#MorallyGrey

[Dagoth Ur]

The meta reason is probably the writers wanted to introduce M.O.T.H.E.R and she is gonna do something important more later that will end up saving Azeroth or calling the keepers and throw some speech about sacrifice and give up their life to save Azeroth. Also maybe throw a hint the arcane guys aren't good guys either with bluring more the arcane magic being able to create a chatoic being like G'huun(yes we know they wanted to seek a way to destroy then without harming Azeroth but they didn't introduced a self destruction device to finish him off if he were about the escape)

There's also that loose end with Odyn going to Ulduar. Kinda makes me wonder if they'll connect that and M.O.T.H.E.R's trip to Silithus.

[Jastall]

While I have huge issues with SC2, with that new version of the SC1 in SC2 fan remake coming out I've been thinking about it more along the same lines. Valerian is a better Anduin than Anduin is and Alarak was a much more fun token evil teammate than Sylvanas has been in this one. But what I'm getting at with my spiel is that the Forsaken weren't broken and didn't need fixing. The Forsaken are effectively victims of the whitewashing of literally everyone else, especially those they're most connected to, like Genn or Stormwind. Blizzard just needed to focus on the positives of their portrayal if they were going to have them be such a prominent part - more on the experience of what it is to be undead and acclimatizing to that kind of existence and not neuter their foes. The Forsaken simply don't work if their entire premise, down to their name, is false.

Come to think of it, what would've been a better way to do this, albeit still unnecessary, would have been Sylvanas attempting to implement the BTS changes to their society rather than them being retconned in, and have her go hyper-paternalistic and obsessive as she is characterized now. Except then have the Forsaken themselves be at the forefront of self-correction rather than implying they need an intravenous dosage of muh honor or human potential to change into something acceptable, i.e completely different. I don't agree that what happened with Derek was some kind of great atrocity, but if we were to take it at face value, Baine should not be the one who gives more of a shit about supposed Forsaken values than actual Forsaken, notwithstanding a guy who only joined five minutes ago.

Valerian is indeed a better Anduin. He has credible doubts, the world doesn't bend over backwards to accommodate him, he learns and grows as he fails some of his enterprises, and even some of his own subordinates tell him to take a hike when he has a stupid idea. And fun is indeed an aspect that makes Alarak a much better character, alongside a voice actor that does a tremendous job while Sylvanas's sounds like nails on a chalkboard. Her VA in WC3 was a hundred times better.

[Super Dickmann]

Valerian is indeed a better Anduin. He has credible doubts, the world doesn't bend over backwards to accommodate him, he learns and grows as he fails some of his enterprises, and even some of his own subordinates tell him to take a hike when he has a stupid idea. And fun is indeed an aspect that makes Alarak a much better character, alongside a voice actor that does a tremendous job while Sylvanas's sounds like nails on a chalkboard. Her VA in WC3 was a hundred times better.

I agree with the majority that Kerrigan's SC1 VA is better than the SC2 one, but I actually prefer the new Sylvanas VA to the old one. The only time she was bad imo was in Wrath, when she was still getting used to the role. I do think her direction has changed a bit, they're telling her to ham it up more, but I don't mind that too much. The only remotely entertaining thing about current Sylvanas is when she goes full wicked witch. Valerian having to deal with public unrest, compromise and not always getting his way while still being out for everyone's wellbeing is what I like with him. Also that, while the races all agreeing in the end is a really galling aspect of the story all around, the fact that he's more enlightened despot who's legitimately benevolent than a flower child works to his favor.

[Khaza-R]

snippy
Imo is worse than Sindragosa . . . My Horde characters made a point to avoid the damn towers so I didn't get my ears assaulted.

snip

I like them both tbh.

Although new Sylvanas does have more depth in her voice. In my opinion you can pick up more nuance in her expressions than then the old VA

[Eggroll]

Children of the grave, heed my call!
In life, we suffered unspeakable tragedies.
We watched as our homes were razed to the ground.
We cried out in agony as our families were cut down before our eyes.

There is no place for weakness in our ranks.

If they are not weak, why don't they have the guts to die for good? Like Sylvanas she is too cowardly to face death. How is that not weak?

[Super Dickmann]

Imo is worse than Sindragosa . . . My Horde characters made a point to avoid the damn towers so I didn't get my ears assaulted.

