What is normal DPS in full Naxx gear

[kichigaijin]

The better question would be, "From Classic release date, how long before a guild has a full raid in full Naxx gear?"
A. 3-6 months
B. 6-9 months
C: 9-12 months
D: >12 months (my guess is this one)

[tikcol]

The better question would be, "From Classic release date, how long before a guild has a full raid in full Naxx gear?"
A. 3-6 months
B. 6-9 months
C: 9-12 months
D: >12 months (my guess is this one)

Why would that be a question if naxx isn't being released on day one and the schedule we have atm does not have dates..?

[kichigaijin]

Why would that be a question if naxx isn't being released on day one and the schedule we have atm does not have dates..?

So we agree, that everyone seems to be getting way way way way way ahead of themselves.

[Jastall]

1.2k DPS in vanilla is the equivalent of a rank 1 Mythic parse months deep into a modern-day raid: achievable in theory? Yes. Easy? No. Normal? No, because the raid has to bend over backwards to accommodate the parsing player (I remember us being forbidden from attacking the adds on Harjatan in Legion so that a hunter could pad off them one pull, for example), on top of getting world buffs in vanilla. Is it average? Hell no, only a few specs could ever reach that number, on only a few bosses, only in BiS gear, and only on speed/farm kills.

So yeah, it's kind of like claiming that people are doing 30k single-target in BfA. Not wrong in theory, but reductive in practice because only a handful of players ever did under very specific circumstances (and so help me, if someone links me a Champion or Opulence kill...).

[tikcol]

So we agree, that everyone seems to be getting way way way way way ahead of themselves.

The point is, private server data aside, classic WoW isn't new. It was done before, there's data from before.

[StrawberryZebra]

Because MTs get a lot of rage and Druids simply dont have enough buttons to convert that rage into threat.

So we could, logically, assume from that they'd have a threat pattern that was closer to a flat line than one that takes large upward spikes. They'd be pushing out max TPS all of the time, with all of their GCD's being Swipe and all their attacks being Maul. It would vary over time with Crits, Misses and so on, but all in all it should be relatively stable threat gain over the course of a fight.

Yet you're claiming that they've got burst threat, and I'm curious to know why that is. I'm not disputing the claim, only asking for an explanation, because it doesn't seem to make intuitive sense. If anything, I'd have expected Paladins to have the bursty threat generation - They have long cooldowns between Judgment and Exorcism with only SoR melee hits and Consecration to really fill in the gaps reliably.

[Thunderball]

So we could, logically, assume from that they'd have a threat pattern that was closer to a flat line than one that takes large upward spikes. They'd be pushing out max TPS all of the time, with all of their GCD's being Swipe and all their attacks being Maul. It would vary over time with Crits, Misses and so on, but all in all it should be relatively stable threat gain over the course of a fight.

Yet you're claiming that they've got burst threat, and I'm curious to know why that is. I'm not disputing the claim, only asking for an explanation, because it doesn't seem to make intuitive sense. If anything, I'd have expected Paladins to have the bursty threat generation - They have long cooldowns between Judgment and Exorcism with only SoR melee hits and Consecration to really fill in the gaps reliably.

I'm just saying as a Druid you're getting capped on threat generation pretty easy - all you can do Maul and Swipe. You're gonna sit on 100 Rage being unable to dump it. While a warrior has a lot of ways to manipulate it, especially if he's Fury spec. Not to mention that Druid just doesnt scale as well with gear.

[Charge me Doctor]

The guy is horde and with no worldbuffs though. Worldbuffs make an absolutely HUGE difference.

And won't be as accessible as they are on private servers...

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Well that's the kind of video I'm looking for, although the results aren't jiving. He did 750 in BWL gear and 800 in BiS Naxx gear. Although I've heard shadow priests scaled poorly with gear that seems pretty harsh. More importantly though, the videos I've watched of actual vanilla don't have the shadow priests nearly that high.

The thing about SP is that they are able to pull A LOT of DPS but get dry fast. So if you are talking about 4-6 minute fight - SP sucks balls. If you go for a record kill of patchwerk under a minute - they are good. That's the reason why you haven't seen much of them in vanilla videos - it wasn't profitable to funnel gear into them, especially since you had mages and warlocks competing.

[Super Kami Dende]

Yep, even these numbers are inflated; nobody did those numbers as consistent DPS because, funnily enough, they're closer to The Burning Crusade numbers.

Because the Ilvl Jump wasn't as massive between Vanilla/TBC. Those Numbers aren't really inflated.

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So we agree, that everyone seems to be getting way way way way way ahead of themselves.

When it comes to Vanilla, most generally do.

[Charge me Doctor]

Also consider the following factors:

4. Private server raids often use less healers than retail vanilla raids did, mostly because private server healers are:
- a) Simply put, better and more experienced players than their counter parts in vanilla.
- b) Better geared/optimized spec

You forgot addons and better latency (and connectivity in general). Nothing worse than having your mana burned into overheal, because you failed to interrupt your cast due to latency spike, and now you wasted mana and it seems that tank got hit by parry double attack.

[Super Kami Dende]

You forgot addons and better latency (and connectivity in general). Nothing worse than having your mana burned into overheal, because you failed to interrupt your cast due to latency spike, and now you wasted mana and it seems that tank got hit by parry double attack.

