If you just remove Sylvanas from BfA...

[huth]

BOOM good boy Varian ditches it all as an act and reveals he is STILL a conniving SOB trying to get more power under him and renews his plans for vengeance against the bitch that murdered his boy. This time not as a King in Exile with no lands, but as Regent Lord of the strongest military nation in the Alliance.

*cough* You mean Genn, yes?

[Leodok]

I firmly believe 90% of the problems in BfA's lore (not counting small pet peeves) would be solved if they hadn't made the horrible decision to make Sylvannas Warchief. She ruins every scene she's in, inspires no loyalty, and the conflict she creates is undermined by just how obviously evil she is.

[Combatbutler]

I firmly believe 90% of the problems in BfA's lore (not counting small pet peeves) would be solved if they hadn't made the horrible decision to make Sylvannas Warchief. She ruins every scene she's in, inspires no loyalty, and the conflict she creates is undermined by just how obviously evil she is.

While making the screecher warchief is one of the biggest mistakes they ever did, but the other one is making the faction conflict the center stage you can have believable faction conflict on a smaller scale instead of this joke of a narrative.

[MatthiasVonTzeskagrad]

I firmly believe 90% of the problems in BfA's lore (not counting small pet peeves) would be solved if they hadn't made the horrible decision to make Sylvannas Warchief. She ruins every scene she's in, inspires no loyalty, and the conflict she creates is undermined by just how obviously evil she is.

Actually Sylvanas appointment as Warchief is one of the best scenes the Horde has ever had, specially from an artistical point. And the BfA trailer Sylvanas is great as well. The mistake was somehow derailing the whole arc they pointed at when making those scenes (aka Sylvanas being or becoming the one Warchief that can somehow speak to both Hordes and lead them) to turn her into a tasteless joke whose only goal is to make three vomitive characters look slightly better.

[Leodok]

Actually Sylvanas appointment as Warchief is one of the best scenes the Horde has ever had, specially from an artistical point. And the BfA trailer Sylvanas is great as well.

What? No. No way in hell. Both are completely throwing away any sensible logic to make fanservice for its own sake. Sylvannas should never have been warchief, it goes against the very nature of her character and everything she's done in years. Vol'jin somehow seeing some potential in her, the Loa supporting her, all of that was ridiculous lorebending - not to mention how she suddenly started caring for the Horde and Vol'jin (who she spescifically said she would never take orders from, as soon as he became warchief) just for that scene, before reverting back to her selfish self as soon as the heroic-doppelganger-Sylvannas was no longer needed. Then they bring it back, for the BfA trailer only (though this time there's at least a strong implication that she's just faking it).

While making the screecher warchief is one of the biggest mistakes they ever did, but the other one is making the faction conflict the center stage you can have believable faction conflict on a smaller scale instead of this joke of a narrative.

Faction conflict can work on a big scale and very often does. Dazar'alor is an example, and so would be the War of Thorns if it didn't end with the worst shaohao/lordsofwar/warbringers-style video they have ever made. It can create great conflict that's usually simply absent from the typical old god legion fest.

[Biotec]

Killing Vol'jin was the mistake, Sylvanas being warchief was just the extra edgy icing that made everything more awful.

It would have been better if Vol'jin started the war by trying to retrieve the Zandalari princess. The Alliance would refuse to hand her over because she was a legitimate military target, and because they still have a rocky relationship after the Broken Shore. This ends with Zul burning Stormwind, and the Alliance taking this as an attack against them and allowing Genn and Anduin to justify an attack on the Undercity. Sylvanas catches wind of this and sets up a plan to take down the Alliance leaders with the city if she fails to defend it. The Horde doesn't have the time to amass forces there due to the sudden escalation, so Sylvanas' use of the plague and necromancy comes off as a last resort instead of just her being evil. In the end Sylvanas is forced to destroy the city and vows vengeance against the Alliance.

Vol'jin is also furious, and leads an attack on Teldrassil in response. Sylvanas uses her plan to trick them into thinking that they are going to gather Azerite by the sword, and the Alliance falls for it. Vol'jin, Saurfang and Sylvanas then lead a blitzkrieg against the Night Elves and take all the way to Teldrassil proper. The Night Elves refuse to give up, so Sylvanas and the goblins opt to use a prototype Azerite war machine. The battle turns to the Horde's favor, until the Alliance take down the machine, which then malfunctions and sets the entire tree on fire. The Horde are left with an accidental genocide and the looming feeling of a disastrous war on the horizon. No one stands against their leadership this time because they right to attack the tree and the burning was an accident.

Vol'jin then leads the efforts in Zandalar and everything there makes a million times more sense. He leaves Sylvanas to lead the attacks on Kul Tiras so we still get the "morally grey", Sylvanas opts to use plague and necromancy for revenge instead of just cuz. The Night Elves conversely lead the attack on Zandalar since they do better in those environments anyway and they can also use the vengeance argument to do morally grey stuff. Now both sides have good and bad aspects that are all far more understandable than they are in current utilizing most of the same characters with the added additions of Vol'jin not being a ghost.