The new VA has more range. Anyone would be ear poison when they're screeching the same line a million times. But for instance, just her delivery of the "Can't I?" line goes over the old VA and she's better at the hammy elements of the role.

[Powerogue]

We also have no idea where Ra is.

Well the blood elves have got to be getting those blood golems from somewhere. They had that nice convenient chamber for imprisoning and draining godlike beings, why not reuse it?

(headcanon until proven otherwise!)

[Super Dickmann]

She is TOO hammy. The VA is perfect for mustache twirling villain Sylvanas. I am just still trying to imagine the Sylvanas from the cinematic, before "I commit genocide when triggered", where she actually looks happy that Anduin and the Alliance can give her a fight (heck that smile she had at that point was exactly the idea of Honor in battle the Horde is supposed to be about).

While she excels at the ham, she can also do the quiet thing very well. The one thing she can't do, and this is really a thing that very few women can do, is raise her voice and do a standard fantasy inspiring speech.

[Maxilian]

undead. are. not. a. race.
they are the afflicted.
they are humans, who died and got brought back.
they have no distinct culture, they are literally damned by default by becoming undead.

They do have a distinct culture though.

The undead damning them? we still not sure about that, but if that were the case, then yes, you may be right

[Friendlyimmolation]

While she excels at the ham, she can also do the quiet thing very well. The one thing she can't do, and this is really a thing that very few women can do, is raise her voice and do a standard fantasy inspiring speech.

It doesn't help when simply raising one's voice can cause walls to tremble either, so it can be explained In universe that she doesn't want to yell out and deafen/ruin buildings/ fuck over construction whenever she's talking, so she resorts to sarcasm and other tones of voice to get her feelings across.

[Maxilian]

If they are not weak, why don't they have the guts to die for good? Like Sylvanas she is too cowardly to face death. How is that not weak?

Well... the Forsaken would have killed themself if Sylvanas would have stayed dead in Icecrown (at least that's what the Valkyr made us believe), also.... what's cowardly of not wanting eternal pain and suffering? is stupid to assume that wanting to evade that is because you're a coward, either way, i'm not saying that she's right.

[Maxilian]

Ultimately Sylvanas' initial motivation, revenge against the one who did this to them, made sense. BUT the issue is what came after. I do wonder what would happen if Sylvanas had shared that what followed was the void and eternal torment to the rest of the Forsaken. On one hand it makes raising new Forsaken abominable. On the other it gives those who exist a reason to survive at all costs.

Yeah, i mean... for me, the only "excuse" (not that good) that she could have for all this, is that everyone is going to eventually go there and suffer eternally, and she have found a way to pluck the whole and free everyone (those that are already in and those that are not) from that torment, and even then... is still questionable (as she's pushing a lot of people to that torment -even if its temporal- with the war)

Heck, even if that's the reason, depending how it is shown, it's silly, i mean... why not say that from the beginning? she could have the Horde on her side, i mean, if Saurfang knew that his son is in that toment (and he is cause all DKs are "doomed" to that) he would help her.

[Super Dickmann]

Ultimately Sylvanas' initial motivation, revenge against the one who did this to them, made sense. BUT the issue is what came after. I do wonder what would happen if Sylvanas had shared that what followed was the void and eternal torment to the rest of the Forsaken. On one hand it makes raising new Forsaken abominable. On the other it gives those who exist a reason to survive at all costs.

She has told her Dark Rangers at least. When one in the Ally war campaign kicks the bucket, she remarks with shock that she now sees what Sylvanas was trying to save them from. I disagree on the last point though. If hell is the default, then it actually gives Sylvanas' views at least some animu villain tier logic to it, since undeath is preferable to burning in hell forever.

I don't really have an issue with Sylvanas' motive shift. I actually prefer the Forsaken after they'd reassessed their views on undeath, since you could have both the old and new style incorporated and the whole idea of consensually joining them opened a huge range of possibilities. Sylvanas only really faltered in one instance pre-BFA in terms of characterization, that being SoO, where she was basically the petulant comically evil version we have now.

@Friendlyimmolation

I mean the VA, not Sylvanas the character. Though as said this is me trying to take a more neutral position, I think she has a lot of range in most cases, but she's worst at the yelling part. The one major exception is her "For the Horde" in the cinematic. When she's quieter and more stoic she's consistently solid, as is when she's lowkey mocking like with Genn.

