Preach on the broken gear treadmill

[rohoz]

Learn to play? Im against welfare in wow...

Welfare has always been part of the game. Learn to play it.

[Gaidax]

I just dont think welfare epics add any value to the game. They dont encourage “bad” players to become better.

In relation to alts Blizzard should add a system based on the progress of mains instead.

And why exactly a game needs to encourage "bad" players to become "better" (i.e. doing shit you consider "the right way to play wow")?

WoW is a big game and vast majority of players don't even raid at all, because they either don't give a flying fuck about it or don't have time/will to do it. It's ok to toss these people one or two pieces of gear once in a while to keep them interested without obligations and I personally as raider don't see what's oh so terrible about it or why people like you are so hellbent on turning a bloody game - an entertainment - into some sort of educational institution.

Heck, if anything, I'm interested in casuals getting these bit pieces of shitty ilvl 400 gear here and there to keep them interested, because ultimately it's the casual majority that pays for these Mythic raids I do for many years.

[Zantera]

I kinda agree that the one 400 ilvl piece you get from the warfront every 3 weeks definitely isn't the issue. Especially considering if that's the main source of income for gear (for a casual) it will take the player 5-6 months to be decked out in 400 unless they do other content, especially as with every new unique piece you get, you get closer to getting a 400 for a slot you already had. Also just from my own personal experience the best geared players I come across and play with are the ones who put time into the game and play it a lot (m+ spamming, mythic raiding etc) so IMO the gear 99% of the time reflects effort put in.

[f4ncybear]

Interesting how Warfront is the center of attention when Weekly Conquest is the true welfare paradise - guaranteed 400 in every slot before forging after 25 weeks.

[Daffan]

I remember in bc how players were upset that the last boss in 5 mans dropped a guaranteed epic. That was welfare epics.

No way did ppl really complain about that, it was entry level gear just with purple color.

When it did start happening for real was IoQ. I remember getting home after work and running my daily H MGT on my mage. I actually quit in June or July of 2008 and didn't come back for ages because of it, I didin't know specifically at the time what my problem with the game was but looking back H MGT completely ruined every other piece of content bar Sunwell and I wasn't up to Sunwell so the game got condensed into nothing for me.

Not only did H MGT make other gear 'outdated' by proxy of existing (A problem you can't circumvent) but also obsolete because H MGT was so much faster and easier then any raid.

[Kaver]

And why exactly a game needs to encourage "bad" players to become "better" (i.e. doing shit you consider "the right way to play wow")?

WoW is a big game and vast majority of players don't even raid at all, because they either don't give a flying fuck about it or don't have time/will to do it. It's ok to toss these people one or two pieces of gear once in a while to keep them interested without obligations and I personally as raider don't see what's oh so terrible about it or why people like you are so hellbent on turning a bloody game - an entertainment - into some sort of educational institution.

Heck, if anything, I'm interested in casuals getting these bit pieces of shitty ilvl 400 gear here and there to keep them interested, because ultimately it's the casual majority that pays for these Mythic raids I do for many years.

I just think there is a massive outgearing of content in general which imo is not healthy for the game. There is no need for a player who does heroic raids and m +10 keys to run around in 410+ gear. It doesn't help anyone. It has no positive effects. Only negatives. Imo.

[Sansnom]

I just think there is a massive outgearing of content in general which imo is not healthy for the game. There is no need for a player who does heroic raids and m +10 keys to run around in 410+ gear. It doesn't help anyone. It has no positive effects. Only negatives. Imo.

I do not see how a player in 410 gears brings negativity to the game and a player in sub 400 gear does not.

[Mighty Tim]

I do not see how a player in 410 gears brings negativity to the game and a player in sub 400 gear does not.

Make a pug group without raider io.

[Kaver]

I do not see how a player in 410 gears brings negativity to the game and a player in sub 400 gear does not.

I think outgearing content is negative. It's a little bit like playing games with cheat codes. People will never get better at the game if they just get gear that allow them to completely faceroll everything.

