Was the battle of Dazar'alor a fiasco for the Alliance?

[Zandalariprelate]

Yes it was!

[Jester Joe]

The Alliance had to conscript peasants for that battle, as established by the second Traitorfang cinematic. Why would the Horde's losses be even remotely comparable to that of Alliance when they were fighting a peasant army with actual soldiers?

Considering the Alliance takes control of the Zandalari war-dinos and rides them to destroy quite a bit of the army, I'd say it's pretty close.

Not to mention it was an assault, and then retreat while leaving enough to make the Horde believe it was still a full assault. Hence the point of the fog.

The Loa are immortal. The turtle already reincarnated. The Prelates that relied on Rezan are already back.

Source on Rezan being back?

Because there isn't one. As of right now, Rezan is dead and gone. Prelates mean nothing in that regard.

Aside from the fact that the Stormwind scenario was pro-Alliance plot contrivance bonanza that magically turned a complete twerp at combat like Jaina, who previously was so crap at combat she couldn't even faze a random Blood Elf Archmage with all of her might (and that was in a book written by an author extremely favorable to Jaina) into some kind of magic demigoddess, Kul Tiran fleet was only restored to its status quo. They didn't magically pull new ships from the mist. They released the old ones. And as Jaina and Blanduin said before reaching out to Kul Tiras, the very point of doing so was to match the Zandalari fleet (it's just that they didn't know that it got trapped because no one had contact with Kul Tiras at the time). Releasing the fleet wasn't giving Kul Tiras some kind of an immense boost over the Zandalari that you present it to be. It merely equalized them, as established at the very start of the story.

Why am I not surprised that not only do you somehow write off anything the Alliance does as "trash", but you completely twist what i said somehow into "new ships" when I never said there was "new ships". The ships were missing for a while at that point, their return fortified Kul Tiras and made it stronger than it was when the Alliance joined.

Again, the point of getting Kul Tirans was to match the Zandalari after Talanji escaped.

Because attacking the Horde becomes nearly impossible if they control the seas.

Anduin Wrynn says: If the Horde makes allies of the Zandalari, we won't have the power to stop them.
Lady Jaina Proudmoore says: Then we must make allies of our own.
Lady Jaina Proudmoore says: My people command the most powerful navy in all of Azeroth.
Lady Jaina Proudmoore says: If I could bring Kul Tiras back into the Alliance...

read your own source.

[Tweedzz]

Source on Rezan being back?

Because there isn't one. As of right now, Rezan is dead and gone. Prelates mean nothing in that regard.

The head of the prelates even mentions Rezan being gone and that she now simply serves Talanji. Loa are wild gods, wild gods can come back, but it took the took Cenarious years, and some wild gods took like 10,000 years. Torga is the quickest we have seen, but I doubt Rezan is coming back anytime soon without help.

[Jester Joe]

The head of the prelates even mentions Rezan being gone and that she now simply serves Talanji. Loa are wild gods, wild gods can come back, but it took the took Cenarious years, and some wild gods took like 10,000 years. Torga is the quickest we have seen, but I doubt Rezan is coming back anytime soon without help.

And in Torga's situation, compare the size difference.

It's probably going to take him a 1,000 years even to get close to that again.

[Feanoro]

Why am I not surprised that not only do you somehow write off anything the Alliance does as "trash", but you completely twist what i said somehow into "new ships" when I never said there was "new ships". The ships were missing for a while at that point, their return fortified Kul Tiras and made it stronger than it was when the Alliance joined.

Your mistake is replying to a known troll whose MO is to always twist words and flamebait.

[Rozz]

Yes, but the one and only reason for this is that the game needs there to be two factions. If this was an actual story driven game Durotars most prominent feature would be the 'Great Orgrimmar Memorial Crater'. We have two factions with Plot Armour so thick that it has a noticable gravitational pull.

Doesn't change the fact that, currently, the Alliance is winning the war at all fronts. It's the current narrative. Of course it will change with 8.2, 8.2.5 at the latest. Every single operation the Horde has started has backfired imensly.

Also, laying siege to Orgrimmar is easy enough. The Horde has no actual strongholds. Orgrimmar cannot be sustained or held, neither can Thunder Bluff, nor Silvermoon. Not by itself. It's why all these people joined together in the first place.