Oh my god. You just reminded me that nightmare of a mechanic existed. Fucking parry haste bullshit. Goddamn that was basically 99% of my bad luck in Vanilla. "Oh a boss has a small chance to parry, lets get parried every 2nd swing."

[Thunderball]

You forgot addons and better latency (and connectivity in general). Nothing worse than having your mana burned into overheal, because you failed to interrupt your cast due to latency spike, and now you wasted mana and it seems that tank got hit by parry double attack.

Latency didnt change much. Healing in vanilla is nowhere as reactive as it is on retail. It will make you lose to people with better latency outsniping you, but it has nothing to do with quality of healing really. If people need to snipe you have more healers than you need.

[Charge me Doctor]

Latency didnt change much. Healing in vanilla is nowhere as reactive as it is on retail. It will make you lose to people with better latency outsniping you, but it has nothing to do with quality of healing really. If people need to snipe you have more healers than you need.

How come latency doesn't change much? I mean, i understand that it's hard to remember when internet was shit, but stuff like having your ping oscillate between 600 and 2000 wasn't something not usual, so at some point you end up lagging through tank getting hit, which often lead to deaths if you were a dedicated tank healer.

I can't emphasize enough that net code from vanilla and net code today changed significantly, lagging now is nowhere near as bad as lagging back then.

[Thunderball]

How come latency doesn't change much? I mean, i understand that it's hard to remember when internet was shit, but stuff like having your ping oscillate between 600 and 2000 wasn't something not usual, so at some point you end up lagging through tank getting hit, which often lead to deaths if you were a dedicated tank healer.

I can't emphasize enough that net code from vanilla and net code today changed significantly, lagging now is nowhere near as bad as lagging back then.

Netcode has nothing to do with it. It was fine for what was required from healers back then.

As a human being you're wired to remember the shitty first, so ofc I remember the lags, huge ping, etc. But 99% of the time it had nothing to do with WoW. Vanilla was at the time when I (and most people around) switched to high speed internet, so most of the time actual connection was pretty good, it's just there werent any unlimited bandwidth options.

[kenoathcarn]

I'm just saying as a Druid you're getting capped on threat generation pretty easy - all you can do Maul and Swipe. You're gonna sit on 100 Rage being unable to dump it. While a warrior has a lot of ways to manipulate it, especially if he's Fury spec. Not to mention that Druid just doesnt scale as well with gear.

Feral druid actually has the highest TPS generation in vanilla, exceeding even dw fury prot, while its true that yes all you can really press is maul and swipe, maul has a massive threat multiplier and you will be rage capped on most bosses when using MCP's.

the downside of a druid is that there are bosses that are just impractical for them to tank.

some examples:

Chromaggus and not being able to use the sands without shifting.
Nefarion druid call forces you into catform.

another downside is vulnerability to opening burst threat missing, if you miss your first 2 mauls your kinda screwed

they're even way better at generating threat when they aren't the primary tank, (crit + idol = maul cost 3 rage).

there are many reasons why druids arent optimal tanks but single target threat definitely is not it.

[Charge me Doctor]

Netcode has nothing to do with it. It was fine for what was required from healers back then.

As a human being you're wired to remember the shitty first, so ofc I remember the lags, huge ping, etc. But 99% of the time it had nothing to do with WoW. Vanilla was at the time when I (and most people around) switched to high speed internet, so most of the time actual connection was pretty good, it's just there werent any unlimited bandwidth options.

Netcode has everything to do with it, since there is no situations when you finished casting a healing spell on target, but server didn't registered that fast enough, so it decided that target died first. Now these events resolve way quicker than they used to be.

So, you never missed a heal, when you was furiously clicking a button and spell simply didn't cast? I mean, things like these don't happen now, thanks to better connection in general (not you switching to high speed internet, but high speed internet being, you know, the norm).

[Thunderball]

Feral druid actually has the highest TPS generation in vanilla, exceeding even dw fury prot, while its true that yes all you can really press is maul and swipe, maul has a massive threat multiplier and you will be rage capped on most bosses when using MCP's.

the downside of a druid is that there are bosses that are just impractical for them to tank.

some examples:

Chromaggus and not being able to use the sands without shifting.
Nefarion druid call forces you into catform.

another downside is vulnerability to opening burst threat missing, if you miss your first 2 mauls your kinda screwed

they're even way better at generating threat when they aren't the primary tank, (crit + idol = maul cost 3 rage).

there are many reasons why druids arent optimal tanks but single target threat definitely is not it.

I'll pay you if you outthreat my MT on Vael. Totally serious. I know that's it's mathematically not possible I'll pay to watch you pull that off.

[kenoathcarn]

I'll pay you if you outthreat my MT on Vael. Totally serious. I know that's it's mathematically not possible I'll pay to watch you pull that off.

druid is highest threat on vael by far lol its actually one of the better druid tank fights...

[Charge me Doctor]

druid is highest threat on vael by far lol its actually one of the better druid tank fights...

That's why i find private server stats hilarious. DW tanking and bear tanks.

[Thunderball]

druid is highest threat on vael by far lol its actually one of the better druid tank fights...

I guess that's why there are barely any parces of druids beating 2k TPS, and pretty much any decent warrior can do it?

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That's why i find private server stats hilarious. DW tanking and bear tanks.

You can find it however you want to find it, but that's how top guild are going to play on Classic. If you dont care about top guilds it's fine, but please dont go into discussions about the stuff you dont know about/not interested in.