Submit
noun
1.
the study of past events

Key emphasis on past. Presently, they are not "core". Also, even their past allegiance was fickle at best. I can provide sources if you like showing that historically the high elfs were reluctant of their allegiance to the Alliance.

Vareesa is more associated with the Kirin Tor than the Alliance. Her late husband was the leader of the Kirin Tor, and when he became leader she created the Silver Covenant as a militant faction of the Kirin Tor. Alleria is further from a high elf than the blood elfs are. And when high elfs have been introduced, it's usually been as ambassadors of the Kirin Tor.

[Garfurion]

- Pandaren are present during questing... some even give you quests. To my knowledge, high elfs are not.

Yvera Dawning

- Pandaren soldiers wearing Alliance like armor... suggesting they're active in this war.[/I]

7th Legion Shield-mage

[The Stormbringer]

As of Ion's latest Q&A, it's possible more eye colors and things will be added to the game as customization. Blue yes for Blood Elves, maybe?

[Ielenia]

Great job taking my point out of context. 10/10.

Just to be sure, I went back and re-read your post and the one you responded to.

What I said still holds up. Pointing at the "troop recruitment" feature not showing high elves is still a dishonest thing to say because that is a feature that includes only playable races. High elves could comprise 90% of the whole Alliance population, and they'd still not show as a recruit-able troop because they're not a playable race. Which is why the pandaren, as painfully underrepresented and underutilized as they are, do show up as a recruit-able troop.

[Strippling]

Yvera Dawning


7th Legion Shield-mage

One NPC trainer and a handful of NPC only found in Stromgard. Got it. High elfs heavily present in this faction war confirmed.

p.s still more pandaren, gnomes and void elfs present in the war.

[elbleuet]

Given that THIS faction war is likely the MOST serious war between the two factions, one would think that any race "core" to the Alliance would be actively and heavily present in THIS war. That is my opinion of course, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on why a "core" alliance race is practically no where to be seen in THIS crucial war?? Seems to me this group of alliance aligned high elfs answer first to the Kirin Tor over the alliance... noting that the Kirin Tor currently want no part in the war.

Again, High elves are in Stromgarde, and Alleria's a High elf, and was instrumental in saving the Alliance in Lordaeron.
And since they're not a playable race, of course they're less represented than the playable ones.

I can provide sources if you like showing that historically the high elfs were reluctant of their allegiance to the Alliance.

Some were. Others like Alleria, Talthressar or Vereesa weren't reluctant of their first allegiance to the Alliance.

Vareesa is more associated with the Kirin Tor than the Alliance.

No. You're just blatantly wrong.

For the record, I counseled against trusting any Horde in this campaign. I have lost a husband and a King to the treachery of the Horde.

- Vereesa in Legion.

A neutral Kirin Tor member puts his allegiance to Council of 6, or to its leader, not to the Alliance High King.
Vereesa considered Varian to be her king. She isn't more associated with the Kirin Tor in any sort than the Alliance.
And in 3 sisters, she hopes the blood elves will join the Alliance again. An associated Kirin Tor member you said ?

Alleria is further from a high elf than the blood elfs are.

That's your opinion. Blizzard's stance on the subject is she's a high elf. And she is.

[Magnagarde]

One NPC trainer and a handful of NPC only found in Stromgard. Got it. High elfs heavily present in this faction war confirmed.

p.s still more pandaren, gnomes and void elfs present in the war.

While I understand the point you're trying to make, they're right about this. There's been only one void elf before void elves became playable and that's Alleria, not to mention how she doesn't even look like one, but we'll count her. That means that, already by BfA's high elf count - ignoring every high elf Alliance NPC in the past - there's like up to 10x more high elves than there were void elves before they became playable. You got shieldmages at the Arathi warfront's start, then there's a portal master high elf, then there's even more Silver Covenant high elves in the mage tower, then there's Jaina's angels and so on.

The real issue here is not one side being right or wrong here; it is Blizzard being unable to decide whether they want high elves to be represented within the Alliance or not. They keep adding more and more of them to the Alliance. Continously adding high elves to the Alliance, ever since vanilla, while not making them playable makes no sense.

[Anyael]

I know I'm (nearly 500 pages) late to this discussion, but I would love to see High Elves playable on the Alliance. It isn't an aesthetic thing, really, as I have several blood elves and have no problem playing hordeside for aesthetic reasons. I just think it's very clear (at least in previous expansions) that High Elves are strongly identified with the Alliance, and are considered a force of their own. Elisande called out the Quel'Dorei separately from Sin'Dorei and Kaldorei when we attacked the gates.

