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  1. #1

    Is the rise of raider.io the fall of ilvl?

    It seems to me like the majority of the community has come to the conclusion that ilvl is meaningless as a gauge of competency in the game based on the large number of people that use raider.io to help them make groups and seem to put little or no weight in to ilvl.

    Players that wish to preform their best and get the most out of their characters sim their gear because often the highest ilvl items are not the best for them. Blizzard has tried for 9? years now to make ilvl the most important number on items and items seem to me to have only gotten more boring having less impact on the way people play the game while losing all the cool RPG elements that gear use to have many years ago.

    So my question is, is it finally time that Blizzard can remove their focus on ilvl? Could Blizzard now go back to a loot system where the secondary states are more easy to understand and dont require everyone to sim their gear every time an item drops?

    I really hope Blizzard moves away from ilvl because I really only gear getting more boring if they try to stick with ilvl. At some point I think the devs will be forced to take all secondary stats off gear to make ilvl work the way they want it to.

  2. #2
    Simming gear has literally nothing to do with ilvl, and everything to do with players wanting the best gear available. ilvl does nothing but give an indicator of "this is this items stat budget".
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  3. #3
    Well, yeah. Unless you're like, 418 or something, ilvl is mostly an indicator of luck. (well, someone at 418 is either lucky as well or just plays a lot) Nowadays it feels like everyone has the same ilvl because gear is so easy to get. Anyone that picks a person for their m+ run based on their ilvl alone when other tools are available is just idiotic.
    Last edited by Season2mask; 2019-03-22 at 10:23 AM.

  4. #4
    I strongly believe raider.io is a consequence of the amount of welfare gear people are getting showered in.
    people have always found ways of filtering players for groups, be it inspecting them in front of dala bank, or gear score, or whatever but it's always been based on gear in the past

  5. #5
    The Undying Lochton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Temis View Post
    It seems to me like the majority of the community has come to the conclusion that ilvl is meaningless as a gauge of competency in the game based on the large number of people that use raider.io to help them make groups and seem to put little or no weight in to ilvl.

    Players that wish to preform their best and get the most out of their characters sim their gear because often the highest ilvl items are not the best for them. Blizzard has tried for 9? years now to make ilvl the most important number on items and items seem to me to have only gotten more boring having less impact on the way people play the game while losing all the cool RPG elements that gear use to have many years ago.

    So my question is, is it finally time that Blizzard can remove their focus on ilvl? Could Blizzard now go back to a loot system where the secondary states are more easy to understand and dont require everyone to sim their gear every time an item drops?

    I really hope Blizzard moves away from ilvl because I really only gear getting more boring if they try to stick with ilvl. At some point I think the devs will be forced to take all secondary stats off gear to make ilvl work the way they want it to.
    Well, not really possible to be the fall of item level.

    Raid.io is a tool used by players, while item level is always going to be there - but all this isn't new at all. We've seen it through the expansions of stupid ideas. Raider.oi is just feeling like a pumped version of gearscore.
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  6. #6
    ilvl and gearscore etc never mattered. for hard content you always had to provide logs.

    but logs are impractical for m+ because the difficulty and affixes change all the time, so the next best thing is "show you have done it", which raider.io aggregates semi-conveniently.

  7. #7
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    Logs, as weak and silly an indicator of ability as they are, still beat out raider.io which is a measure of absolutely nothing except very try-hard shit that other try-hards do. Casuals care about ilvl, try-hards raider.io and logs for badcore players. Good players care nothing for such measures as the demonstration of their ability is sufficient.
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Season2mask View Post
    Well, yeah. Unless you're like, 418 or something, ilvl is mostly an indicator of luck. (well, someone at 418 is either lucky as well or just plays a lot) Nowadays it feels like everyone has the same ilvl because gear is so easy to get. Anyone that picks a person for their m+ run based on their ilvl alone when other tools are available is just idiotic.
    Same can be said for who look only at overall score or highest run completed in time.

    There are a bunch of metrics than can be gauged and a lot of info that can be gained from using r.io fully. Sadly, a majority of players who use r.io religiously don't want to make the effort to do so (based on the discussions in the io threads that pop up here and on reddit at least every other day).

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Temis View Post
    It seems to me like the majority of the community has come to the conclusion that ilvl is meaningless as a gauge of competency in the game based on the large number of people that use raider.io to help them make groups and seem to put little or no weight in to ilvl.

