Why was the Spriest resource changed from mana to insanity?

[Azerate]

The classic idea of a "good" priest is that of healing and nuture. So if you want a priest that does damage, it's logical that they represent some kind of dark power/gods.

There's certainly nothing elemental about it

[RoKPaNda]

Uh what. Shadow was FINALLY in a good place in Cataclysm, only to get reworked going into MoP. Then they spent the next 4 years changing that playstyle, until Shadow was finally in a good spot in the middle of WoD again (the traditional AS playstyle, not the CoP one), and what do you know, another completele redesign for Legion...


Shadow got its 2 redesigns when we needed it the very least. Cata and WoD are the by far best designed versions of Shadow. We DO need another redesign or fix now though, because Shadow has been dogshit for all of Legion and BFA. Numbers have been fine sure, but the playstyle have most certainly not.

This is not a Shadow specific issue though. Blizzard has a tendencey to leave broken and shitty specs as they are for ages, but breaking and completely redesigning specs that finally feel good. Most "best designs" for every single spec got redesigned the very next expansion.

I don't know, Legion SP was very fun imo. BfA SP feels clunky.

[shise]

Glad that you ask.

Because shadow priests used to be a completely useless DPS spec who was pretty much there to give mana to the healers through Vampiric Touch.

This is much better and now priests can actually deal damage, hecks of it
Why would you even want mana back? even if there is a chance that it could work, it was a good system change for the shadow play style.

[oplawlz]

Glad that you ask.

Because shadow priests used to be a completely useless DPS spec who was pretty much there to give mana to the healers through Vampiric Touch.

This is much better and now priests can actually deal damage, hecks of it
Why would you even want mana back? even if there is a chance that it could work, it was a good system change for the shadow play style.

Those things aren't connected. Spriest has been a viable damage spec for much longer than the insanity change has been in place.

[Foolicious]

In legion they wanted to give priest more of the light vs. void feeling within the class. shadow taking the void part of course.

The problem here is that insanity itself is confusing in what we are trying to achieve. are we trying to go insane or are we trying to prevent it and how does voidform fit with this? You can't build a connection because you don't know what you are actually trying to do.

The other problem is that the shadow to void rework was halfassed. We still have vampiric touch and embrace, San'layn, shadow words etc. We don't feel like a void caster and we don't feel like a shadow priest anymore.

But having another ressource than mana isn't the problem. The problem is the system of primary ressource bars they introduced in legion which feels off for most speccs. It doesn't matter how you name it. Voidform is the main thing that sucks not insanity.

[ThrashMetalFtw]

I don't know, Legion SP was very fun imo. BfA SP feels clunky.

Legion and BFA have the exact same playstyle. Your voidforms are a bit shorter, but the spells you use, and the order in which you cast them is the same. If any of them felt "clunky" it was the Legion one, as you had way less tools to deal with multidotting and was punished WAY harder any time you had to do any sort of mechanic in a raid.

Both are ultimately inferior to the Cata (final version of the Classic SP), and WoD (final version of the MoP SP) designs.

[RoKPaNda]

Legion and BFA have the exact same playstyle. Your voidforms are a bit shorter, but the spells you use, and the order in which you cast them is the same. If any of them felt "clunky" it was the Legion one, as you had way less tools to deal with multidotting and was punished WAY harder any time you had to do any sort of mechanic in a raid.

Both are ultimately inferior to the Cata (final version of the Classic SP), and WoD (final version of the MoP SP) designs.

They're similar, but the difference in the shorter voidforms and the lack of fun set bonuses make all the difference in the world. Legion SP was fun and engaging for me, BfA SP is a total snoozefest.

[Krolikn]

You and your character are insane. Deal with it.

[ChairmanKaga]

For the sake of changing. I've yet to find someone who prefers Insanity over Shadow Orbs. MoP / WoD was peak SP and Blizzard just ruined it with the horrible Insanity / Void Form mechanic.

I do. There you found one.

[Noradin]

Insanity is a fun idea for class fantasy but it kind of feels undermined without the old Surrender to Madness talent to create a consequence of how bad it can really be when fully embraced.

It would have been a fun idea for a new class, but to force it on existing toons destroyed them for me.

[Powerogue]

Not sure. All I know is, having never played an spriest before legion, I despised it, since the whole "build up to void form" thing meant that you'd get to void form just as an enemy died, wasting it entirely. If you tried pulling multiple mobs at once, you'd die instantly because you're wearing friggin' cloth.

[Alkizon]

Soon-TM
WotLK spriest will always be the best version imo. You had some group utility with replenishment and old VE, and you had to be careful with not getting your shadowfiend killed or you'd be dangerously close to OOM. Legion/BfA spriest is a big letdown, especially the latter.

I have never had a priest, let alone a specific build, but this is just the closest to what our m.s.priestess was saying in MoP. She didn’t like something at that time already, I don’t know. But, imo, s.priests (as actually the whole class itself) are much closer to ritualists/occultists characters, it's kind of mix of dark and death magic (for example, vampirism/unholy magic), while h.priests are light and life, while discipline used the whole arsenal of possibilities to maintain “current balance value (life and death)&(light and shadow)”, because idea looked more in protective/response spells. But this is only my personal impression, which is trying to explain/substantiate common signs in whole class, main key talents feature.

As for this discussion as a whole (more globally), I’ll probably just quote a couple of friends' old phrases about this:
Quote №1 (16/06/2016)

- Unique gameplay and mechanics of the class? Ha! All are monks now.

