"Mythic Crucible of Storms will be just as hard as Jaina"

[Zyky]

"Average guild"? What is the population of guilds you are taking the average over? Because it sure as hell isn't all WoW guilds, or even all WoW raiding guilds, or even all WoW mythic raiding guilds.

The average guild or group of people who killed said boss in question. You can't have an average, for example Mekkatorque, including guilds who haven't even pulled him, it's common sense.

[Tech614]

Uunat is a mini-tier, it should not be as hard as jaina, esp if you want non-top end guilds to clear it. A lot of people will be in the situation we're halfway through BoD, and H is useless but M is too hard, so we don't do a brand new raid because of it, it should have its on tier of ilvl, not just a few ilvl higher.

ToV was a mini raid and Helya would take like triple the pull counts clearing the entirety of EN did(which was the main raid it was released under)...

What you claim should be the precedent is not what has been set in the past.

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To be fair, Emerald Nightmare is also the easiest mythic raid ever released.

Jaina alone probably takes most guilds double the pull count of the entirety of Emerald Nightmare.

EN was a typical entry raid opening tier difficulty wise with one exception.

Xavius was a fucking joke. If Xavius was a more legitimate end boss it would have been on par with Uldir and Highmaul from a difficulty stand point.

[Vynestra]

ToV was a mini raid and Helya would take like triple the pull counts clearing the entirety of EN did(which was the main raid it was released under)...

What you claim should be the precedent is not what has been set in the past.

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EN was a typical entry raid opening tier difficulty wise with one exception.

Xavius was a fucking joke. If Xavius was a more legitimate end boss it would have been on par with Uldir and Highmaul from a difficulty stand point.

I do also agree - just because it happened w/ ToV doesn't mean it should again.

I think both my points stand, 1. it's a bad design 2. just because it happened in legion doesn't mean it wasn't a bad design 3. CoS isn't leading us to BoD as the final raid of this "tier" if you wanna call the first 3 raids 1 tier, instead its the -last- raid of this "tier" (once again if you refer to the first 3 as one tier), and many people just won't experience it or spend much time on it, and that to me, is a failure.

ToV literally bridged the gap to the final raid of that tier, NH, so it isn't even necessarily the same case. Granted I only raided H back then, so it was fine for me, but now that i'm doing some mythic I realize it sucks.

[Xalvia]

Stuck @ Jaina, ~220 pulls or so and working on a clean p2. People are burnt out and getting a good roster is harder week by week.

Not looking forward to a 2 boss raid, i'd rather reload my batteries till 8.2.

They should have put the dev ressources in to the Azhara raid if you ask me.

[peter92q]

Killed by at least 3 guilds at the start of week 2. I doubt they'll ever make another Avatar of Sargeras/Kil'jaeden boss. Not saying I know sh*t about raiding but the recipe is always the same, 5:2:1 (free time available:good strategy:skill).

[D3athsting]

Wasn't tov overtuned like shit too? This is how filler raids work

[KaPe]

I can see plenty of CE focused guilds leaving Mythic Crucible for "later". The loot is really bizarre, many items look really undertuned or quirky, so even though it's supposedly higher level, it can be a real swing and miss. On the other hand, I wonder how wowprogress rankings will look after this. Will going 1/2M put people above 8/9M guilds who are pushing Jaina? It could possible make some people quite angry with "undeserved" rankings.

If they want another Helya, they should balance Jaina a bit more. Their last changes did almost nothing to the difficulty and having two 300+ pulls bosses at the same time is a little much for a typical "CE but only few weeks before it's gone" guild.

[Tehterokkar]

Wasn't tov overtuned like shit too? This is how filler raids work

Helya was slightly overtuned, but the overtuned part was easily bypassed by having 4 healers instead of 5 with Shadow Priests in the raid to mass dispel the debuffs. Since there were 5 debuffs, Blizzard probably tuned it super hard for 5 healers dps-wise, but the actual damage intake was not worthy of 5 healers. 1 extra DPS, and the fact that Shadow was still pretty broken at that time made it pretty meh in terms of difficulty, and the fight was just mostly learning the movement pattern.

[Dracodraco]

I can see plenty of CE focused guilds leaving Mythic Crucible for "later". The loot is really bizarre, many items look really undertuned or quirky, so even though it's supposedly higher level, it can be a real swing and miss. On the other hand, I wonder how wowprogress rankings will look after this. Will going 1/2M put people above 8/9M guilds who are pushing Jaina? It could possible make some people quite angry with "undeserved" rankings.

If they want another Helya, they should balance Jaina a bit more. Their last changes did almost nothing to the difficulty and having two 300+ pulls bosses at the same time is a little much for a typical "CE but only few weeks before it's gone" guild.