[f4ncybear]

I think outgearing content is negative. It's a little bit like playing games with cheat codes.

You call it outgearing, Blizzard calls it soft nerf to content. Ion said in Q&A that titanforging exists so hardstuck trash can get better gear doing same content and move on.

[ablib]

Advertising YouTube channels should be prohibited here. I see no other reason for the title of this thread, or what little substantive original thought the OP has.

[Sansnom]

I think outgearing content is negative. It's a little bit like playing games with cheat codes.

Interesting comment on the playing with cheat codes.

Pretty much every dungeon or raid groups expect people to have prior knowledge of the instances. The boss mechanics. There are plenty of video raid guides available. There are mods given out warnings of incoming attack.

All these are expected from others and is considered to be the norm. Outside of a few guilds at the very top of the progression virtually no guilds raid blind with no assist.

People will never get better at the game if they just get gear that allow them to completely faceroll everything.

People play to the level they are comfortable with. And people will faceroll if they can across all spectrum of the skill level. People are only interested in gear, despite what they claim otherwise. Take gear away and they will stop.

[redf]

Make a pug group without raider io.

do it all the time. always finish no problems

i dont give a shit about the cancer that is raiderio

[Kaver]

Interesting comment on the playing with cheat codes.

Pretty much every dungeon or raid groups expect people to have prior knowledge of the instances. The boss mechanics. There are plenty of video raid guides available. There are mods given out warnings of incoming attack.

All these are expected from others and is considered to be the norm. Outside of a few guilds at the very top of the progression virtually no guilds raid blind with no assist.



People play to the level they are comfortable with. And people will faceroll if they can across all spectrum of the skill level. People are only interested in gear, despite what they claim otherwise. Take gear away and they will stop.

Players who only do heroic dont need 410 gear and players who only do normal dont need 400 gear. Players get a lot of gear which they don't have any use for.

[tratra]

I am over 40 years old and I have never EVER seen a shred of evidence for this. And believe me, I've heard people lament this in the 1970s, 80s, 90s, 00s, and today. In my experience, kids want the exact same sort of entertainment they've always wanted. What changed was the GAME, not the kids. Blizzard has destroyed WoW by streamlining everything and simplifying everything and removing all the social elements.

Blizzard destroyed battle.net and tried to remove ALL chat channels from their games. In response, the kids made several protest threads on their forums, begging to get socialization back into the games. Blizzard utterly refused. The kids DIDN'T CHANGE. They finally threw up their hands, left, and congregated on Discord instead. They still want socialization. They now just are forced to go to Discord to get it because Blizzard took it away. And of course they don't come to Blizzard now as much so all of Blizz's titles suffer.

But the kids didn't change at all....

no you have no idea what fun is for the new generations... believe me. For the past 4 years, I've been involved in countless researches etc with my startup which a big chunk of our clientbase are kids 8 to 16 y/o. You can't even understand the way they communicate.

I was a bit of the same as you when I first started this project thinking oh ye am a guy in my mid 30s fine... I won't have an issue communicating with kids etc, after all I use instagram, I use snapchat here and there and all the shit kids are using nowadays. Am not as disconnected as e.g a person that is in his mid 50s or a person in his 70s.

You can't even imagine how wrong I was. Kids nowadays don't even use text to communicate... they use photos and emojis. And thats just the current generation. Imagine the next generation. I was shocked and kinda changed my mind a lot about it. Point is that as a mid 30's person and involved into a product that has preteens and teens as its customers I can tell you: NO you don't understand how the market works. And definitely kids nowadays dont wanna play a game like wow was, so blizzard is trying to evolve it to something kids would like to without them being successful.

[KaPe]

You call it outgearing, Blizzard calls it soft nerf to content. Ion said in Q&A that titanforging exists so hardstuck trash can get better gear doing same content and move on.

Does it really do that? Previously, you'd get clear +15ilvl upgrades for killing bosses on harder difficulties, so you'd eventually reach a point where you'd overgear the stuff you were progressing on. Right now, it's a total lottery. Maybe you'll get an upgrade, maybe you won't, maybe stuff from easier content is better because it has a socket.

