If the rumours are true - what do you think of the last Warbringer - Azshara now?

[ravenmoon]

Disclaimer - I'm not saying any of this is fact, it's more a what if it were true, where can this lead sort of thing.


That the rumours that she has imprisoned an old god and using its power. -- isn't it the other way round usually? - old gods who nearly defeated the planet, corrupted the titan keepers, nearly one via creating the nightmare in the Emerald dream... and we thought she wasn't powerful or significant any more.

If it's true, that's a rather incredible feat, but then again, something you may have expected of the sort of person that led the Kaldorei's greatest age.

Do you think we kill her in patch 8.2? That would be anti climatic I think.. although most expect this.. what if she wins against us for the first time, and becomes a major antagonist for next expec or even flips to an ally.

She has been in the back ground for a llong time, a mid expansion alone to deal with her who's been the head of the old gods strategy since the sundering .. seems a bit wasted. Now if all the pretext is making the naga the next "orcs" and the armies of the void the next "legion" baddie, then that's more like it.

what do you guys think?

[Leodok]

That the rumours that she has imprisoned an old god and using its power. -- isn't it the other way round usually? - old gods who nearly defeated the planet, corrupted the titan keepers, nearly one via creating the nightmare in the Emerald dream... and we thought she wasn't powerful or significant any more.

It's pretty fitting with the Warbringer, to be honest.

N'zoth was shown to be a spineless idiot who gets manipulated by Azshara just saying "if you don't do what I want you'll stay imprisoned". When she decides she doesn't need his help anymore, she just stops promising freedom and lets him stay locked up.

Do you think we kill her in patch 8.2? That would be anti climatic I think.. although most expect this.. what if she wins against us for the first time, and becomes a major antagonist for next expec or even flips to an ally.

She has been in the back ground for a llong time, a mid expansion alone to deal with her who's been the head of the old gods strategy since the sundering .. seems a bit wasted. Now if all the pretext is making the naga the next "orcs" and the armies of the void the next "legion" baddie, then that's more like it.

Her appearing at all is anticlimactic, she's an extremely shallow character that gets overhyped because she's been around for a long time and said to be really powerful. We've seen much better and more interesting characters being mid-tier bosses or worse.

[derpkitteh]

it would be incredibly fitting for azshara to turn on something she doesn't like working with and use it for her own purposes.

she wanted sargeras because she thought of him as her equal. that's how highly she views herself. n'zoth? n'zoth wasn't even the strongest of the four(five seemingly) of his own kind on the planet. there's no way she'd see him as her equal, she'd see him as a tool.

[Varodoc]

She has been in the back ground for a llong time, a mid expansion alone to deal with her who's been the head of the old gods strategy since the sundering .. seems a bit wasted.

So what? Archimonde was also wasted at the last 5 minutes of Warlords despite being the main antagonist of Warcraft III and one of the most important and powerful characters in the franchise. Kil'jaeden was behind the three great wars as well as the creation of the Lich King, yet he was killed in a mid-tier patch.

Azshara is neither stronger than Archimonde and Kil'jaeden, nor more important than them. So yes, she could very well die in 8.2.

And, forgive me, what rumors? What remotely suggests that Azshara is in charge and not N'zoth?

n'zoth? n'zoth wasn't even the strongest of the four(five seemingly) of his own kind on the planet. there's no way she'd see him as her equal, she'd see him as a tool.

And it will backfire on her. N'zoth is the smartest of the Old Gods as he has outlived them all against all odds. Even defeats ultimately work in his favour. N'zoth is way too smart to be deceived by a mere Queen, and he could see her betrayal coming from miles away. It is Azshara who is the fool if she thinks herself equal to N'zoth or even Sargeras.

[Hellspawn]

And, forgive me, what rumors? What remotely suggests that Azshara is in charge and not N'zoth?

