(TV) Star Trek: Discovery

[cyberglum]

I'm glad you continue to watch and enjoy the show. 4Chan won't swat you if you say something nice about it though. There's no need to keep up the tough incel act.

Insult someone because they don't like a TV show?

Classy.

[Ivanstone]

Insult someone because they don't like a TV show?

Classy.

If you don't like a show, don't watch it. No need to constantly make long-winded posts about how shitty it is. Not unless you have some kind of agenda to push.

You don't see me in Big Bang Theory threads shitting on the show. I don't like the show, I don't watch it and I've already said more words about it than I should.

[IIamaKing]

Except that we know the Borg's history goes back thousands of years. That canon's established in both TNG and Voyager.

YOu are saying that as if this show cares about cannon.

Honestly I really enjoy the stories DISCO is giving us, I just HATE that they decided to put it in the past. Fucks up SO much established cannon for ??? reasons.

[Endus]

YOu are saying that as if this show cares about cannon.

Honestly I really enjoy the stories DISCO is giving us, I just HATE that they decided to put it in the past. Fucks up SO much established cannon for ??? reasons.

It hasn't been that hostile to canon, really. The revelation to Pike in the most recent episode is ENTIRELY canon. Spock isn't being ruined; I actually like this iteration of the character a fair bit.

The technology, I'll put that down to just better effects, for the most part. The two real deviations they've had were holo-screens (and this season, they explained why they stopped being used; security weaknesses), and the spore drive which remains too "good" to not be used constantly, which I imagine just means they're planning to ruin that forever by the end of Discovery's run.

Otherwise, the show's been pretty respectful of canon from 50 years ago. If you think starships needed to look like cheap-ass 60s-era garbage to fit with canon, I'd argue you're using a ridiculous standard.

[Ivanstone]

YOu are saying that as if this show cares about cannon.

Honestly I really enjoy the stories DISCO is giving us, I just HATE that they decided to put it in the past. Fucks up SO much established cannon for ??? reasons.

I don't think they're fucking up canon. I think they're wallowing in nostalgia and not looking forward.

- - - Updated - - -

Otherwise, the show's been pretty respectful of canon from 50 years ago. If you think starships needed to look like cheap-ass 60s-era garbage to fit with canon, I'd argue you're using a ridiculous standard.

Example: The Enterprise in TOS and The Enterprise in TMP. Gene got some money and made stuff look fancier.

[IIamaKing]

@Endus @Ivanstone

Giving Spock a sister is unnecessary, only done to milk nostalgia. The same character(Michael) could have existed in essentially the same way without shoehorning in Spock. I dont mind her character, I mind how they choose to create her.

The sporedrive is cannon breaking, sure at some point it will be classified at the deepest levels and thats why its never mentioned in the next ~100 years. Put the show after Voyager and we don't need a Deus Ex to write it away. Also, I think its pretty obvious what Control is at this point or its just massive misdirection, but Im doubtful.

Theres lots of other examples, small enough but none of them need be if the show is just set after Voyager. I guess thats my real issue, a certain bitterness that cannon stalled out after Janeway. I LIKE the show, I also hate it. With no more effort than what they have put in, this show could be a continuation that Iv wanted for what...20 years now?

Iv no issue with what they are doing with Spock, other than it needn't be done, his character had his story and it was epic. Its kind of like Star Wars being bound to the Skywalkers. Like theres lots of other stuff, the galaxy is YUGE! Likewise I find most of the tech to be in line just visualized in a 2019 version of the future, I dont expect the ships to look as if they were designed in the 60s.

All Of Disco could of been great continuation of cannon. Instead they went on milking nostalgia needlessly murkying up whats been laid down.

[fakaroonie]

Just when everyone thought Burnham is not the Mary Sue and center of it all, Spock confirms it

What now though? The Red Angel lost all its misteriousness. Borgtroll are the big bads yea, but that's about it. This season started sooo good on the exploration side, and science stuff, and now it just... melted all into Discovery crew vs Control, with side questlines.

Still the best SF that's on at the moment, after the Expanse.

[Endus]

@Endus @Ivanstone

Giving Spock a sister is unnecessary, only done to milk nostalgia.