[Maxilian]

Tin foil hat speculation incoming

Muehzala is a Loa of Death described as a formless creature of shadow. Odyn traded an eye to a formless creature of shadow so he could learn the secrets of the Shadowlands. With that knowledge he transformed Helya into what she is now. Helya actually has the ability to control her part of the Shadowlands.

If Sylvanas could control her own area in the Shadowlands, she could draw the souls of the Forsaken there and give them succor.

I have always assumed that Sylvanas will eventually betray Helya to take Helheim for herself and the Forsaken or work with Helya and take that power from Odyn (it failed the first time, but she did mention that she will hunt the Valkyr queen to the Halls of Valor if necessary but i wouldn't be surprised if those were just mere words that Blizzard totally forgot)

[Zandalariprelate]

There's also that loose end with Odyn going to Ulduar. Kinda makes me wonder if they'll connect that and M.O.T.H.E.R's trip to Silithus.

Probably by 8.2 or 8.3 we are gonna see more Keepers with Magni and maybe Odyn sharing some information about the shadowlands which we can get something that could help azeroth(imagine feeding souls to her, so she can heal herself, that would be fucked up)

[mickybrighteyes]

She has told her Dark Rangers at least. When one in the Ally war campaign kicks the bucket, she remarks with shock that she now sees what Sylvanas was trying to save them from. I disagree on the last point though. If hell is the default, then it actually gives Sylvanas' views at least some animu villain tier logic to it, since undeath is preferable to burning in hell forever.

I want to say that the 'hell' or 'nothingness' end isn't the default except for those who are raised somehow. But the whole 'after death' angle is area that isn't really discussed properly or with any solid leads. There are multiple death planes or other planes where one can go when they die and then there seem to be methods for altering one's specific outcome. Like titan forged vrykul serving odin or the warrior champion dieing to get into their class hall originally (did they die? I forget). That one paladin in icecrown circumventing death to be taken in by the Naaru... maybe it's the method through which one dies that dictates what end they get and the forsaken's undeath is one that sends them to an empty pit of nothingness.

Maybe we'll see more development into this through beings like Bwonsamdi, but I doubt it.

[Jastall]

I agree with the majority that Kerrigan's SC1 VA is better than the SC2 one, but I actually prefer the new Sylvanas VA to the old one. The only time she was bad imo was in Wrath, when she was still getting used to the role. I do think her direction has changed a bit, they're telling her to ham it up more, but I don't mind that too much. The only remotely entertaining thing about current Sylvanas is when she goes full wicked witch. Valerian having to deal with public unrest, compromise and not always getting his way while still being out for everyone's wellbeing is what I like with him. Also that, while the races all agreeing in the end is a really galling aspect of the story all around, the fact that he's more enlightened despot who's legitimately benevolent than a flower child works to his favor.

I'm not sure where the idea that the races get along forever after SC2 comes from. It's just Raynor, Kerrigan and Artanis being best buds, and 2/3ds of them are gone by the epilogue (which is an unspeakably awful piece of writing itself, mind you, but still). The Dominion immediately faces internal turmoil, the Tal'darim are still assholes that can drive stories, feral Zerg and scattered broodmothers still exist in sufficient numbers to be a serious threat, and the UED/Umoja/Kel-Morian Combine can still provide a Terran villain if needed as well, to say nothing of new potential villains.

As for Sylvanas, I can't agree. Her old voice had so much personality and oozed of the dark lade archetype. Her new voice sounds like some grating, annoyed woman 90% of the time. She can ham it up, but these scenes end up being pure cringe instead as far as I'm concerned. Definitely a lot worse than John De Lancie's performance that made me eagerly await every single new conversation with Alarak.

Then again, the only VA that I'd consider to do a great job in WoW is Jaina's and Bwonsamdi, with maybe Nathanos also to a degree much as the actual character annoys the living daylights out of me. Everyone else is either decent or mediocre with a few bad apples. Rastakhan did deliver a few nice speeches.

[Kallisto]

I want to say that the 'hell' or 'nothingness' end isn't the default except for those who are raised somehow. But the whole 'after death' angle is area that isn't really discussed properly or with any solid leads. There are multiple death planes or other planes where one can go when they die and then there seem to be methods for altering one's specific outcome. Like titan forged vrykul serving odin or the warrior champion dieing to get into their class hall originally (did they die? I forget). That one paladin in icecrown circumventing death to be taken in by the Naaru... maybe it's the method through which one dies that dictates what end they get and the forsaken's undeath is one that sends them to an empty pit of nothingness.