Usually when multiple raids are in the same "tier", wowprogress assigns a point-value to each boss kill, where the end boss of each instance is worth a massive amount extra compared to the ones before - EG, boss 1-8 is worth 1K points each (slowly going down in value over time so the first guild to kill get the most points and thus highest rank), and end boss is worth 50K (so anyone with end boss kill automatically is better ranked than anyone without).

[Axxil]

The number of Jaina kills is still tiny. Like ~300.

And the recent nerfs did very little to ease the encounter.

If nothing is done to greatly ease Jaina you're going to see an incredibly tiny number of people get CE in Crucible.

I don't have a problem with more mythic bosses, but it does kind of suck to not have enough time to progress them. Because you know as soon as Azshara raid releases in July/August the old raids are completely obsoleted.

If by very little you mean 60+ alliance guilds got their clear last week to finally open xrealm then sure.

[munkeyinorbit]

I mean look at Helya, the average guild didn't kill Mythic Helya until after Nighthold came out which was months later. I expect something similar, where Cutting Edge for Crucible will not be linked to the ending of Dazar'alor, but rather the ending of Eternal Palace.

You have to remember that the "average" guild had no business in Mythic raiding. They were carried by an easy first up raid and the artifacts. You can tell because in Nighthold these "average" guilds were demanding maxed out artifacts to even start while Blizzard had to come out and state, well no. Only for the last two bosses are they really needed.

Basically, if you can't beat Jaina in time, why are you even calling yourself a Mythic raiding guild? Because you are not. The new raid is tuned exactly for it's audience. If it is too hard for you then you are not the target audience. It is pretty simple.

[exochaft]

"Average guild"? What is the population of guilds you are taking the average over? Because it sure as hell isn't all WoW guilds, or even all WoW raiding guilds, or even all WoW mythic raiding guilds.

I'm on a medium pop server trying to help get a mythic raiding guild established that can do CE achievements. We finally have enough people after several months to have a raid every scheduled day (2 days/week), and it's still frankly hard as hell since we can't be picky due to server populations and no cross realm until really late into tiers. I'd describe this guild as an average mythic raiding guild if we're going by pure numbers. They're nowhere near the skill level of my old hardcore raiding guilds who could clear old heroic and mythic raids within a few weeks without much effort, but when it comes to perspectives you can't just discount the vast majority of guilds trying to do mythic raiding to the extreme few who can do it well and clear the content easily.

When it comes to Crucible and mythic difficulty, for guilds like my current one, it's a hard pass. Not only is the loot questionable, but interrupting an established progression tier with a new raid doesn't do anyone favors unless you're part of the extreme few guilds who have cleared BoD mythic and have it on farm. For the vast majority of guilds, this raid is going to be a hard pass at mythic difficulty unless they're extremely undertuned, not Jaina difficulty. The other problem is that this raid is used to progressed the storyline after BoD, not concurrently. If Crucible was to be released at the same time as BoD, I doubt this conversation would even be as big as it is.

Slight aside, I know there wasn't CE achievements at the time, but the quickest time between raids was likely in WoD with Highmaul and BRF. Highmaul was released in early December, and BRF came out at the start of February. I remember because we barely got mythic Imperator down in time for BRF to come out, due to the holidays cutting out 2 weeks of raiding. Effectively we had 5 weeks to clear mythic Highmaul before heroic BRF came out and dwarfed the mythic Highmaul ilvls.

*edit* - Forgot to mention: if I had my say in the matter, I'd make Crucible kind of an extra stepping stone to help those struggling with finishing mythic Jaina considering it's release timing. You could put their difficulty much closer to the first 3 bosses of BoD with the five higher ilvls to enable guilds struggling with the remaining part of M BoD better loots instead of outright nerfing the BoD raid.

[Zyky]

You have to remember that the "average" guild had no business in Mythic raiding. They were carried by an easy first up raid and the artifacts. You can tell because in Nighthold these "average" guilds were demanding maxed out artifacts to even start while Blizzard had to come out and state, well no. Only for the last two bosses are they really needed.

Basically, if you can't beat Jaina in time, why are you even calling yourself a Mythic raiding guild? Because you are not. The new raid is tuned exactly for it's audience. If it is too hard for you then you are not the target audience. It is pretty simple.

I disagree. Jaina is too RNG heavy and has too many aspects of even perfect play getting fucked by her last phase RNG. P1 and P2 w/e, but there are so many guilds who do P3 well and wipe because she decides to just stand in Icefall and spam cast making it so melee can't even hit her for several seconds. Icefall randomness in the last phase will literally determine if you're going to kill it or not, because if you have to move at all for Icefall in P3, odds are you're not going to kill it that pull.

If you took away the Icefall RNG like they did with Kil'jaeden and made it set locations in P3(which I'm aware isn't feasible because then you'd just have a set spot to go to and you'd never have to move as there's only 1 icefall in P3 then she dies), then I'd be fine with the overall difficulty of the encounter, but that alone is obnoxious beyond belief, spending 7 minutes just to get screwed because of RNG.