If you dig back a few pages to some weeks ago, you'll dig up my rant about how Burnham's concept as a character started and ended with "mutinied, imprisoned, allowed out on assignment but not given back her rank". That was an interesting concept; the redemption arc of the one mutineer Starfleet had ever had.

"Spock's sister" as a hook only works to introduce Spock. Now that he's here, let's get him to settle his shit with Burnham this season, and then Burnham no longer serves a purpose. If she and Ash want to go have weird lovebabies somewhere, fine, but the two of them are the weak part of the show IMO. Largely because the writers seem unwilling to actually make them suffer serious consequences; Ash's story would be engaging if he were still in love with L'rell, but having Michael there negates that entirely, and as of this last episode, he now doesn't have to worry about his and L'rell's son any more. There's nothing else to do with them after this season unless you make something up, and that'll feel forced. So let 'em go.

All Of Disco could of been great continuation of cannon. Instead they went on milking nostalgia needlessly murkying up whats been laid down.

If I were to try and start a new Star Trek series, I'd have given up all this. The most-respected series after TOS (which gets a pass for obvious reasons) are TNG and DS9; both TNG-era. This desire to rehash the past with Enterprise and Discovery is only "okay" and you've got issued with continuity. You've got two real options;

1> Fuck continuity in the ear, do what the new films did, create a new timeline at the Kirk era or before and ignore continuity. Gonna cause bitching.

2> Do what TNG did. Move the action another 50-100 years forward in time. Tech's moved on; redesign all the ships and uniforms and equipment. Abandon all political allegiances; we've got another 100 years of intervening history to explain that. If I really wanted to rock boats, I'd do some monkeying around with ideas like a neutralized Borg; they offer assimilation, but are not aggressively expansive. Very "other", but not in direct competition, and also completely unwilling to involve themselves except out of naked self-interest, and only on their terms. It even makes practical sense; the Borg aren't on a strict biological clock; if they can passively grow, slowly, and in safety, why risk outside threat by expanding too aggressively? Be a better alternative and let your merits shine on their own. Don't introduce a new "big bad", revitalize an old one, or twist an old ally (like the Vulcans) into an enemy. I seriously don't understand the hesitation to move the timeline along a bit.

[Frontenac]

@Endus @Ivanstone
The sporedrive is cannon breaking, sure at some point it will be classified at the deepest levels and thats why its never mentioned in the next ~100 years. Put the show after Voyager and we don't need a Deus Ex to write it away. Also, I think its pretty obvious what Control is at this point or its just massive misdirection, but Im doubtful.

I have no problem with the sporedrive. Nobody has any problem with Genesis, which is never mentionned again after Star Trek 4.

I believe they have linked Discovery to TOS era because the last movies were TOS era, albeit an alternate version, with Kirk, Spock, McCoy et al. And let's face it, even if there has been four tv series between TOS and Discovery, Kirk's crew will always be the iconic Star Trek crew for the general audience and the Klingons the iconic villains of Star Trek. My mother knows about Kirk and Spock. But Data? Odo? Seven of Nine? Nope.

I too would like them to tell a story in the 25th or 26th century. But, like you said, this is a huge galaxy and I see nothing wrong in trying to flesh out previous periods.

[Stormspark]

It hasn't been that hostile to canon, really. The revelation to Pike in the most recent episode is ENTIRELY canon. Spock isn't being ruined; I actually like this iteration of the character a fair bit.

The technology, I'll put that down to just better effects, for the most part. The two real deviations they've had were holo-screens (and this season, they explained why they stopped being used; security weaknesses), and the spore drive which remains too "good" to not be used constantly, which I imagine just means they're planning to ruin that forever by the end of Discovery's run.

Otherwise, the show's been pretty respectful of canon from 50 years ago. If you think starships needed to look like cheap-ass 60s-era garbage to fit with canon, I'd argue you're using a ridiculous standard.

