Glass cannon is dead for raids, we are essentially an intellect buff now

[Video Games]

yes, and do you know mages are one of the required classes for many, many, many raids now, because of how strong hero+int buff+Blink+iceblock is
then dont even get me started with M+ poly+food/water

also couldnt i just say
"Warlock is dead for raids, we are essentially a healthstone/gateway now..."

Shamans are mandatory because of how slt is and they have lust, only good thing but there is a scroll, im 8/9m right now and I have no idea what you think we do with ice block that's so important.
Drinks are cheap and there's no reason to poly anymore in s2.

No because you actually do dps lol.

[mrgreenthump]

a warlocks damage resistance does not allow them to solo coin shower, meteor smash, magma traps, and others
thats a talent, and no where near as good as blink
one stun, on a long cooldown
everyone can use healthstones and gates, why i only included time warp and int buff together.

but how do we have BETTER raid utility?
iceblock is huge, so is blink for orb carrying on jadefire for example

You still need the warlock in the raid to give out the healthstone as much as you need a Mage giving the int buff(unless you sit him outside giving them together with the mage buffing int). Also if you got only that single mage in the raid who can lust, you got some serious problems in your roster.

Ice Block used to be a god tier ability when it came to raiding, though they moved away from designing one-shot fights after admiting they overdid ToS. Nowdays after 2 raids, you got like 3 or 4 fights that it is even useful and even then it's not needed in the slightest.

Shimmer is also a talent, Blink gives you a GCD. You would never use Blink in raids unless you really had to because moving during instants is way better option. I'd put Demonic Circle a bit lower level than Shimmer, it just needs you to know the fight before you do it to put your Circle in the right position. The only fight where I felt Shimmer was OP during this expansion was on Mother as with proper usage you would never have to run against the winds as Arcane. But Gateway on the other hand is amazing utility. Blizzard devs more often than not seem to forget the ability exists and the whole raid team ends up cheesing mechanics with it. Or then you have a fight like KJ where you needed the gateway as stardard because else you would fly off.

- - - Updated - - -

"Warlock is dead for raids, we are essentially a healthstone/gateway now..."

I would expect Warlocks to if they were as bad as compared to Mages as Mages are compared to Warlocks currently. Not that I agree with this thread, Glass Cannon died in TBC when it was removed from the guide book that came with the game.

[Makabreska]

but how do we have BETTER raid utility?
iceblock is huge, so is blink for orb carrying on jadefire for example

It WAS huge in ToS, but thankfully they moved away from Tomb of Soakgeras boss model. But honestly, mages have better utility than locks? lolno. Demonic Gateway alone beats most of raid utilities classes bring, it can allow you to skip entire Jadefire maze for crying out loud. Blizz has to design raids around this ability, and they still keep coming up short!

[Notdev]

yes, and do you know mages are one of the required classes for many, many, many raids now, because of how strong hero+int buff+Blink+iceblock is
then dont even get me started with M+ poly+food/water

also couldnt i just say
"Warlock is dead for raids, we are essentially a healthstone/gateway now..."

No you couldn't, because Warlocks do great DPS.
Affliction is the #2 spec overall.
Destro is #5.
Demo is #11.

All 3 mage specs are in the bottom 9. Arcane #16, Frost #20, Fire #21.

On Jaina, mage specs are ALL in the bottom 5. Fire and Frost are dead last. Arcane is 5th from the bottom. Meanwhile Warlock has 3 specs in the top half.

All numbers are based on 75th percentile mythic parses.

This entire thread is based on the fact our damage sucks. Mage is a decent progression class because of blink/iceblock utility as well as int buff. But warlocks have at LEAST a comparable amount of utility (healthstone, portal) while being a far better damage class.

Mage has ok to good utility. But our damage is terrible. This cannot be argued.

[Gaidax]

I think it's pretty clear that for raiding Warlocks are head and shoulders above mages at the moment by all parameters and I say this as a warlock. As per custom lately, specs that can multidot or spread cleave out the wazoo get the cake.