    Players that wish to preform their best and get the most out of their characters sim their gear because often the highest ilvl items are not the best for them. Blizzard has tried for 9? years now to make ilvl the most important number on items and items seem to me to have only gotten more boring having less impact on the way people play the game while losing all the cool RPG elements that gear use to have many years ago.

    So my question is, is it finally time that Blizzard can remove their focus on ilvl? Could Blizzard now go back to a loot system where the secondary states are more easy to understand and dont require everyone to sim their gear every time an item drops?

    I really hope Blizzard moves away from ilvl because I really only gear getting more boring if they try to stick with ilvl. At some point I think the devs will be forced to take all secondary stats off gear to make ilvl work the way they want it to.
    Why do you think this thing is about iLvl in the first place?

    It's not.

    The problem is the abundance of loot and the RNG piled on top. You have like what? Over 10 possible variational outcomes from 1 item of gear you see in a dungeon journal. That IS the PROBLEM.

    Socket, tertiaries, warforged or not, titanforged or not and then a combinatorical mix of all the previous plus the couple of variations between warforged either 5 or 10 etc. etc.

    ilvl is just an indicator. It's fine. If they removed it, which would make 0 sense. There'd be something else to replace it almost instantly, like GearScore if you know what that was. Plus, behind the scenes it always existed anyway.

    Another problem to the bloat is Azerite gear and the difference it makes, plus the neck level that is classified seperately from the ilvl. If your neck level is shit, you can be 410 and be missing about 10K of dps that the other person with traits existing or having proper ones, can do.


    All that combined makes ilvl a somewhat meaningless indicator in regards to performance outcomes. It still maintains a purpose but for judging people, here and there. Raider.io complements it by indicating some sort of capability of the player.

    Simming is a thing again because of the loot problem.

    And overall I think you're question is raised on some false assumptions, because to me, focusing on ilvl isn't a thing. EDIT: As in, focusing on ilvl isn't a thing for Blizzard, from Blizzards perspective.
    Players are a whole different can of worms that half of them don't know what to look for and the other half think they've found the right thing to look for(ilvl) yet in actuality don't really know what they're looking for.
    Last edited by Huzzaa; 2019-03-22 at 11:42 AM.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by ToxicFlame View Post
    I strongly believe raider.io is a consequence of the amount of welfare gear people are getting showered in.
    people have always found ways of filtering players for groups, be it inspecting them in front of dala bank, or gear score, or whatever but it's always been based on gear in the past
    If it was not raider.io, it would be something else. So yes, raider.io is a consequences of gear, which was used an indicator.

    In the end, it all boils down to some section of the player base do not want to mix with others and they will find some way to segregate themselves, right now is raider.io. If Blizzard breaks it, it will be something else.

  11. #11
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    I hope not.

    If the only way to get into a raid is having a high raider io score or being in a guild then I just won’t raid. Just like I don’t do Mythic+ right now (Although in part that’s because I don’t enjoy Mythic+).

    Ilvl requirements at least give me a goal I can reach and strive for in-game rather than some arbitrary third party score that requires you to do a thing before you can actually do that same thing.

    If anything I want to see raider.io shut down by Blizzard.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Sansnom View Post
    If it was not raider.io, it would be something else. So yes, raider.io is a consequences of gear, which was used an indicator.

    In the end, it all boils down to some section of the player base do not want to mix with others and they will find some way to segregate themselves, right now is raider.io. If Blizzard breaks it, it will be something else.
    I clearly stated in my post that "[people] will find some way to segregate themselves". only that before tf/wf and welfare gear it used to be a segregation based on gear rather than external metrics

  13. #13
    ilvl was meaningless long time before the raider.io

  14. #14
    For M+ yeah. People shouldn't be using IO for raiding though since the skillset used in both are pretty different.

    That said, I'd say a higher IO score is more impressive than high mythic prog. Any player can get carried to Cutting Edge while I'd say getting 2k io (especially higher) takes some work.

    The problem is that WF/TF means any Joe Schmoe can be 420 iLvl so that's useless to look at. I mean hell I'm only 411 iLvl and yet I'm 6/9M and over 2k IO. There are plenty of people with easy worse mythic prog and IO that shit on my iLvl cuz they get tons of TF gear.
    Still wondering why I play this game.
    I'm a Rogue and I also made a spreadsheet for the Order Hall that is updated for BfA.

