Help me understand the conflicting attitudes towards Bwonsamdi

[Cucultlan]

from my understanding , on paper Bwonsamdi is a cool character and looks equally cool

the way he is portrayed , however , is almost Disney cartoon villain like .... from his gestures, body language , the way he speaks ( alternating between different pitches when emphasizing something he wants) ... biggest example is when Rastakhan made his pact with Bwonsammdi initially ... it just screams metrosexual Jafar

now there are some serious moments you can see , and essentially his portrayal during Nazmir leveling is more serious than he is portrayed elsewhere , albeit he still has his quirkyness ... if he is indeed being set up as a raid boss or some sort of " big bad guy " then i hope they tone down the antics

we don 't want a rehash of how the Lich King kept popping up during leveling in Northrend , it was almost Dr. Claw from inspector gadget cartoon lol

you need to take in account in Nazmir the principal dealer with him was us our chara at least) not Talanji, in which he have some respect for the possible gain he can have and maybe the connection with the darkspear. While in the other hand you have the Zandalari royal family that hates him and maked him as a loa and they are always trying to make him less and dont even ask for his advice.

he had no love for rasthakan and surely it have a little for talanji so the way he acts depending on the person who is asking something from him fits him pretty well.

[Destinas]

Bwonsamdi has gotten his biggest chunk of lore now in BfA. He briefly showed up in the Echo Isles pre-Cata, and he showed up for a bit in Vol'jin's novel. He was also briefly mentioned in Draenor by some Shadow Hunters in Nagrand, but he was called Samedi instead. Now we truly get to see him, what he's capable of, and what his deals entail.

Thing is, he isn't always a good guy anyway, and his deals can change very quickly. In the quests A Lonely Spirit and The Forlorn Soul, we're told a story of a Zandalari woman who made a deal with Bwonsamdi to have her daughter killed and sent to the Loa of Death, so that the mother could live forever. In the end, the girl wanted to be with her mother, so at the behest of Bwonsamdi, we break that woman's deal, and kill her as well. In both scenarios, Bwonsamdi is the bad guy - he had an undeserving child killed, who wound up lonely as a spirit, and then went back on the deal he made with the girl's mother. At the very least in the latter scenario, the mother deserved it - but Bwonsamdi didn't really have us kill the mother for justice's sake. He was chuckling in the quest, like it was a little game for him to see this all happen.

We also see some other motivations of his in other quests. In order to bring Torga's spirit back, he asks that Talanji and the player kill another Loa in exchange - Talanji tells him that Hir'eek was recently killed, but he doesn't accept that deal, so she refuses him anyway. She then just gets Torga's flesh to summon him, which Bwonsamdi accepts. He also holds Rastakhan in his realm after Zul betrayed him, despite the fact that he was treading on Rezan's territory by doing that.

Bwonsamdi's deal with Rastakhan has not been honored much at all since it was made. During Zul and Mythrax's attack on Zuldazar, Rastakhan needed to basically scream at Bwonsamdi to help, which the Loa seemed to be angered by. The same happens in the Dazar'alor raid in Rastakhan's fight, where he tells him to watch his tone. He also kind of gives up on Rastakhan in Battle of Dazar'alor - when Bwonsamdi himself is brought down to a lower HP, he tells Rastakhan that he's been "livin' a long time, maybe too long" and sits on the throne, watching the Alliance kill the God-King. Going back to the Zul/Mythrax battle again, Bwonsamdi seems excited that the seal was broken as well. In all those scenarios, he actually broke the deal with Rastakhan, since he knew that he was elevated above all other Loa in order to prevent those situations from happening.

In previous lore, Bwonsamdi didn't have this personality - he didn't really have any personality. On the Echo Isles, he simply aided the Darkspear/Horde because...they asked. He threw zombies at Zalazane's shield, and that was it. In the Vol'jin novel, Bwonsamdi appeared in Vol'jin's dreams, wanting him to make the Horde a bigger and bloodier empire than the Troll Empire, which the then-chieftain refused. And, Bwonsamdi was like "okay" and showed up later to collect souls. He nearly took Tyrathan Khort's soul, Vol'jin asked him not to, and the Loa was like "okay" again. He also refuses to help the Sandfury, which is why many of them wind up as zombies - though, they have their own death god, Mueh'zala.

All of this is vastly different from the BfA Bwonsamdi, who makes deals that he doesn't keep, and does nothing out of the goodness of his heart. Much of this also conflicts with current lore. Sandfury Bandits in Vol'dun call to Bwonsamdi when they die. Despite the fact that he gave Vol'jin visions of the Horde killing everything, he stated that Sylvanas is "tipping the scales too far" with the current war. He has stated that he thinks undead are abominations, yet he summoned them on the Echo Isles (and did the same to Grong in BoD).