I imagine mage time will come again, but it's not this tier for sure, although they aren't half bad in M+. I, as Destruction, probably can't keep up with Frost, but Destruction is a subpar M+ spec (and Affliction even moreso). Demo is pretty great in M+, but middling in raids, so I guess it's not completely one-sided there.

IMO a lot depends on encounters design in 8.2 raid, if there will be a metric ton of AoE-fests or pure ST - I can totally see mages wrecking there.

[kheath812]

yes, and do you know mages are one of the required classes for many, many, many raids now, because of how strong hero+int buff+Blink+iceblock is
then dont even get me started with M+ poly+food/water

also couldnt i just say
"Warlock is dead for raids, we are essentially a healthstone/gateway now..."

the fact that youve said any of this means you clearly dont raid or do high m+ at all.

hero isnt mage exclusive

scroll+another warlock is better than bringing any mage spec. or just bring only 1 mage, and even then, you saying were good because of int buff is terrible. a class shouldnt be relegated to a buff bot. thats bad.

blink doesnt even have a special role in this raid tier. there arent many mechanics we need to get to "NOW", no major soaks or anything.

neither does ice block. theres not much you can block anyway, almost all the mechanics that will kill you will do damage through ice block now.

and in m+ you dont use poly like ever, and even if you did, theres about 10 other classes that can cc mobs out of combat too so ??

vendor water.

[Sariengrey]

mages need a buff at the very least if current raid/encounter design stays the same going forward. Any argument against that is dumb and been disproven, weather you play a mage , loc or whatever class. All the info is out there. The arguments are over really

[Charge me Doctor]

He is still better than the top 140 ( 7.9k dps), top 150 is on 4k dps lol. So he is at worst average, but not a bad player like you want to infer..

It's an issue of fire mage representation. A mage that does 8k and below probably sits on 20-40 pyroblast casts in a 4+ minute fight. Probably does some shady shit like dumping both fireblasts to get one pyroblast (yes, i've seen people do that, it's crazy, i know) or hardcast pyro without proc or a talent by mistake. It's funny to me how you infer that someone who happens to be in top 140 with a normal kill with 8k DPS is not a bad player without even looking into the log itself to figure that out.

Bottom line is - being in top 140 with shitty DPS playing underrepresented spec does not mean that you ar a good player

[ZazuuPriest]

I wish I could have some of what you're smoking.

classic case of "i cant top meters so the spec is shit" mentality. maybe try crying less

[solvexx]

I too play a fire mage & I am also being embarrassed by its low DPS in raids. (ilvl 390).

While everyone else is posting double digit DPS figures in BOD, there is my DPS of 8-9 k showing to everyone on Skada/Recount.

I only feel ok when I am running with my guild .

And when the guild invites a Pug they sometimes comment on my fire mages low DPS. "Can we replace that DPS".
But my guild wont allow that to happen & will kick the pug if they keep that comment up.

On the other hand, Fire Mages are kicking butt in PVP..
And I usually average 3-4 killing blows in random BGs.
It is usually down to one spell. GREATER PYROBLAST. what a killer.. can take an enemies health down by half.

If Blizzard allowed Fire Mages to use Greater Pyroblast in raids.. wouldn't that be nice..

But you are correct OP.. at the moment in raids , I intellect buff.. provide a table & sometimes spellsteal
That's what I feel are my main abilities in raids are at the moment .

8-9k at 390? That's a l2p issue.

[Charge me Doctor]

8-9k at 390? That's a l2p issue.

Well to be fair, you could get targeted by random shit during your first combustion and get 0 pyroblasts out it, then during your second combustion, and maybe third. Then your DPS will be ~ how much damage you do with fireball per cast, which is 8-9k

[gutnbrg]

When were mages always on top? WoD?

the end of wrath! miss those days

[Irefusetodie]

Well to be fair, you could get targeted by random shit during your first combustion and get 0 pyroblasts out it, then during your second combustion, and maybe third. Then your DPS will be ~ how much damage you do with fireball per cast, which is 8-9k

?
You cast scorch during combustion. Fire has zero downtime during combustion unless you get ranged or are hardcasting a pryoclasm pyro and can't shimmer for some incredibly niche situation.