The look of TOS was limited by what was available with a TV budget at the time. I'm surprised it looked as good as it did (this is the 60's, what passed for sci-fi back then was generally garbage, TOS is really the first good one). But yeah, there is no reason for a modern show to use that aesthetic regardless of when it's set because today it looks ridiculous. They've done a few subtle nods to the original look, that's good enough. I haven't yet seen anything in Discovery that breaks canon (granted, I'm only just now to the end of the first season, won't get to see the second until it comes to DVD). Yes, the Klingons had cloaking devices, which were completely and totally broken and rendered useless. The spore drive is literally impossible to use without a sentient genetically modified navigator, which the Federation would never allow, and it will probably be decomissioned at the end of the series because of dangers to the network.

[WoWGoneBad]

I am really starting to like this direction.

They are slowly taking the focus off Brunham and letting the other characters shine. It is about time they brought back the chick engineer lol. She will be a great counter to Stamets.

I am still of the path that this is the birth of the Borg. The lines used by Control are way too close to the lines used by the Borg.

The voice sounding computer-electronic, being reconstructed, there is only one outcome, ability to co-op people and ships....... This may not be the Borg of Official canon but something Borgish all the same.

[Ivanstone]

it will probably be decomissioned at the end of the series because of dangers to the network.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek:_Short_Treks

Well, it looks like something else will happen instead. Precisely what I'm not sure.

[Skroe]

Am I wrong in thinking that the Klingon makeup took like, a massive step backwards this past week? Lor'ell looked terrible. God, the look just does not work and they need to stop trying.

Also another great outing by Pike, aka the best thing about the show. The hole he is going to leave when this season wraps is going to be hard to fill. He is doing what Michael cannot (thanks to the writers, not the Actress), which is make you care about what is going on.

I'm going to throw in a spoiler here for people who haven't read TNG books, because it relates to Discovery and includes speculation about where this is going.

Discovery pulled the concept of "Control" directly from a post-DS9 book that takes place in the 2380s. Basically "Control' is a name of the Section 31 AI that goes back to United Earth in the 2150s and has run Earth, Section 31 and the Federation, for over 250 years. It's the secret power behind the throne the entire time and Julian Bashir exposes Section 31 and destroyed Control.

Another part of the post-DS9 book Series, Star Trek Destiny, has "the Borg" being created (to make a long story short), when the crew of the NX-02 Columbia encountered essentially a peaceful "Nanite-based" race in the late 2150s and through a convoluted series of events, some of the NX-02 crew got thrown back in time 5000 years to a harsh planet in the Deta Quadrant and merged with a corrupted and malicious member of that race, and became the first Borg Drones (Borg litterally taken from Cyborg).

I wonder if since they lifted Control from the books and modified it, they're doing the same with Destiny and the Borg. That this will end with some members of Section 31 being flung back in time 900 years (in this case) to the Delta Quadrant and the strange mixture of Control, the Sphere data/AI and humans creates the first Borg, with "assimilation" being a kind of imperative to complete the partially complete sphere data set (which gives the early Borg an enormous technological advantage 900 years ago).

I think it is a good origin to the Borg. I normally don't like "everything is connected", but it works here.

[hynx]

I am really starting to like this direction.

They are slowly taking the focus off Brunham and letting the other characters shine. It is about time they brought back the chick engineer lol. She will be a great counter to Stamets.

I am still of the path that this is the birth of the Borg. The lines used by Control are way too close to the lines used by the Borg.

The voice sounding computer-electronic, being reconstructed, there is only one outcome, ability to co-op people and ships....... This may not be the Borg of Official canon but something Borgish all the same.

this is not the birth of the borg. the borg were at the very least a minor power in the delta quadrant by the time earth was in its 1600-1700's. I also wouldnt dismiss control being based off of borg technology from when the NX Enterprise encountered them, but wouldnt say its the birth of them. that would piss the fandom off even more, and ruin more established lore.

[Biomega]

I seriously don't understand the hesitation to move the timeline along a bit.

