Mega-Thread: Mueller investigation

[Bodakane]

If she's got nothing to hide, why'd she delete emails....says the people that are ok with Trump not releasing his tax returns and Barr not releasing the Mueller report.

[Toppy]

Seeing a lot of stuff about the media having made stuff up about Trump and that they should be punished for it.

What the hell did they make up? This happening doesnt excuse all the stupid shit Trump directly said.

[Vatrilian]

Is anyone else here bothered by the fact that DOJ policy is essentially a siting president is above the law?

But the report ignored that premise.
"After reviewing the Special Counsel’s final report on these issues… Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein and I have concluded that the evidence developed during the Special Counsel’s investigation is not sufficient to establish that the President committed an obstruction-of-justice offense."
"Our determination was made without regard to, and is not based on, the constitutional considerations that surround the indictment and criminal prosecution of a sitting president."

[Hobb]

No collusion. No obstruction as there is no underlying crime. Total victory.

Actually that's not true on the no obstruction charge. That was Trump henchman Barr who removed it as a possible charge, not Muller.

[Nadiru]

I imagine it'll be one of the first things looked at by the next Dem administration.

While the Dems are in power? Fat chance of that. More likely they'll pretend that the Presidency will never again be captured by the Republicans and expand executive powers.

[Orbitus]

I must say that 2 years of "collusions" was much more fun then the "birth certificate" period. The Democrats outdid them selfs this time hehehe

Well, the Birth Certificate bullshit was pushed by Trump, even after both Obama's birth certificates were released, and it was pushed heavily by right wing nut jobs and conspiracy theorists. So I don't know why you are attributing it to Democrats. And the collusion thing isn't a fucking conspiracy, considering it doesn't conclude that since it doesn't conclude ANYTHING.

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But the report ignored that premise.
"After reviewing the Special Counsel’s final report on these issues… Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein and I have concluded that the evidence developed during the Special Counsel’s investigation is not sufficient to establish that the President committed an obstruction-of-justice offense."
"Our determination was made without regard to, and is not based on, the constitutional considerations that surround the indictment and criminal prosecution of a sitting president."

Barr is just defending Trump. We know he obstructed justice, just by what his statement said about not knowing about the Trump Tower collusion meeting, saying it was about adoptions, when it was made to get dirt on Hillary Clinton.

[Vatrilian]

Actually that's not true on the no obstruction charge. That was Trump henchman Barr who removed it as a possible charge, not Muller.

Mueller left it up to the discretion of the attorney general and his deputies. Barr is not a henchmen or hoax, but a well respected attorney general with a distinguished career. That's how these things work. You need an underlying crime for obstruction. There is no crime here. This was a total hoax and I am glad the President is vindicated.

[CostinR]

Barr is just defending Trump. We know he obstructed justice, just by what his statement said about not knowing about the Trump Tower collusion meeting, saying it was about adoptions, when it was made to get dirt on Hillary Clinton.

Mueller was uncertain on the charge, he did not say Trump obstructed justice, nor did he say he didn't. I'm sure people will argue this to death.

So anyway Mueller, with all the information presented to him made it clear: Trump did not collude with Russia.

[Breccia]

So, a four-page summary in which the AG says "Trump was not personally involved with collusion". Hmm.

Well, let's for now assume that's correct. This is not so much good news, as lack of bad news, for Trump. We already know about the many Russian agents he chose to hire and act as his most trusted confidants. So this is less "Trump didn't do it" as much as "Trump didn't know his team was doing it".

There's also the question of why he chose to fight Russian sanctions, cede Syria to Russia, refuse to fight Russian election interference, choose to ignore his intelligence community citing Russian interference, taking illegal Russian money through the NRA, taking illegal Russian money through his inauguration, the Trump Tower meetings, the Trump Tower Moscow meetings, Trump talking with Putin then taking the translator's notes, Trump taking Putin at his word about Russian interference and doing so in public, Trump weakening NATO, Trump weakening the UN, and Trump basically lying about all of that while claiming no puppet no puppet you're the puppet wouldn't it be nice if we got along with Putin?

And, with this out of the way, Trump can run on his record of not only coddling Putin's dick in his mouth while hiring multiple Russian agents, but also his record of a declining economy, the lack of farm/coal/manufacturing jobs he promised, the lack of opioid result he promised, the lack of better health care for more people for less money he promised, the tax cut for the rich backfiring, failing with NK, coddling Saudi Arabian dictators, multiple family members failing their security clearances, firing a record number of people, failing to hire a record number of people, signing a record deficit/debt despite promising to do the opposite, watching WH members and Congresspeople leave their jobs to spend more time with their lobbying firm despite promising otherwise, the Wall still not being built, being laughed out of the UN, concentration camps killing children on US soil, and literal Nazis with torches marching in the street and murdering people.

But at least Barr says Mueller says he can't prove Trump personally colluded with Russia.

[Toppy]

What a waste!

If you ignore that the investigation did find that many members of Trumps staff were seeking collusion
Or that the investigation also found that Russia tampered with the election.
Or that the investigation also found many abuses of power in the government.
Or that Barr is a stooge who wont release the report and is known for in the past saying the investigation was worthless.

TOTAL WASTE. WITCH HUNT. BUZZ WORD BUZZ WORD BUZZ WORD.