[Charge me Doctor]

?
You cast scorch during combustion. Fire has zero downtime during combustion unless you get ranged or are hardcasting a pryoclasm pyro and can't shimmer for some incredibly niche situation.

When i was typing that post i was looking at random parse of grong heroic where fire mage did 8k DPS and wasn't dead. During his second combustion he had just one pyroblast out. I wasn't reading that much into this log, but it's entirely possible that boss mechanics just screw you over, or on higher difficulty you have important task to do that impairs your DPS (like being varimathras clone bitch, sitting there at dozens of procs and waiting for clone to pop up to burst it down in seconds)
And by random shit i mean something like ferocious roar or MC totem

[Costa]

My issue is none of the specs are remotely fun either. Forgetting the poor damage we do in comparrisons to the pure ranged dps classes we compare with, the gameplay itself is not fun.

Frost - You can play thermal void spec where you spam icelance for as long as you can with frostbolt filler...or you can play glacial spike and cast a GS > FL > IL combo and do some nice damage for 6 seconds stationary cast, if you enjoy that then nice but that is not fun, frost wasn't about that when it was a thing years ago!

Fire - I mean combustion change from post MoP just ruined the spec for me personally, so my bias here might not be everyones way of thinking but it is for me. The ability to press combustion in MoP was amazing, add in snapshotting and it was just crazy numbers and fun. That was fire for me, peak AOE fire with still great numbers single target. Then they changed it to what it is now...a spell that is 100% crit for 10 seconds which just doesn't do it for me and how i see Fire being. Anyway, forgetting my combustion hatred, the spec is still the same boring it was from WoD where you are heating up fishing which is just pure RNG gameplay which is 0 fun. Remember our tier set in WoD? The random ass free Pyro procs you could get, that would literally ruin your opener / combust whatever depending where you got that, since then fire has been utter garbage.

Arcane - They just do not seem to know what they want from Arcane at all. Back of Legion it was great and during WoD at times it was great too, specifically remembering doing stupid numbers if you could stand still and cast, but they just tweak it every expansion for the worst it feels. Burn phase > Evocation > conserve phase > burn phase > repeat is all it needs to be, but they tweak it all the time. I would like a complete redesign personally but im sure that most justs want arcane to be the spec you play if you can stand and cast for 10 seconds in a RoP and be a burst oriented gameplay with decent conserve damage.

Anyway that is my opinion on the gameplay specs, damage can be tweaked but blizzard seem not to want to do that right now. Yes for sure Mage is useful for Stormwall...one boss out of 9 currently this tier for specific things we provide. Outside of that everything we give a warlock does better in terms of damage, shadow priest does better in damage and huntard does more damage / similar damage and has just as good if not better utility than ours as well. We are a purge dps class being out dps'd by the likes of elemental shamans and boomkins, that shouldn't be right, not saying they should be nuked but they have great utilities that we don't have. They should be nerfed on damage and buffed on their utilties even though that still makes them extremely valuable. But Warlock and Mages should always be comparable on damage especially single target in which they are so vastly different it is stupid.

I hope next expansion a true class overhaul is done, i do not care about better leveling quests or an exciting island expedition gameplay added if the spec of characters i want to play are boring and stale. Just put some more spells into the game that you can buff and nerf around, i mean why did frostfire get removed was fun in LK that, the ability to spec into things like that is way more vaulable to my gameplay than a 6 second GS > FL > IL combo to go from 10k dps to 20k and move around gradually that way lol.

This is just my rant and view on things im not asking anyone to agree with me fully, i also like reading everyones view on things and i am glad that people are posting their views on our stale class right now!

[Chymey]

Here is my 5 cents.