  15. #15
    Giving out absurd amounts of ilv killed ilv. People who sucked still suck how there just isn't a safety net and they have a hard time coming to terms with it.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Temis View Post
    So my question is, is it finally time that Blizzard can remove their focus on ilvl? Could Blizzard now go back to a loot system where the secondary states are more easy to understand and dont require everyone to sim their gear every time an item drops?

    I really hope Blizzard moves away from ilvl because I really only gear getting more boring if they try to stick with ilvl. At some point I think the devs will be forced to take all secondary stats off gear to make ilvl work the way they want it to.
    The ilvl system will continue to work well for the vast majority of players who need some sort of personal measurement system to see how they're doing. Those relative few that are pushing M+ and doing higher level organized raiding will, as always, use other tools that will help them exclude the unworthy.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeula View Post
    I hope not.

    If the only way to get into a raid is having a high raider io score or being in a guild then I just won’t raid. Just like I don’t do Mythic+ right now (Although in part that’s because I don’t enjoy Mythic+).

    Ilvl requirements at least give me a goal I can reach and strive for in-game rather than some arbitrary third party score that requires you to do a thing before you can actually do that same thing.

    If anything I want to see raider.io shut down by Blizzard.
    I don't want to see it shut down, but I'm biased. I've known one of the people associated ( @Ulsoga ) since before WoW was even a thing that most people knew was going to be released. So on one hand I like seeing raider.io being successful.

    On the other I really don't like what it's done to the M+ community, but that's not Raider.IO's fault, that's players using things in a way that's inappropriate. It's obscene overkill to use raider.io for anything below a certain threshold, but people are going to do it anyway. It's like GearScore, there was nothing really inherently wrong with GearScore, it's how people used it.

    Honestly if you don't like raider.io, don't use it. Make your own groups and don't set any requirements based on raider.io. That's what I do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mighty Tim View Post
    Giving out absurd amounts of ilv killed ilv. People who sucked still suck how there just isn't a safety net and they have a hard time coming to terms with it.
    They're not giving out "absurd amounts of ilvl" - Your ilvl is determined by the content you do. Someone that only does say normal or heroic is going to have much lower ilevel than someone that does Mythic, unless they're also doing a shitload of M+, in which case they deserve the high ilevel because that's how the system is designed to work. Plebs aren't running around in super high level gear from low content, that myth really needs to die.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    That's really it though. The level of stratification stops there. Someone who does normal doesn't have any higher ilvl than someone who never does. And someone who does Heroic will only have a slightly higher ilvl than those who don't
    Define "slightly" - It's 15 ilevels between difficulties. Even with your 1-2 pieces of TF gear that's not going to make up that difference, and a 15 ilevel difference is quite significant in terms of performance. Again, you're not going to have enough pieces that TF high enough specifically from low content to make up that difference. The frequency just isn't there.

    Now if a normal raider, a heroic raider, and a non-raider all do the same level of M+ their ilevel will be similar, and why shouldn't they? They're doing the same content there. As an alternative to raiding, M+ works great, except on the very high end.
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    I don't want to see it shut down, but I'm biased. I've known one of the people associated ( @Ulsoga ) since before WoW was even a thing that most people knew was going to be released. So on one hand I like seeing raider.io being successful.

    On the other I really don't like what it's done to the M+ community, but that's not Raider.IO's fault, that's players using things in a way that's inappropriate. It's obscene overkill to use raider.io for anything below a certain threshold, but people are going to do it anyway. It's like GearScore, there was nothing really inherently wrong with GearScore, it's how people used it.

    Honestly if you don't like raider.io, don't use it. Make your own groups and don't set any requirements based on raider.io. That's what I do.



    They're not giving out "absurd amounts of ilvl" - Your ilvl is determined by the content you do. Someone that only does say normal or heroic is going to have much lower ilevel than someone that does Mythic, unless they're also doing a shitload of M+, in which case they deserve the high ilevel because that's how the system is designed to work. Plebs aren't running around in super high level gear from low content, that myth really needs to die.
    When you say much more quantify that. Usually in a few weeks they are maybe 10 or so ilvs apart.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I have a character that does not raid, does not do M+ and has an ilvl of 399. No really high TFs either.
    I'd love to see how you managed that, actually. PvP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mighty Tim View Post
    When you say much more quantify that. Usually in a few weeks they are maybe 10 or so ilvs apart.
    That is a significant difference in a character's ability to perform their role. 10 ilevels is enough to completely trivialize content. When world first guilds go apeshit to try to get every leg up over the competition it's usually for significantly less than 10 ilevels. It may not seem like a significant number, but in terms of character power it absolutely is.
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