Hell, Mythic level items actually cannot Titanforge because the cap is only +10. If this is their way of balancing difficulty, they should have gone back to Uldir - at least Reorigination Array offered a clear upgrade every week that didn't depend on any luck.

[Raysz]

Doesn't this apply to, I don't know, pretty much everyone who has written a single comment in this thread? That would mean you would hate every single person in this thread, and probably a lot more people who have yet to comment. Or no, I guess your hatred actually stems from him NOT being just one voice in the crowd on a fanboy forum that you can just ignore. It's because he puts a lot of effort into making his voice heard and because people willingly give their money to support it that you dislike him.

Yeah, the difference is, he has a large, mostly salty following. He's feeding the negativity, link me a video where he has nothing negative to say, I dare you. He knows he'll get more views being negative, riding the hate train. He's monetizing negativity with hardly any nuance, that's why I don't like the guy, and he's a hypocrite on top of that.

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The very way how gearing works is not an opinion. It's a fact. You can't argue with that. His opinion is that he doesn't like it. You are of course entitled to your own opinion, but just how gearing works remains a fact.

I don't have a problem with facts, I have a problem with using facts to create an allround negative atmosphere. He may not like the facts, which is fine, but his use of hyperbole and lack of nuance is not helping. His overall tone in most if not all of his video's is just negative. Like I said before, he knows very well that riding the hate train nets him more views and more cash. Main reason I can't stand the guy.

Anyway, I'm done with this discussion. I can see why he's popular on MMO Champ as this is the meeting spot for salty ex-Wow players looking for justification for their decision to quit the game or hate it.

[Soon-TM]

Yeah, the difference is, he has a large, mostly salty following. He's feeding the negativity, link me a video where he has nothing negative to say, I dare you. He knows he'll get more views being negative, riding the hate train. He's monetizing negativity with hardly any nuance, that's why I don't like the guy, and he's a hypocrite on top of that.

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I don't have a problem with facts, I have a problem with using facts to create an allround negative atmosphere. He may not like the facts, which is fine, but his use of hyperbole and lack of nuance is not helping. His overall tone in most if not all of his video's is just negative. Like I said before, he knows very well that riding the hate train nets him more views and more cash. Main reason I can't stand the guy.

Anyway, I'm done with this discussion. I can see why he's popular on MMO Champ as this is the meeting spot for salty ex-Wow players looking for justification for their decision to quit the game or hate it.

If he can do that, it's maybe because things aren't as pretty as you'd like them to be. Don't worry, it happens a lot, you'll be ok /pat

Btw, congratulations for your underlined ad hominem. Now I know that you have no real arguments

[Whiskra]

Yeah, the difference is, he has a large, mostly salty following. He's feeding the negativity, link me a video where he has nothing negative to say, I dare you. He knows he'll get more views being negative, riding the hate train. He's monetizing negativity with hardly any nuance, that's why I don't like the guy, and he's a hypocrite on top of that.

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I don't have a problem with facts, I have a problem with using facts to create an allround negative atmosphere. He may not like the facts, which is fine, but his use of hyperbole and lack of nuance is not helping. His overall tone in most if not all of his video's is just negative. Like I said before, he knows very well that riding the hate train nets him more views and more cash. Main reason I can't stand the guy.

Anyway, I'm done with this discussion. I can see why he's popular on MMO Champ as this is the meeting spot for salty ex-Wow players looking for justification for their decision to quit the game or hate it.

It's called having a balanced opinion. Everything has good and bad things about them. Only focusing on the good while completely ignoring the bad is dishonest and is not going to help further the game in any way, and it's not gonna spark any discussion. It will only satisfy people like you who wants to have shaders over their eyes to confirm your own opinions. Making such videos would be completely pointless.

[Aliven]

Players who only do heroic dont need 410 gear and players who only do normal dont need 400 gear. Players get a lot of gear which they don't have any use for.

It is not for you to decide. They have use for it, they kill shit faster and complete challenges easier. They not only find use for those items but they earned them.