While I like them and would definitely play them, I wouldn't say I'm diehard - the only reason I come to post here is because the opposite opinion, that High Elves should never be playable, seems like people hold it far too extremely. Why does it matter to you if High Elves become playable on the Alliance? It can't be a silhouette issue, Void Elves already exist. I can't be a "identical (or nearly identical) races on both factions" issue, because Pandaren exist. The only reason I can see for it is spite, that others want it and you don't want them to get what they want.

[Varx]

Future possible eye color options for races in the future huh? How many races have significant differences in their eye color? Looks like only two, nelves and thalasian elves.

Looks like blue eyed options for belves coming soon. And it's supported by lore with the sunwell being both holy and arcane.

Oh boy I cant wait to see the shit storm.

[Strippling]

I know I'm (nearly 500 pages) late to this discussion, but I would love to see High Elves playable on the Alliance. It isn't an aesthetic thing, really, as I have several blood elves and have no problem playing hordeside for aesthetic reasons. I just think it's very clear (at least in previous expansions) that High Elves are strongly identified with the Alliance, and are considered a force of their own. Elisande called out the Quel'Dorei separately from Sin'Dorei and Kaldorei when we attacked the gates.

While I like them and would definitely play them, I wouldn't say I'm diehard - the only reason I come to post here is because the opposite opinion, that High Elves should never be playable, seems like people hold it far too extremely. Why does it matter to you if High Elves become playable on the Alliance? It can't be a silhouette issue, Void Elves already exist. I can't be a "identical (or nearly identical) races on both factions" issue, because Pandaren exist. The only reason I can see for it is spite, that others want it and you don't want them to get what they want.

That's really an unfair remark to make if you haven't read through this thread and seen the points made from both sides. If you're coming here to troll then I suggest you move on and don't add fuel to the already heated debate.

It's not about spite. It's about faction identity. Read through the previous posts before adding snark comments like that next time please.

[Linkedblade]

That doesn't matter. Fact is she is/was High Elf after the restoration of the Snwell and not a member of the Alliance, therefore the difference between Blood Elves and High Elves is not the faction divide.



No it doesn't. There are more options than Horde and Alliance, such as Neutral.



We don't know the percentage of High Elves that are part of the Silver Covenant.
It also doesn't mean the reverse is true as well, that all Dalaran High Elves are Alliance.



Why would the Scryers, who are Blood Elves, oppose their own path ? Seems to me that they deliberately chose their path.



Basically what you are saying is that blue shoes can be distinguished from other color footwear by their color.

Horde Blood Elves are divided from Alliance Humans by the faction divide as well.




That's not true according to Ion Hazzikostas:

"Blood Elves kind of are High Elves with different eye color"-- Ion Hazzikostas April 2018

and

"Eye color is not quite the same but maybe contact lenses in the future, you never know? "-- Ion Hazzikostas April 2018

He mentions eye color as a differentiating factor twice.

For someone who frequently revers to Ion's statements as "word of god", I'm surprised that you seem to ignore this part of his April 2018 Q&A answer.



I used to believe the same thing, but after Ion Hazzikostas statement in April 2018 it seems eye color is a crucial difference.

Yellow eyes were already data-mined in March 2018, a month before he said High Elves and Blood Elves have different eye colors therefore we have to assume he was aware of yellow eyes and therefore it was included in his answer.

Until Blizzard says otherwise or we see clear counter examples we should therefore assume that eye color is one of the differentiating factors between High Elves and Blood Elves, regardless of their organization or faction, even if that conflicts with or requires us to reconsider older lore sources.

- - - Updated - - -



I forgot about the Blood Elves in Telogrus Rift...I guess that means there are non-playable Alliance Blood Elves.

Alleria probably wouldn't allow Void Elves to teach the secrets of the Void to the Horde.

That's a real shame because because the fel causing blood elf eye color to change to green is not cannon.

I always assumed the blue and green duality of blood elf eye colors was the same as gold and silver eye colors of their night elf cousins.

We can chalk this up to the devs not being omniscient of their own lore.

There is no difference between High and Blood Elves. None. Kaelthas renamed the species after the defeat at the sunwell. It's not political. It has nothing to do with horde or alliance alignment.