I agree with you that it's far from over. And since they want to keep selling addons, it's not going to be over, anyway. If anybody expects that one side will actually dominate the other, he or she is deluding themselves, which makes the entire base concept of faction war beyond dumb. The entire plot of BfA is 'We ran out of ideas for cool villains and good stories, so instead, we make controversial ones. Did Sylvanas just commit genocide so we can keep interest in out 14 year old game going? Who knows? Sub for 3 months to find out a little more."

I agree over game faction limitations but I see it working both ways. The thing that stops the Alliance from marching on Org is the same thing that stops the Horde from dropping nukes. The two factions have contrived methods and characters to counter each other, but it's why I feel BfA's portrayal as an 'all out' faction war is flimsy. Both are clearly pulling punches and Blizzard providing multiple sources covering the war inconsistently makes a suddenly declared winner feel cheap. (Well winner for this patch cycle like you mentioned)

If the Alliance is winning (which it is), I want it to feel like they're closing in and the Horde is truly screwed. That the Horde earnestly gave their all and it wasn't enough.That desperation would make Sylvanas' usage of a void dagger more legitimate and would make Alliance sacrifices feel worth it. Right now it just feels hollow, because of plot induced ineptitude on both sides.

- - - Updated - - -

The peasants the Alliance was forced to conscript at the start of that patch were apparently just what the Alliance needed.

That's probably why they're winning. All that human potential

[Lollis]

They link they can trash Dazar'alor, kill Rastakhan, and the Zandalari will go "We should've known better than to ally with you Horde. We did, and look what it got us! We're through!"

Horde Version:

Otoye: Like hungry predators, de Alliance monsters closed in on their prey.
Otoye: De heartless Alliance stormed de throne room. Our noble king defied them to de very end!
Genn Greymane: King Rastakhan of Zandalar...I order you to submit! You will bow before your new master, King Anduin Wrynn, and you will deliver your daughter to us as a hostage!

<Rasta Lines The Same>

Genn Greymane: So be it. Heroes of the Alliance...strike him down! No mercy for this savage!

Alliance Version:

Genn Greymane: King Rastakhan of Zandalar... On behalf of the Alliance, and in the name of King Anduin Wrynn, I hereby request your surrender.

<Rasta Lines The Same>

Genn Greymane: So be it. Heroes... you know what must be done.


Otoye is a liar, just sayin'

[Mehrunes]

Source on Rezan being back?

Because there isn't one. As of right now, Rezan is dead and gone. Prelates mean nothing in that regard.

OK, this is all of your brilliance I can take for now so I'll just respond to this bit: give me the specific post of mine saying Rezan is back. Hint: it ain't what you replied to there so you'll have to look elsewhere.

[ausoin]

I mean, it's Alliance. Them sucking at war and surviving just because some plot contrivance (usually some infighting within the Horde) has been their entire shtick as far as the faction conflict goes since forever.

Yeah just like the upcoming naga invasion, right?

[Jester Joe]

OK, this is all of your brilliance I can take for now so I'll just respond to this bit: give me the specific post of mine saying Rezan is back. Hint: it ain't what you replied to there so you'll have to look elsewhere.

"The prelates are already back"

They never left. They were always around.

Way to use your normal cop out though on the rest.

[Arrashi]

Horde Version:

Otoye: Like hungry predators, de Alliance monsters closed in on their prey.
Otoye: De heartless Alliance stormed de throne room. Our noble king defied them to de very end!
Genn Greymane: King Rastakhan of Zandalar...I order you to submit! You will bow before your new master, King Anduin Wrynn, and you will deliver your daughter to us as a hostage!

<Rasta Lines The Same>

Genn Greymane: So be it. Heroes of the Alliance...strike him down! No mercy for this savage!

Alliance Version:

Genn Greymane: King Rastakhan of Zandalar... On behalf of the Alliance, and in the name of King Anduin Wrynn, I hereby request your surrender.

<Rasta Lines The Same>

Genn Greymane: So be it. Heroes... you know what must be done.
Otoye is a liar, just sayin'

To be fair otoye version is far more truthfull to graymane character.

[rogueMatthias]

Don't overthink it. Alliance is just there to drive the Horde story. Even Teldrassil got fridged to drive Sylvanas and Saurfangs character development.

The King had to die so Talanji could become leader for her storyline continuation.

The Zandalari needed to be weakened considerably for it to make sense that they would need to ally with the Horde.

Oh look it's the Alliance with a very timely attack that serves no military purpose and, if anything, probably works against their goals!