The "Rise of Azshara" leak.
Also the Azshara raid journal supports at least that she is no more a servant of the N'Zoth anymore. Also N'Zoth wants us to kill her. Last point is... if she is not his servant why do his minions working for Azsharas goals then?

The warbringer clearly shows, while N'Zoth watched Azshara for years... he still did not understand her at all she could suprise him. So maybe he is not that smart.

[TigTone]

N’zoth plays the long and I mean very long game. He most likely planned for a betrayal. Since he also had a bargain with the old god in a knife Xal’atath. who know how many others are in debt to N’zoth.

[Hellspawn]

N’zoth plays the long and I mean very long game. He most likely planned for a betrayal. Since he also had a bargain with the old god in a knife Xal’atath. who know how many others are in debt to N’zoth.

We don't know how old that bargain is... also maybe so far Xal'atath had nothing interesting to exchange for her freedom.

Otherwise ... thats almost comical stupid to me. Did he also plan to get imprisoned by the titans in the first place all along?

[Felrane]

She thought she was worthy of banging Sargaras. Her somehow becoming an old god or similar to take over the power of Azeroth would make sense for her character. Though not sure if she still wants old Sarg considering his recent(every attempt at azeroth) failures.

[TigTone]

We don't know how old that bargain is... also maybe so far Xal'atath had nothing interesting to exchange for her freedom.

Otherwise ... thats almost comical stupid to me. Did he also plan to get imprisoned by the titans in the first place all along?

That is true, bargain age is an important factor.
Also, Blizzard writers imagine the possibilities or the lack of them.

[chrisisvacant]

So what? Archimonde was also wasted at the last 5 minutes of Warlords despite being the main antagonist of Warcraft III and one of the most important and powerful characters in the franchise. Kil'jaeden was behind the three great wars as well as the creation of the Lich King, yet he was killed in a mid-tier patch.

Both Archimonde and Kiljaeden were mid and end patch bosses at different times. I think they were sufficiently handled in terms of boss events. Now, the story in Warlords and Legion itself was not great and ended up stealing a lot of the gravitas behind killing these epic characters who were supposed to be ultimate big bads and eventually got relegated to henchmen. But it isn't like they were just thrown in randomly.

[Varodoc]

Both Archimonde and Kiljaeden were mid and end patch bosses at different times. I think they were sufficiently handled in terms of boss events. Now, the story in Warlords and Legion itself was not great and ended up stealing a lot of the gravitas behind killing these epic characters who were supposed to be ultimate big bads and eventually got relegated to henchmen. But it isn't like they were just thrown in randomly.

Archimonde was thrown randomly, there was literally no build-up whatsoever to his fight, and the only appearance he had made in that expansion prior to that was in a toy.

Archimonde was a mid boss in a Cavern of Times raid that had no weight on the storyline as it was literally just Metzen wanting to give players the opportunity to relive the conclusion of Warcraft III in an MMO. As for Kil'jaeden, his five minutes of spotlight in The Sunwell Plateau (after never appearing in the patch) hardly constitute a satisfying development for the most influential villain in the franchise.

[chrisisvacant]

Archimonde was thrown randomly, there was literally no build-up whatsoever to his fight, and the only appearance he had made in that expansion prior to that was in a toy.

Archimonde was a mid boss in a Cavern of Times raid that had no weight on the storyline as it was literally just Metzen wanting to give players the opportunity to relive the conclusion of Warcraft III in an MMO. As for Kil'jaeden, his five minutes of spotlight in The Sunwell Plateau (after never appearing in the patch) hardly constitute a satisfying development for the most influential villain in the franchise.

My point isn't that the story is satisfying. I said that it isn't.

But the suggestion that either boss wasn't given a proper boss event is arguable. The Archimonde fight in Hyjal is epic and amazing - especially for those of us who raided it when it was current content. KJ's presence in that same expansion was obviously intended as a prelude and the fight itself was also rather impressive in its day. Through the LFRification of raiding, you didn't have to work towards much to experience their second encounters, but they are still grand in scale.