So, people are treating him differently in BfA because he actually has more lore and personality to go with it. Previously, he was just "troll death god" that was barely mentioned, added as a reference to the Haitian Loa Baron Samedi. Out of everyone, Talanji is pretty much the only one that's consistently lippy with Bwonsamdi as well - even then, in the Vol'jin questline she tells everyone to be respectful because he has a temper. Vol'jin also mentions that Bwonsamdi has a soft spot for the princess. It makes sense, really, that people would either fear or hate him, considering that he takes (almost) every troll's soul in the end.

Lore and character interactions always change when more lore and interactions are added. Bwonsamdi's just a prominent example of this.

[vondevon]

In previous lore, Bwonsamdi didn't have this personality - he didn't really have any personality. On the Echo Isles, he simply aided the Darkspear/Horde because...they asked. He threw zombies at Zalazane's shield, and that was it. In the Vol'jin novel, Bwonsamdi appeared in Vol'jin's dreams, wanting him to make the Horde a bigger and bloodier empire than the Troll Empire, which the then-chieftain refused. And, Bwonsamdi was like "okay" and showed up later to collect souls. He nearly took Tyrathan Khort's soul, Vol'jin asked him not to, and the Loa was like "okay" again. He also refuses to help the Sandfury, which is why many of them wind up as zombies - though, they have their own death god, Mueh'zala.

Everything you wrote was really great but I do remember this part a little differently. Bwonsamdi initially refuses to help Vol'jin reclaim the Echo Isles, asking basically why he should and what's in it for him. Vol'jin gives two reasons:

1) He promises that if the Darkspear have the Echo Isles to themselves, they'll be able to resume their rituals and offerings to him (being a Loa of Death, I can only imagine him wanting one thing as an offering, and such distasteful rituals were likely harder to get away with over at Senjin Village; whereas off on their own island, the Darkspear could do whatever they wanted w/o prying eyes)

2) He tells Bwonsamdi that Zalazane is raising the dead, which is stealing because Bwonsamdi has claim to all Darkspear souls.

During the fight, Zalazane uses some kind of barrier that only the dead can cross, which is why Bwonsamdi sends the ghouls, and at the very end Bwonsamdi grabs Zalazane himself when he tries to retreat.

So basically he helped because Profit & Zalazane pissed him off, both are very in line with his personality in BfA

All of this is vastly different from the BfA Bwonsamdi, who makes deals that he doesn't keep, and does nothing out of the goodness of his heart. Much of this also conflicts with current lore. Sandfury Bandits in Vol'dun call to Bwonsamdi when they die. Despite the fact that he gave Vol'jin visions of the Horde killing everything, he stated that Sylvanas is "tipping the scales too far" with the current war. He has stated that he thinks undead are abominations, yet he summoned them on the Echo Isles (and did the same to Grong in BoD).

Last counterpoint is that I don't think Bwonsamdi specifically sees undead as abominations by nature, but rather as an affront to his realm and power. I think he's more pissed when people try to prevent him from claiming what he feels belongs to him (i.e. using magic to bind a soul in our world from someone who's supposed to have passed on). He hates that Rezan prolonged Rastakhan's life as much and for the same reasons as he hates to see someone raising souls into undeath. Summoning undead during the Echo Isles encounter, and raising Grong in BoD doesn't bother him or conflict with his values because he's just playing with souls that already belong to him, and when he's done, they go back to wherever he keeps them.

And he doesn't like Sylvana's plan for mass death and war because she "keeps what she kills" in addition to "tipping the scales too far" which seems like an allusion to something he knows about her true plans that he isn't in the mood to share with us.

[Zandalariprelate]

Everything you wrote was really great but I do remember this part a little differently. Bwonsamdi initially refuses to help Vol'jin reclaim the Echo Isles, asking basically why he should and what's in it for him. Vol'jin gives two reasons:

1) He promises that if the Darkspear have the Echo Isles to themselves, they'll be able to resume their rituals and offerings to him (being a Loa of Death, I can only imagine him wanting one thing as an offering, and such distasteful rituals were likely harder to get away with over at Senjin Village; whereas off on their own island, the Darkspear could do whatever they wanted w/o prying eyes)

2) He tells Bwonsamdi that Zalazane is raising the dead, which is stealing because Bwonsamdi has claim to all Darkspear souls.

During the fight, Zalazane uses some kind of barrier that only the dead can cross, which is why Bwonsamdi sends the ghouls, and at the very end Bwonsamdi grabs Zalazane himself when he tries to retreat.

So basically he helped because Profit & Zalazane pissed him off, both are very in line with his personality in BfA



Last counterpoint is that I don't think Bwonsamdi specifically sees undead as abominations by nature, but rather as an affront to his realm and power. I think he's more pissed when people try to prevent him from claiming what he feels belongs to him (i.e. using magic to bind a soul in our world from someone who's supposed to have passed on). He hates that Rezan prolonged Rastakhan's life as much and for the same reasons as he hates to see someone raising souls into undeath. Summoning undead during the Echo Isles encounter, and raising Grong in BoD doesn't bother him or conflict with his values because he's just playing with souls that already belong to him, and when he's done, they go back to wherever he keeps them.