Quote №2 (29/07/2016)

Yeah, shamans... guys with totems and elemental magic, aren't they? It's look like already not Hunters? Those guys with pets, traps and bows? Also already not. Rogues, those blade fighters with poisons (who fighting fast and critical so victim couldn't do anything) and stealth (who able to wade into tricky areas and disarm traps and unlock closed doors)? Paladins who own holy power, bless seals and always desirable in any group because of their ability to maintain unique granted auras? Warriors? DK? Mages? Priests?
*hopelessly head shaking* <url>

I tried to describe class of words that are characteristic of any of its representatives, but I almost don't see any such stuff.

Quote №3 (05/10/2017)

When people ask to unprune abilities and I look at my Priest I have to ask: "Which ones and why?"

<url> Because of synergy, real class fantasy (RP), functionality, and in the end, question should be formulated quite differently: Why, hell, not? - We did have them and we were fine!
'Silly' counter-question: why call one and the same spell by different names for different specs (artificial difference, dissimulation of complication), when it's better and more right to have 1 toolkit for the whole class, but modifier will work differently (talents) at the player's will (= choice) without changing name?

What brings us back to artificially conditionally useless "separation" - different names for same stuff for all classes (= specs), which in essence do absolutely the same work (= gameplay), levy one resource to spend on another in circle basis (with some, very insignificant already, amount of "additional", "unnecessary from raiders point of view"/out of rotation abilities) that fully corresponds to original monks mechanics, who mostly copied it from rogues. Insanity... holy power... just different names.

[tankbug]

Really? I loved it! I think it gave shadow priests a much more interesting identity. So a priest with just negative holy powers seems a bit lazy. Now they managed to really drag them into the Void/Old Gods fantasy, and Insanity is a cool resource bound to that lore. I guess I love all the dark and gritty aspects of classes, which is why I was always fascinated by Death Knights and Warlocks as well. I can't remember how those shadow orbs work, haha, but I know I love the voidform mechanic, because it makes the spec stand out more. And it's awesome to submit to the shadow magic to the extent that you take on physical attributes of the Old Gods.

- - - Updated - - -

Because 95% of DPS classes are now a builder/spender type design.

It's lazy and pathetic. This is what Class Design is now.

And how was this better before?

[Voidwielder]

I like it.

[tankbug]

For the sake of changing. I've yet to find someone who prefers Insanity over Shadow Orbs. MoP / WoD was peak SP and Blizzard just ruined it with the horrible Insanity / Void Form mechanic.

Hello! Now you have
I prefer a void priest, not the vague "shadow mage".

[Alkizon]

"shadow mage"

was warlock... once (~11:13)

[CritFromAfar]

Shadow Priests have always used the dark side and void magics to power themselves. Holy uses the light, Shadow uses the void and Discipline walks the fine line between both of them.

As far as I was concerned they only used shadow magic, and the 'shadow' aspect wasn't tying the class to anything else super overpowered or dark like void, old gods or mental disorder.

I am curious as to how Shadow Priests were ever "elemental" - unless shadow is an element, then no, no they are not.

Well, considering shadows aren't something Blizz just pulled out of nowhere, and light and shadow are actual parts of physics, I don't see how they couldn't fall under elements. 'Void' could have been a reference to dark space, rather than a void in your mind. The fear elements made sense, but they made it more dramatic when they tied it to insanity and old gods.

The Shadown Priest class fantasy is:

The Light in which many priests bathe is brilliant and effervescent, granting them immense divine power. But the brightest light casts the darkest shadow—and from within this blackness, a rival power dwells. Shadow priests fully embrace this opposing polarity, their faith equally resolute as their holy counterparts—but focused on shadowy magics and mental manipulation. Like all priests, they dedicate much of their lives to worship—but they derive their power from the Void, straying dangerously close to the domain of the Old Gods. To truly understand such ancient, corruptive influence is to be driven mad. This is the state in which these dark priests thrive, embracing insanity and feeding off of the minds of their opponents to reach terrifying new limits.
https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ne...-series-priest


But idk, in gameplay terms it's just another resource gather/spend system like any other and I'm not really sure that class fantasy idea comes accross very clearly. But this is the same problem every other class has as well. They're pretty words, but gameplay is just the same.

See, the bold part would be less dramatic and more believable for shadow. It's the old god & insanity part about the class that really loses me.

Because it's SHADOW PRIEST. Not VOID PRIEST.

Ooops... wait, what? o.O

Ahaha, that's where they getcha.

- - - Updated - - -

Uh what. Shadow was FINALLY in a good place in Cataclysm, only to get reworked going into MoP. Then they spent the next 4 years changing that playstyle, until Shadow was finally in a good spot in the middle of WoD again (the traditional AS playstyle, not the CoP one), and what do you know, another completele redesign for Legion...


Shadow got its 2 redesigns when we needed it the very least. Cata and WoD are the by far best designed versions of Shadow. We DO need another redesign or fix now though, because Shadow has been dogshit for all of Legion and BFA. Numbers have been fine sure, but the playstyle have most certainly not.

This is not a Shadow specific issue though. Blizzard has a tendencey to leave broken and shitty specs as they are for ages, but breaking and completely redesigning specs that finally feel good. Most "best designs" for every single spec got redesigned the very next expansion.

CoP was insanely (ho-ho!) fun in BG's. I'd usually just spam VT and SW:P until the insta-MS procs came rolling in, then I'd melt faces off. I didn't really enjoy Shadow in PvE.