Been playing wow for 10 yrs in all classes and specs. My idea of the reason for playing mage is damage (ofc). Mage is supposed to stand at a distance and deliver high damage output. When mages are low in the damage comparison meters they usually complain and when they do they get the "reroll then" or the "stop crying" comment. That is a valid point but let´s put that aside for a moment because if u go down that road all complaints become invalid.
Balancing of specs is hard ofc, but I believe one must look at the total quality of the class. There are many classes that can rotate between roles and even use spec specific roles cross their specs. One example is the shamans ability to heal even when in other spec than resto. (Im not saying shamans are better then mages over all Im just stating the obvious) Another is warlocks, hunters and shamans ability to tank with a pet. The list goes on and should include all these special abilities.

All classes and specs have their own special feel and I have played them all over the years. What I notice playing a mage is that there is little to do to defend or yourself other then to do damage. Arcane can use greater invisibility and have a chance but otherwise it comes down to running and snaring while doing damage. Ice Block is great yes, but most of the time all it does is postpone your death 10 seconds. (other then in raid utility to mitigate large spikes). This way of playing is different to the other classes and their specs. Im not saying its better or worse - all Im saying is that the mages biggest asset and tool is his/her damage. Other classes have other tricks up their sleeves. Take a moment and think for yourself. Do the comparison with the other ranged dps first.

Having played mage a respectable time my conclusion is that the mages should always be in top when it comes to damage. They are designed to be damage dealers and nothing else. This is the difference from other classes. If the water elemental could tank or if the mage could self-heal or if they would have any of the other classes abilities the stage would be different.

In BfA mages are just an irritation. Easy to kill and low dps. Vendors sell food and shamans can bloodlust.

tbc

[JustaWarlock]

Having played mage a respectable time my conclusion is that the mages should always be in top when it comes to damage.

Lol. Typical entitled mage comment, especially considering the utility you bring.

Mages, warlocks, rogues, hunters all should always be top-class DPS as they're all pure damage dealers. To say mages alone should be king is a joke,

[Chymey]

Lol. Typical entitled mage comment, especially considering the utility you bring.

Mages, warlocks, rogues, hunters all should always be top-class DPS as they're all pure damage dealers. To say mages alone should be king is a joke,

It's not a mage comment. I play ele shaman and prot war. Forgot to add "it's a joke" to the typical excuses. My bad.
No matter what snark comment I still do believe mages should be in the top. Make your own claim instead of just debunking. I really want to read how you analyse the situation. Especially the "utility" part.

[The Archmage]

I don't necesserely think that Mages should be on top by design. I do believe that our utility is inferior to what other ranged pure dps specs provide though, such as Hunters and Warlocks.

Hunters, expecially, kinda have it all. Feign Death is an aggro reset on a ridiculous cd, they have a total immunity that still allows them to move around, long hard cc via trap, perma 50% slow via Concussive Shot, a pet tanking for them, decent mobility via Disengage, one spec that can do basically its full damage while being completely on the move and only share gear with another class (which is insane, if you ask me).

Warlocks are also superior with Gate, Healthstones and all their absorptions (which in group play makes healing them much easier).

Mage is designed around its mobility, that's what is supposed to make them special, and Blink/Shimmer does provide the best mobility any ranged class possesses. It is my opinion however that this has constantly grown less and less effective over the years. The fights are designed to be more dynamic with each new tier, and the constant need to move around makes abilities less potent cause their cd simply does not allow to have them available everytime you need them.
In a world where every class needs to be so often on the move having abilties that enable you to physically skip having to walk one or two times is not that impactful, while absorptions are there all the time and reduce the healing required, which is useful on every fight and in every occasion.

I don't think that this should translate into Mages doing flat out more damage, but i do think our class has grown "old" in terms of design and is long due for an overhaul. Warlocks had it (and complained about it veemently), but it seems it enabled them to shine brighter then they ever were able to (save MoP, in which they have been even too strong).
I would be up for getting the same treatment, cause it's pretty evident something needs to be done to the class at this point, in both tuning and design.

[Mayia]

Hi, former raider from tbc/wrath.. get over it.. specs and classes go in and out of favor, considering the bad job in bfa regarding the classes it isn't what they want.. just the closest they could settle on, level a rogue if you want to always do decent or above average dps.