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Mueller left it up to the discretion of the attorney general and his deputies. Barr is not a henchmen or hoax, but a well respected attorney general with a distinguished career. That's how these things work. You need an underlying crime for obstruction. There is no crime here. This was a total hoax and I am glad the President is vindicated.

Totally distinguished and not a henchmen

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/24/polit...ler/index.html

[Orbitus]

Mueller left it up to the discretion of the attorney general and his deputies. Barr is not a henchmen or hoax, but a well respected attorney general with a distinguished career. That's how these things work. You need an underlying crime for obstruction. There is no crime here. This was a total hoax and I am glad the President is vindicated.

Barr is absolutely a henchman to Trump. He is a shit AG that helped pardon the people involved in the Iran-Contra bullshit during Bush's term as president.

[Vatrilian]

What a waste!

If you ignore that the investigation did find that many members of Trumps staff were seeking collusion
Or that the investigation also found that Russia tampered with the election.
Or that the investigation also found many abuses of power in the government.
Or that Barr is a stooge who wont release the report and is known for in the past saying the investigation was worthless.

TOTAL WASTE. WITCH HUNT. BUZZ WORD BUZZ WORD BUZZ WORD.

"The Special Counsel did not find that the Trump campaign, or anyone associated with it, conspired or coordinated" with Russians who worked on those hacking efforts, according to Barr's letter, "despite multiple offers from Russian-affiliated individuals to assist the Trump campaign."

[steristumpie]

Innocent until proven guilty
Guilty until proven innocent
Guilty even after proven innocent! F*ck yeah, these are the true liberal democratic values!

The Kavanaugh effect.

[Orbitus]

Mueller was uncertain on the charge, he did not say Trump obstructed justice, nor did he say he didn't. I'm sure people will argue this to death.

So anyway Mueller, with all the information presented to him made it clear: Trump did not collude with Russia.

Really? Where does it say that? Because he absolutely tried to.

[Toppy]

"The Special Counsel did not find that the Trump campaign, or anyone associated with it, conspired or coordinated" with Russians who worked on those hacking efforts, according to Barr's letter, "despite multiple offers from Russian-affiliated individuals to assist the Trump campaign."

So those indictments are nothing now? Good to know that Trump and his staff are above the law.

[Nadiru]

What a waste!

If you ignore that the investigation did find that many members of Trumps staff were seeking collusion
Or that the investigation also found that Russia tampered with the election.
Or that the investigation also found many abuses of power in the government.
Or that Barr is a stooge who wont release the report and is known for in the past saying the investigation was worthless.

TOTAL WASTE. WITCH HUNT. BUZZ WORD BUZZ WORD BUZZ WORD.

Russian tampering is only related to Trump collusion if anyone actually discovered that it was the case, which was one of the points of the Special Counsel in the first place. Discovering Russian interference without collusion was always the likely outcome, and you ought to be pleased that while Trump is a blowhard and a bad person, he's not a foreign agent.

[Ripster42]

What does it matter? He's still not getting charged with any crime. And just another opportunity for Trump to spin it and gaslight everyone.

You don't think it's relevant that the standard of proof of "beyond a reasonable doubt" might not have been met (and again, we don't actually know this because of who barr is and his beliefs about the limits of presidential power), but the standard of "clear and convincing" (or preponderance of the evidence) could be met w/out charges being filed? You don't think your average voter would want to know that? How convincing would the evidence have to be to affect your vote?

For that matter, how convincing would the evidence have to be for you to support impeachment and conviction? It shouldn't be "beyond a reasonable doubt." The penalty for impeachment and conviction isn't imprisonment. The impeached party would still get another trial after they've been impeached before they serve time. In civil court, the standard of proof isn't "beyond a reasonable doubt" or even "clear and convincing." It's just preponderance of the evidence. I urge you to remember that the process of impeachment is a political process. With bill clinton there was clearly proof "beyond a reasonable doubt" that he committed perjury. Because the perjury was about something so benign as to whether or not he had an affair, he wasn't convicted.

So I ask again, how strong does the evidence need to be that the president of the united states colluding with foreign states (or committing obstruction of justice that benefits a foreign state) for help to get elected and selling our foreign policy for you to not want that liability as president? This isn't as if it's through carelessness, but by corrupt intent. It's not something minor, like an affair, but the legitimacy of our democracy itself.

[Orbitus]

"The Special Counsel did not find that the Trump campaign, or anyone associated with it, conspired or coordinated" with Russians who worked on those hacking efforts, according to Barr's letter, "despite multiple offers from Russian-affiliated individuals to assist the Trump campaign."

The fact that his dumbass son, campaign manager, and son in law took that meeting in Trump Tower, based on getting dirt on Hillary Clinton, means that Barr is a Trump knob gobbler.

[Hobb]

Mueller left it up to the discretion of the attorney general and his deputies. Barr is not a henchmen or hoax, but a well respected attorney general with a distinguished career. That's how these things work. You need an underlying crime for obstruction. There is no crime here. This was a total hoax and I am glad the President is vindicated.

Yes, he's a henchman. Trump keep replacing his AG until he found one who would be willing to interfere with the investigation. Barr himself said the president is above the law, which pretty much states how things were going to turn out.

[CostinR]

Really? Where does it say that? Because he absolutely tried to.

In the report? Mueller basically didn't draw a conclusion. He didn't find Trump guilty nor did he find innocent.