My suspicion is that this has to to do with the people in charge favoring the style of TOS for marketing reasons. Kirk's cowboy diplomacy fits a lot better into the narrative of action-driven TV than Picard's rational humanism. That's always been a big problem with TNG - it's too smart for TV, too sophisticated for mainstream audiences. There's episodes that effectively take place in one room where people debate the finer points of morality - and it's great for a lot of people, but not the mainstream. There's a reason they injected more contemporary zeitgeist into the spirit of DS9, and switched things over from the Starfleet perfection of a Utopian TNG to a more grounded - more mainstream - type of narrative. That's why religion comes back into the mix all of a sudden, and we suddenly have the Federation build warships. Because that's more appealing to mainstream audiences than Darmok-style high SF.

Just look at what Discovery is about. Certainly not about building a Utopian Federation and navigating its principles amidst a galaxy in diplomatic standoff. It's why the Klingons were turned from an alternative warrior culture back into a brutish, exoticized other. Why it's all about explosions and phaser fights and bombastic events rather than about justifying an insistence on peaceful resolutions in times of violence (which, admittedly, was a paradox that TNG fundamentally suffered from as a show).

If you set things in a time where we have a more immature Federation, you can more easily justify adherence to the principles of mainstream action TV. But it's also why so many people look at this show and say "okay, fair enough, but it doesn't really feel like Star Trek to me".

Personally, I am in complete agreement with you - I want to see a show set decades after the end of VOY. Maybe even a century, why not. See things shaken up, brought to an evolution of everything that was set up in TNG/DS9/VOY. Paradigm shifts like your Borg idea would be welcome (although in this particular example I think that might be a little contrived, though creative). One thing I've heard someone bring forward (I can't recall who, sorry) was the idea of the Federation essentially encountering another Federation - not an evil version of it like the Dominion, but simply an alternative Utopia. Negotiating confrontations with the other when it's not in direct opposition have always fascinated me, but I can absolutely see why a big-budget TV show is just not going to be the right scene for that. Audiences would be confused for the most part, and find things too ambitious, too sophisticated for modern tastes.

I'm not sure I can ever be happy with DIS as a ST series. It's okay-ish as a standalone SF show, but not brilliant. The Orville does do the ST formula better, for the most part, but the humor - while totally in character for the show as it was conceived - is starting to get to me. It's not so much that I'm offended by it (I'm not) but rather that it feels superfluous. It's tacked onto the kinds of storylines that I know from my "classic" ST, and so it feels a little intrusive to me. In many ways that parallels what is going on in DIS - the parts I dislike are the extra trimmings they feel they need to add to cater to their respective audiences. ST has never been about the pew pew to me. But the pew pew is what people want to see these days.

[WoWGoneBad]

Discovery pulled the concept of "Control" directly from a post-DS9 book that takes place in the 2380s. Basically "Control' is a name of the Section 31 AI that goes back to United Earth in the 2150s and has run Earth, Section 31 and the Federation, for over 250 years. It's the secret power behind the throne the entire time and Julian Bashir exposes Section 31 and destroyed Control.

Another part of the post-DS9 book Series, Star Trek Destiny, has "the Borg" being created (to make a long story short), when the crew of the NX-02 Columbia encountered essentially a peaceful "Nanite-based" race in the late 2150s and through a convoluted series of events, some of the NX-02 crew got thrown back in time 5000 years to a harsh planet in the Deta Quadrant and merged with a corrupted and malicious member of that race, and became the first Borg Drones (Borg litterally taken from Cyborg).

I wonder if since they lifted Control from the books and modified it, they're doing the same with Destiny and the Borg. That this will end with some members of Section 31 being flung back in time 900 years (in this case) to the Delta Quadrant and the strange mixture of Control, the Sphere data/AI and humans creates the first Borg, with "assimilation" being a kind of imperative to complete the partially complete sphere data set (which gives the early Borg an enormous technological advantage 900 years ago).

I think it is a good origin to the Borg. I normally don't like "everything is connected", but it works here.

I have been doing some research on the ST books and Enterprise and I have now come to the conclusion that Sec 31 is actually using Borg tech. With ST First Contact and Enterprise, and ST Control, I can see how they are trying to play out this story now. I will admit that this is no longer about the birth of the Borg, but an extension of them through a different means. With these nanites, they dont need cybernetic parts to make the drones function, the host has all their memories and faculties to operate, when they are shot, their bodies regenerate directly rather than shielding, though I am sure shielding will be introduced at some point with what happened to the drone in the last episode. The nanites are self sustaining for a small period outside a host as seen again in this last episode.