And he doesn't like Sylvana's plan for mass death and war because she "keeps what she kills" in addition to "tipping the scales too far" which seems like an allusion to something he knows about her true plans that he isn't in the mood to share with us.

This is a good summary about Bwonsamdi personality and why some people might dislike him currently because many players has become to soft to deal with anything that is not a lawful good/stupid character. Also I doubt he knows something we don't know already, Sylvanas wants Stormwind for boost her undead and probably maybe has some plan to enslave eyir again or another death god. Sure there is that vision of her being a goddess of life and death with Azerite but the bts book has a lot of continuity problems like Genn with a tail, Sylvanas being very reserved and the war council of the alliance that barely appears.

However I wonder if his boss knows something else and he is being pressed to deliver or he is in the crossroad and if he does some bad move, he is done for which is why he has been involved more directly than before.

[Destinas]

Last counterpoint is that I don't think Bwonsamdi specifically sees undead as abominations by nature, but rather as an affront to his realm and power. I think he's more pissed when people try to prevent him from claiming what he feels belongs to him (i.e. using magic to bind a soul in our world from someone who's supposed to have passed on). He hates that Rezan prolonged Rastakhan's life as much and for the same reasons as he hates to see someone raising souls into undeath. Summoning undead during the Echo Isles encounter, and raising Grong in BoD doesn't bother him or conflict with his values because he's just playing with souls that already belong to him, and when he's done, they go back to wherever he keeps them.

I could have been more clear, but Bwonsamdi's views of the undead weren't conjecture on my part at all. He states himself that the undead are abominations in his eyes.

In the quest Remnants of the Damned he states specifically how much he dislikes the undead simply for being undead. Bwonsamdi does literally call them abominations.

Ever since da spirits have begun calling upon dis "G'huun," me temple has been covered with da unbearable taint of da undead.

Da undead be an abomination, but da bloodstones dat create dem be powerful. Dey could be of use ta Bwonsamdi.

If ya wish ta show me ya fervor, den cleanse me temple of their filth and bring me their bloodstones.

In the quest Bwonsamdi's Deliverance some of his followers were sent to kill undead because they were being controlled by a lich, and they were destroying Bwonsamdi's temple. He also wants their souls, which can be apparently released when their bodies are burned.

Little of column A, little of column B. He doesn't like undead at all, and he especially hates it when people keep souls for themselves, as he stated with Sylvanas.

[Feanoro]

Also, he's a dick in M+, but he reveals the morons.

[MatthiasVonTzeskagrad]

I could have been more clear, but Bwonsamdi's views of the undead weren't conjecture on my part at all. He states himself that the undead are abominations in his eyes.

In the quest Remnants of the Damned he states specifically how much he dislikes the undead simply for being undead. Bwonsamdi does literally call them abominations.



In the quest Bwonsamdi's Deliverance some of his followers were sent to kill undead because they were being controlled by a lich, and they were destroying Bwonsamdi's temple. He also wants their souls, which can be apparently released when their bodies are burned.

Little of column A, little of column B. He doesn't like undead at all, and he especially hates it when people keep souls for themselves, as he stated with Sylvanas.

Once again, he states "undead that do NOT belong to him are abominations". Or he simply does'nt care about creating abominations as long as the souls belong to him and he can dispose of them whenever he wants.

Otherwise, the fact that he protects Dazar'Alor with skeletons like those he command you to kill in those quests would prove him a real hypocrite.

[Destinas]

Once again, he states "undead that do NOT belong to him are abominations". Or he simply does'nt care about creating abominations as long as the souls belong to him and he can dispose of them whenever he wants.

Otherwise, the fact that he protects Dazar'Alor with skeletons like those he command you to kill in those quests would prove him a real hypocrite.

He says it broadly ("da undead be an abomination") and voices his general disgust ("me temple has been covered with da unbearable taint of da undead"). He's just a hypocrite. He doesn't say that they're abominations because they don't belong to him.

It could be that he sees a difference between "undead" and raised skeletons and spirits. In BfA most of his necromancy involves raising skeletons and spirits, with only Grong being a zombie-like undead with hanging flesh. Even with Grong, compared to Bwonsamdi's quotes in his temple, he's a hypocrite.

[Combatbutler]

He says it broadly ("da undead be an abomination") and voices his general disgust ("me temple has been covered with da unbearable taint of da undead"). He's just a hypocrite. He doesn't say that they're abominations because they don't belong to him.

It could be that he sees a difference between "undead" and raised skeletons and spirits. In BfA most of his necromancy involves raising skeletons and spirits, with only Grong being a zombie-like undead with hanging flesh. Even with Grong, compared to Bwonsamdi's quotes in his temple, he's a hypocrite.

His beef is more with the undead sticking around in the realm of the living, his legions are not permanent, he uses them, yet the moment they fulfilled their purpose he drags them back into the shadowlands where they belong, the souls of the dead always belong to something, they aren't free and never will be, such is the way of the afterlife in general.

Bwonsamdi does all of this to get a bigger cut of the souls that travel to realm of the dead.