[MechaCThun]

Well the Alliance succeeded in killing the king of the Zandalari trolls, so there is that. Their whole goal from the beginning was to somehow prevent the Zandalari from officially joining the Horde.

Although killing the king probably only made them join easier.

Also they have more-or-less lost Mekkatorque while the Horde didn't lose any leader. With that in mind, the Alliance: take this "L".

[Jester Joe]

Well the Alliance succeeded in killing the king of the Zandalari trolls, so there is that. Their whole goal from the beginning was to somehow prevent the Zandalari from officially joining the Horde.

Although killing the king probably only made them join easier.

Also they have more-or-less lost Mekkatorque while the Horde didn't lose any leader. With that in mind, the Alliance: take this "L".

Mekkatorque isn't lost.
By that logic, Baine is lost.

And we could continue on down how fractured the Horde is internally if you want.

The alliance attack caused Rastakhan to enter a bargain with Bwonsambi which even within the Zandalari caused a lot of opposition to Talanji becoming the leader because she's "cursed"

[MatthiasVonTzeskagrad]

Mekkatorque isn't lost.
By that logic, Baine is lost.

And we could continue on down how fractured the Horde is internally if you want.

The alliance attack caused Rastakhan to enter a bargain with Bwonsambi which even within the Zandalari caused a lot of opposition to Talanji becoming the leader because she's "cursed"

The bargain was actually struck because of blood trolls, tho.

[MechaCThun]

Mekkatorque isn't lost.
By that logic, Baine is lost.

And we could continue on down how fractured the Horde is internally if you want.

The alliance attack caused Rastakhan to enter a bargain with Bwonsambi which even within the Zandalari caused a lot of opposition to Talanji becoming the leader because she's "cursed"

True Mekkatorque isn't dead, but effectively rendered out of commission to the point of not being able to lead. Much like how Magni was initially when he was petrified. I don't remember if people considered Magni "dead" at that point during the story.

It's certainly looking like the story is heading into the direction of Mekkatorque needing some -- let's call it -- "cybernetic" enhancements to revive him. Which could introduce these new mecha-gnomes as an allied race.

And I didn't consider the Baine thing since he wasn't apart of the actual raid. I suppose Saurfang is another example of that.

[Thetruth1400]

The only problem with the original comments is that those people who attacked from the North to draw the Horde that way were volunteers who knew it was pretty much a suicide mission.

They weren't people forced to do it like Sylvanas does with her "allies"; sacrificing, raising, abandoning, as she sees fit.

That being said; sure, Blizzard will shoehorn some in fighting into the Alliance at some point, even though there really isn't much to be seen in terms of divisiveness. Sure, the Night Elves wanted to push harder in Darkshore, which they did alone (with the help of the players), but we've yet to see anything really division inducing like we have in the Horde. Alliance, the only choice right now is to do the quest or not, but neither has any hint of a massive game changing decision like the Hordes have been.

- Side with the current Warchief or side with the rebels and try to install an older, honorable Horde; that's a pretty big choice.
- Side with the entirety of the Alliance or one completely decimated and homeless race within the Alliance; doesn't really have much punch to it.

[Jester Joe]

The bargain was actually struck because of blood trolls, tho.

Brain fart, I rushed through that all in one sitting and it was the same area.
That's true.

True Mekkatorque isn't dead, but effectively rendered out of commission to the point of not being able to lead. Much like how Magni was initially when he was petrified. I don't remember if people considered Magni "dead" at that point during the story.

It's certainly looking like the story is heading into the direction of Mekkatorque needing some -- let's call it -- "cybernetic" enhancements to revive him. Which could introduce these new mecha-gnomes as an allied race.

And I didn't consider the Baine thing since he wasn't apart of the actual raid. I suppose Saurfang is another example of that.

Right. I don't think he'll be MIA though even for this expansion, he'll probably be back with the next major patch even. Although I guess it's possible it might be with the next expansion.

[Whitedragon]

You are kind of assuming that the Horde didn't also suffer major losses due to this attack, yes The Alliance pulls out and the Horde retake the city but it was at high costs to them and their new ally.

[Every Pwny]

You are kind of assuming that the Horde didn't also suffer major losses due to this attack, yes The Alliance pulls out and the Horde retake the city but it was at high costs to them and their new ally.

The Zandalari weren't part of the horde at the time of the raid, the horde did gained the Zandalari after the alliance lost the raid. Did the actual horde lose anything?