So yes, I will no longer go with the birth of the Borg, and I am very happy about that as it would seriously destroy continuity. But we are seeing the rise of a new style of something "Borg" like. I also still feel like we are going to get some sort of time travel into the past, and these new Borg are going to be sent back. We have 4 more episodes to see how this plays out.

And I am really liking the throwbacks to ToS with Pike. This last episode showing how he will be bound to his chair just as in the Original Series. I fear that we will be seeing Kirk in Season 4 if it makes it that far.

[Skulltaker]

(...)

Would you mind sharing what the titles of these books were? Never read any ST books, these sound intersting.

[Endus]

My suspicion is that this has to to do with the people in charge favoring the style of TOS for marketing reasons. Kirk's cowboy diplomacy fits a lot better into the narrative of action-driven TV than Picard's rational humanism. That's always been a big problem with TNG - it's too smart for TV, too sophisticated for mainstream audiences.

Moving the timeline forward can solve this, though.

It's the 26th Century. The Federation has fallen; with no extant threats, internal strife grew, eventually exploding into outright conflict. The Andorians were the first to go, pulling back into their own territory. The Vulcans saw this as a threat, and demanded Federation support in forcing the Andorians back to the table. When the Federation refused, the Vulcans severed ties as well. The Klingons were next, and then the Federation simply fell apart. Diplomatic relations are not automatically hostile, but the major factions are at best strained. Tensions run deep, and all sides seem quick to action. The remaining Earth-led Starfleet has had to retool to a more-military approach, though scientific exploration and discovery is still a strong secondary mission.

There, just threw that off the top of my head without any planning whatsoever or thinking about it for more than 30 seconds. I don't claim it to be great, but time doesn't march towards peace and friendship; the TNG era could be the ideal that's collapsed, leaving a galaxy where some are trying to grab what they can, and others are trying to stop the decay and rebuild. It would have a much more DS9 type feel, but DS9 is the second-most popular series for a reason.

[Biomega]

Moving the timeline forward can solve this, though.

It's the 26th Century. The Federation has fallen; with no extant threats, internal strife grew, eventually exploding into outright conflict. The Andorians were the first to go, pulling back into their own territory. The Vulcans saw this as a threat, and demanded Federation support in forcing the Andorians back to the table. When the Federation refused, the Vulcans severed ties as well. The Klingons were next, and then the Federation simply fell apart. Diplomatic relations are not automatically hostile, but the major factions are at best strained. Tensions run deep, and all sides seem quick to action. The remaining Earth-led Starfleet has had to retool to a more-military approach, though scientific exploration and discovery is still a strong secondary mission.

The problem with that is that you're changing an existing paradigm - while if you're moving in TOS (or TOS-ish) eras you already have the mindset ready and established. Changing a 24th+ century Federation's track radically likely seems more problematic to the people in charge than simply going into earlier times where things were less Utopian to begin with.

Now, I'm not saying it couldn't be done, or that it couldn't be done well - but my guess is that they don't want to risk pissing people off by making such fundamental changes, when they already have a time frame available to them where they don't have to. That they're STILL pissing people off with what they're doing there is mildly ironic, of course.

[WoWGoneBad]

It's the 26th Century. The Federation has fallen; with no extant threats, internal strife grew, eventually exploding into outright conflict. The Andorians were the first to go, pulling back into their own territory. The Vulcans saw this as a threat, and demanded Federation support in forcing the Andorians back to the table. When the Federation refused, the Vulcans severed ties as well. The Klingons were next, and then the Federation simply fell apart. Diplomatic relations are not automatically hostile, but the major factions are at best strained. Tensions run deep, and all sides seem quick to action. The remaining Earth-led Starfleet has had to retool to a more-military approach, though scientific exploration and discovery is still a strong secondary mission.

You just essentially described the plotline of the MMO Star Trek Online. Just replace the Andorians with the Romulans and the Klingons already fractured and tensions are tight with Fed and Vulcan relations. That is the starting point of STO....