It is the story that wraps around these events that is unsatisfying. But, as we all should know by now, story designers and encounter designers are not the same teams. The folks who designed these encounters did fantastic jobs. The people guiding the story... Not so much.

[Varodoc]

But the suggestion that either boss wasn't given a proper boss event is arguable.

I didn't say that the fights weren't epic or engaging, I said that those bosses were wasted.

The Archimonde fight in Hyjal is epic and amazing - especially for those of us who raided it when it was current content.

An encounter that had no weight on the World of Warcraft storyline and shouldn't even be taken into consideration. That was Warcraft III's lore. We didn't even fight the actual Archimonde who was defeated in Warlords, it was just a memory in the Caverns of Time.

The folks who designed these encounters did fantastic jobs. The people guiding the story... Not so much.

Which is what I said. Just because the Archimonde fight in Warlords was hard and flashy doesn't mean that Archimonde wasn't pulled out of nowhere and wasted.

[Reinhart11]

Killing her would be quite a waste. Especially because the Warcraft Universe lacks characters with some potential in general.

Blizzard on the other hand are masters in wasting characters and making villains act and look unbelievably stupid. Not that the so called heroic characters are any or much better.

[chrisisvacant]

I didn't say that the fights weren't epic or engaging, I said that those bosses were wasted.

Which is what I said. Just because the Archimonde fight in Warlords was hard and flashy doesn't mean that Archimonde wasn't pulled out of nowhere and wasted.

Umm, what you said was general and vague. Plenty of things can be interpreted by the statement. Learn to describe your feelings and then you won't have to respond to people annoyingly refuting your posts.

[Varodoc]

Umm, what you said was general and vague. Plenty of things can be interpreted by the statement. Learn to describe your feelings and then you won't have to respond to people annoyingly refuting your posts.

Learn to read and the things that people say won't be general and vague. Nothing I said in my original post had anything to do with the raid encounter, and if you hadn't noticed, this is the Story section, not the PvE. And you're not annoying me at all, I can easily debunk whatever arguments those are in 5 seconds.

[Super Dickmann]

I would find it even more frustrating that she's set to be bodied within one patch. Especially since Nazjatar already has so many aesthetic styles and could've easily supported more content. At least an end boss if not an expansion.

[chrisisvacant]

Learn to read and the things that people say won't be general and vague. Nothing I said in my original post had anything to do with the raid encounter, and if you hadn't noticed, this is the Story section, not the PvE. And you're not annoying me at all, I can easily debunk whatever arguments those are in 5 seconds.

That's just it - it isn't an argument. And as you can see, I read your posts. I just disagree with them regardless of their vagueness.

[Feanoro]

I would find it even more frustrating that she's set to be bodied within one patch. Especially since Nazjatar already has so many aesthetic styles and could've easily supported more content. At least an end boss if not an expansion.

1) Azjol-Nerub became two five-mans
2) Emerald Dream/Nightmare became a disjointed intro raid
3) Argus, an entire planet, became Legion's Timeless Tanaan Island

And there's more, just naming three of the worst wastes. Why would Nazjatar escape the mediocrity? If BFA hadn't had the retarded faction crap, it could have focused on Nazjatar and N'zoth instead of using it to bail out the Eternal Stalemate.

[Super Dickmann]

1) Azjol-Nerub became two five-mans
2) Emerald Dream/Nightmare became a disjointed intro raid
3) Argus, an entire planet, became Legion's Timeless Tanaan Island

And there's more, just naming three of the worst wastes. Why would Nazjatar escape the mediocrity? If BFA hadn't had the retarded faction crap, it could have focused on Nazjatar and N'zoth instead of using it to bail out the Eternal Stalemate.

KJ getting given some weird faux-redemptive moment in his one appearance in all of Legion except the excellent Tomb of Sargeras story then being unceremoniously killed so the final boss could be someone never implied to exist up until now along with an entire raid of nobodies (and Varimathras) is still the worst example in my view.