[Super Dickmann]

What? No. No way in hell. Both are completely throwing away any sensible logic to make fanservice for its own sake. Sylvannas should never have been warchief, it goes against the very nature of her character and everything she's done in years. Vol'jin somehow seeing some potential in her, the Loa supporting her, all of that was ridiculous lorebending - not to mention how she suddenly started caring for the Horde and Vol'jin (who she spescifically said she would never take orders from, as soon as he became warchief) just for that scene, before reverting back to her selfish self as soon as the heroic-doppelganger-Sylvannas was no longer needed. Then they bring it back, for the BfA trailer only (though this time there's at least a strong implication that she's just faking it).

Honestly, while Sylvanas should never have been Warchief due to the immense chance it'd be fucked up as they have done it currently, you can make a decent story out of it within the confines of her character. It's just pretty hard. Essentially, you have to extend her EoN view of the Forsaken as being precious and worth protecting to secure her own existence to the whole of the Horde and you have to actually acknowledge that she doesn't align ideologically with the Kalimdor races. Like in BTS, Sylvanas would be constantly jockeying and pandering with the component races and you could use as a jumping off point to examine some of the touch points between the Forsaken and the broader Horde. Say for example the val'kyr as warrior spirits who see death as the highest ideal mixed with the orcish credo of 'lok'tar ogar' and the R.A.S, forced to do P.R work now that the whole of the Horde is watching getting involved with the tauren to work on cures as well. Sylvanas lends herself to this kind of thing because she's a foreigner even to the race she leads. She understands the Forsaken, but she isn't from Lordaeron. As Warchief she would be bringing her shtick to the rest of the Horde, accentuating historic grievances and so on.

Sylvanas as she is now is a mess and the Horde is basically in the ground because it's required to be two things at the same time. It must first be the kind of uncompromising organisation that is willing to follow Sylvanas to war even after she's committed genocide and who themselves gleefully use any means at their disposal. But they must also be poor, put upon babies tricked by that evil (morally) grey woman into being bad, who are actually honorable and can't wait to go back to their mudhuts and LARP as if it's 2002. It doesn't work. The Horde that followed Sylvanas up to now, who didn't balk at genocide, would not turn at pretty much anything short of her turning on them. The Horde that we're meant to believe is there, the insufferable muh honor dross that it is, would have rebelled much earlier.

All of this is bunk anyway though, because if the Alliance would give Buddha a run for his money in moral perfection, then the Horde pretty much has to be run by Snidely Whiplash for a faction war to happen where Blizzard can still cram their pre-school tier message down our throats.

[FuxieDK]

Its weird how just removing Sylvanas from BfA not only keeps the story working, but makes it much better.

Are you trolling? In that case, you get a 8/10 for the attempt.

If you are serious: GTFO!!! Sylvanas is the glue that holds BfA together..

[Mehrunes]

Sylvanas as she is now is a mess and the Horde is basically in the ground because it's required to be two things at the same time. It must first be the kind of uncompromising organisation that is willing to follow Sylvanas to war even after she's committed genocide and who themselves gleefully use any means at their disposal. But they must also be poor, put upon babies tricked by that evil (morally) grey woman into being bad, who are actually honorable and can't wait to go back to their mudhuts and LARP as if it's 2002. It doesn't work. The Horde that followed Sylvanas up to now, who didn't balk at genocide, would not turn at pretty much anything short of her turning on them. The Horde that we're meant to believe is there, the insufferable muh honor dross that it is, would have rebelled much earlier.

Yeah, Blizzard pretty much is trying to have the cake and eat it too. And as Donald Tusk said in reply to UK trying the same thing in regards to Brexit, there will be no cakes for anybody, only salt and vinegar. In this case, Blizzard is applying them on open wounds.

[Doffen]

While making the screecher warchief is one of the biggest mistakes they ever did, but the other one is making the faction conflict the center stage you can have believable faction conflict on a smaller scale instead of this joke of a narrative.

Agree fully with this. I want Sylvanas to be the solo artist as she is, and make the faction conflict being on a smaller scale like you say. You would think the citizens of Azeroth(and the devs) would learned by now and focused on the greater bad, and story.

[MatthiasVonTzeskagrad]

Agree fully with this. I want Sylvanas to be the solo artist as she is, and make the faction conflict being on a smaller scale like you say. You would think the citizens of Azeroth(and the devs) would learned by now and focused on the greater bad, and story.

,

At least the Horde should have learnt. I could perfectly have a full scale war where Alliance just wants nothing but destroy the Horde while they try to fight more reasonably. Then ironically Anduin could have had a better development as a character, being at first dragged into the war and then struggles (successfully or not) to become a both wise and strong leader instead of an utter moron who throws people to blight clouds without gas masks, does nothing for months, gets everything done by his advisors yet rains on their parade crying about losing people that were sent to die anyways and about "Burning of Teldrassil levels" of foolish concepts.

Then again, that would have meant the Alliance would have had perfectly logical flaws instead of being an abhorrent mass of perfectly stupid lawful goodness that can do anything wrong even if it tries to summon fucking Void Lords in this world. And apparently, writing stories for adults, like those in Warcraft, SC1, latest SC2 comics, and so on, are no longer in Blizzard's schedules.

[mario710]

Yeah, Blizzard pretty much is trying to have the cake and eat it too. And as Donald Tusk said in reply to UK trying the same thing in regards to Brexit, there will be no cakes for anybody, only salt and vinegar. In this case, Blizzard is applying them on open wounds.

I disagree completely.