Maybe we'll see more development into this through beings like Bwonsamdi, but I doubt it.

Odyn's afterlife (Halls of Valor) for the Vrykul simply because he saw what the afterlife was like and is scared the ever living hell out of him. That's why the Val'kir exist, halls of valour and everything he does. It's pretty much implied without intervention of for druids the emerald dream, for those Odyn screamed valour at the halls of valour or sometimes Naaru with the light everyone is going there.

[Zandalariprelate]

Then again, the only VA that I'd consider to do a great job in WoW is Jaina's and Bwonsamdi, with maybe Nathanos also to a degree much as the actual character annoys the living daylights out of me. Everyone else is either decent or mediocre with a few bad apples. Rastakhan did deliver a few nice speeches.

Eh I would say Illidan, Arthas, Kel and Theron has good voice actors as well but most of their lines are cringe and even with the voice of Morgan Freeman you can't repair those dialogues.

Also bonus mention Erin Fitzgeral does a good job as the voice actress of

[Super Dickmann]

I'm not sure where the idea that the races get along forever after SC2 comes from. It's just Raynor, Kerrigan and Artanis being best buds, and 2/3ds of them are gone by the epilogue (which is an unspeakably awful piece of writing itself, mind you, but still). The Dominion immediately faces internal turmoil, the Tal'darim are still assholes that can drive stories, feral Zerg and scattered broodmothers still exist in sufficient numbers to be a serious threat, and the UED/Umoja/Kel-Morian Combine can still provide a Terran villain if needed as well, to say nothing of new potential villains.

As for Sylvanas, I can't agree. Her old voice had so much personality and oozed of the dark lade archetype. Her new voice sounds like some grating, annoyed woman 90% of the time. She can ham it up, but these scenes end up being pure cringe instead as far as I'm concerned. Definitely a lot worse than John De Lancie's performance that made me eagerly await every single new conversation with Alarak.

Then again, the only VA that I'd consider to do a great job in WoW is Jaina's and Bwonsamdi, with maybe Nathanos also to a degree much as the actual character annoys the living daylights out of me. Everyone else is either decent or mediocre with a few bad apples. Rastakhan did deliver a few nice speeches.

The "All races are now friends" thing is largely the product of that awful book (that I've only read recaps of mind) and the Epilogue as well as the zerg retcon. But what it stems from is that the original Starcraft is in my mind one of the best cases of the story being perfectly complementary to the gameplay - it's about a bunch of races being dicks in space, they can team up temporarily, but they dislike each other and are set up to fuck each other. The sequel is again, something that's growing on me, since it's a top tier B-movie in its own right, but it's only late LotV and with the Nova DLC that these elements really come back in, with the lower tier human conflict, Alarak and the feral broods. You also have that one-off broodmother Kerrigan made in HoTS lying around.

I think the voice acting in WoW is middling to decent all around, but it is getting better with each expansion. Talanji's VA I was especially impressed by. It'd be very easy to fuck it up into a "I'm a woman hear me roar" thing, but both when Rastakhan is dying and when she realizes what the deal is with the trap is you can really feel the despair and worry in her voice over her dad being in danger. I agree with you on Rastakhan. If they were going to kill the character, that speech he delivers to Genn was a good one to go out on.

On Sylvanas I think we're on agree to disagree territory since I really enjoy when she hams it up. I like the old VA as well, but she only really had to do one thing, whereas the new VA is forced in all sorts of situations. Sometimes it works, like when she's burning trees or being in unrepresentative cinematics, sometimes it doesn't, like when she's reminding you of the current occupants of a certain type of structure and the amount of mercy you should be approaching them with.

@mickybrighteyes

This is part of the cosmic stuff though. The default place you go to hell, unless one of the other powers kicks in, be it the Light, one of the death entities, the Emerald Dream or what have you. It's why I agree with @Nymrohd that my fanservice-y preference for what happens to Sylvanas is that she becomes a Helya-style figure for the Forsaken. That way you don't have to rejig the entire functioning of the race and you still get her out of the plot.