[Dracodraco]

If you took away the Icefall RNG like they did with Kil'jaeden and made it set locations in P3(which I'm aware isn't feasible because then you'd just have a set spot to go to and you'd never have to move as there's only 1 icefall in P3 then she dies), then I'd be fine with the overall difficulty of the encounter, but that alone is obnoxious beyond belief, spending 7 minutes just to get screwed because of RNG.

You could do it somewhat. The issue isn't that you're forced to move (because by this logic, the only way to actually avoid P3 rng is not having to deal with the mechanic at all - plenty of guilds have to move from the icefall and still kill it).

The issue are "overlapping" icefalls. So if they made them always cast in a cross-pattern, there'd always be 4 relatively big open spaces to hide in from it, and you're guaranteed one is close to where you're stood. The issue comes when it's a \/ type pattern, that literally only leaves two empty spaces in the arena to stand in, some of which might be filled with glacial-ray ice already.

[KaPe]

*edit* - Forgot to mention: if I had my say in the matter, I'd make Crucible kind of an extra stepping stone to help those struggling with finishing mythic Jaina considering it's release timing. You could put their difficulty much closer to the first 3 bosses of BoD with the five higher ilvls to enable guilds struggling with the remaining part of M BoD better loots instead of outright nerfing the BoD raid.

The problem with that is Crucible loot is really akward and not a clear upgrade over BoD items. There's a lot of randomness, a lot of quirky effect and even some "take extra damage to do extra damage" stuff, which is especially dangerous on a fight with constant raid damage. For me, I see maybe one upgrade and it's more of a sidegrade than anything.

Besides, people on Jaina already have 415+ loot from 8 different bosses. Crucible will only offer a couple 420 items... and that's assuming first boss will be easy on Mythic and not pre-nerf Odyn, who would completely crush a lot of guilds.

Well, unless it turns out that most of that gear will be really strong/get buffed very quickly. We'll see what happens.

[Kaver]

Hard bosses are the reason to play the game.

[Nitros14]

If by very little you mean 60+ alliance guilds got their clear last week to finally open xrealm then sure.

Uh those nerfs went in April 9th.

The Hall of Fame was full April 6th.

So the nerfs had literally nothing to do with it.

[Netherblood]

My only concern is as Hard as Jainna for Method or rest of us. When we killed Jainna we were like 5ilvls higher than Method which helps us close the skill gap. We won't be able to do that for crucible because our gear is already maxed out and Crucible gear is not that strong. Also Method due to splits runs has higher ilvl from TFs and like 10+ sockets on us. If its 300 pulls for Method its going to be like 500+ for most guilds and end up killing guilds.

Character progression and gearing systems are so fucked up in WoW atm, you max out on gear in like 3-4 weeks of new tier and then its just hoping for random TFs and sockets. There is a reason quite a few guilds extended on Jainna after 3-4 weeks of BoD. It used to be that content got nerfed over time through natural means of players getting stronger, that is no longer the case past first few weeks of mythic raids so CoS has potential to be a disaster that will need nerfs after 2 weeks.

[Nitros14]

I disagree. Jaina is too RNG heavy and has too many aspects of even perfect play getting fucked by her last phase RNG. P1 and P2 w/e, but there are so many guilds who do P3 well and wipe because she decides to just stand in Icefall and spam cast making it so melee can't even hit her for several seconds. Icefall randomness in the last phase will literally determine if you're going to kill it or not, because if you have to move at all for Icefall in P3, odds are you're not going to kill it that pull.

If you took away the Icefall RNG like they did with Kil'jaeden and made it set locations in P3(which I'm aware isn't feasible because then you'd just have a set spot to go to and you'd never have to move as there's only 1 icefall in P3 then she dies), then I'd be fine with the overall difficulty of the encounter, but that alone is obnoxious beyond belief, spending 7 minutes just to get screwed because of RNG.

The problem is that the fight was never designed to be done like guilds do it. Blizzard imagined that people would actually kill the images and get ice blocked and broken out in a staggered fashion.

Unfortunately since Blizzard did a very poor job designing Jaina, the optimal strategy is to zerg her in p3, which Blizzard never planned for and involves a lot of RNG.

[Zyky]

The problem is that the fight was never designed to be done like guilds do it. Blizzard imagined that people would actually kill the images and get ice blocked and broken out in a staggered fashion.

Unfortunately since Blizzard did a very poor job designing Jaina, the optimal strategy is to zerg her in p3, which Blizzard never planned for and involves a lot of RNG.

The problem is, Blizzard doesn't properly test their raid encounters, and when they do have testing they rarely listen to feedback. Don't blame the players for coming up with a creative solution to a fight that's numerically overtuned to do the way they "intend". It's time people started to blame Blizzard for their fuckups not the players for finding solutions to problems.