Was the battle of Dazar'alor a fiasco for the Alliance?

[Oneirophobia]

Except that Nathanos himself states that they are losing on every front, so the Alliance is winning EVERYWHERE.

How ironic that Sylvanas started a war to ensure Horde domination across the world, and yet only led the Horde to the brink of annihilation. A shame that Varian is dead and his gullible son lacks the guts to push the advantage and end the war. Then again, if Varian was still alive, the war wouldn't have started in the first place.

The writing is just awful. If everyone acted in character:

-Sylvanas wouldn't have started a war immediately, she would have tried to manipulate the Alliance if she truly wanted to cause problems. She's not above torturing a zombie into killing his family in their sleep but she never thought to try similarly dastardly and manipulative things before going right for war?

-Anduin would have approached Talanji and Zul while they were captive just like he did Saurfang, he probably would have even offered to help Talanji with her issues and dissuade her from asking the Horde for help - not lock them away and risk drawing the ire of the "most fearsome fleet on the seas" the Zandalari had

-I don't think ANY of the Horde leaders would have agreed to jump immediately into war. Garrosh pounced on Theramore, Sylvanas pounced on Teldrassil. Not a SINGLE Horde leader stopped to say "hey wait a minute, the alliance and horde are the closest to peace they've ever been, are you fucking serious right now?"



It's just getting sillier and sillier as the patches roll by.

[Jester Joe]

I wonder what the "fully" part of "fully manned" in @Every Pwny's post means...

You know, those ships sailing out not fully manned to intercept the Kul Tirans

[MatthiasVonTzeskagrad]

Not really, most of the ships that were destroyed were docked (non-docked ships were sent to Nazmir) it doesn't mean the docked ships were fully manned and more than likely they were not. You can say something is in ruins with not all of it destroyed, it doesn't mean the whole thing is destroyed. The only actual estimate we get is from Shaw, Talanji is more just upset with how much is destroyed.

The gunners were there, tho, and most of the fleet was docked (Rez'okun told you he had just a bunch of ships ready). A nice percentage of sailors got killed.

[ophion1990]

He's called the Forsaken and the Horde monsters because of their actions.

He has no reason to hate the Zandalari, so no reason to call them monsters. There's nothing out of character about it.

Just watch how he treats anyone who's suffering a loss for example, or how he treats anyone who's lost their home/at risk of losing their home. He's gruff, but he's always sympathize with people going through similar pain.

What's FAR more out of character is the idea of him demanding someones child when he knows the pain of losing a child.

This all falls apart when you remember that Talanji was already imprisoned in SW before all of this, though. I believe his line during that scenario was "I have found them, my king! I will bring you their hides for a trophy!". Unless you're gonna argue that he'd only kill the parentless people present. Loss hurts, yes, but Greymane is not an idiot, war is war.

That aside, I did clearly say that the truth would be in between the 2. He didn't nescessarily ask for Talanji to be captured, I just also don't see him asking for surrender in such a fashion.

[Jester Joe]

This all falls apart when you remember that Talanji was already imprisoned in SW before all of this, though. I believe his line during that scenario was "I have found them, my king! I will bring you their hides for a trophy!". Unless you're gonna argue that he'd only kill the parentless people present. Loss hurts, yes, but Greymane is not an idiot, war is war.

That aside, I did clearly say that the truth would be in between the 2. He didn't nescessarily ask for Talanji to be captured, I just also don't see him asking for surrender in such a fashion.

Literally the ONLY WAY what he said could be different is if the alliance was being told the story.

They WEREN'T though.
What he said on the Alliance side is what was really said. There isn't room to debate it. They were actually there in person.

And nothing about Talanji being imprisoned means that Genn put her there, nor that he was talking about her upon finding a Horde group that she was with.

It's almost as if in that post as a whole I was arguing against your overall notion of how terribly beaten the Zandalari were or something... For which you provided the amazing example of Rezan. Who had two primary roles: being the Loa of Kings and being the source of power for the Prelates. Bwomsamedi almost immediately replaced him in the first role. And the Prelates already found new source of power and new Zandalari Paladins are merrily running around. Which renders the biggest consequences of Rezan's death in terms of power of the Zandalari moot. Which was the point of mentioning that Prelates are back. If I wanted to say Rezan is back I'd say Rezan is back, because words mean things. Shocking, I know.

Also now that I'm at a computer to get back to this.

1) I didn't say the Zandalari were "terribly beaten", I said they were worse off at the end of the story. Weaker. For someone who criticizes everyone else on not being able to read and on other's intelligence, I expected a bit better.

2) Rezan being a power source of the Prelates obviously doesn't matter. As you said, they still have their source of power. So it's irrelevant as to if Rezan is dead or not.

3) A major part of Zandalari's way of fighting is calling on the power of the loas. Whether or not you want to sit there and go "but the Prelates still have their powers!", last I checked neither Talanji nor Rastakhan are Prelates yet both called up Rezan for help. Your logic of "The prelates are still around" is the equivalent of an army losing a tank and going "Well we still got guns, the tank didn't matter!". Especially considering how loas aren't adverse to taking to combat themselves.

So while it may have been faulty for me to assume you meant Rezan was back by the Prelates comment, apparently it was also faulty of me to assume what you were saying wasn't just simple goalpost moving.

[ophion1990]

Literally the ONLY WAY what he said could be different is if the alliance was being told the story.

They WEREN'T though.
What he said on the Alliance side is what was really said. There isn't room to debate it. They were actually there in person.

Yes, because noone has ever pretended to be better than they actually are. As for not open for debate, I wanted to talk about it, if you don't, cool, I don't see why you keep responding then, though. But to explain my reasoning yet again. In Jade Forest, for example, you see both factions working with pandaren, yet from the opposing faction's perspective, it's not voluntary, it's forced labour. Clearly you're seeing yourself as better than you actually are, since the pandaren you free, do seem happy they can go back home.

And nothing about Talanji being imprisoned means that Genn put her there, nor that he was talking about her upon finding a Horde group that she was with.

When did I say he did and why is it even relevant? Genn is literally the guy that wanted to commit genocide after the second war. You really think he'd hesitate to kill someone's kid or take them prisoner? Same thing in SW, you think he'd let Talanji do her thing, kill everyone else and arrest her again, because Talanji's dad might be upset otherwise? You have to recognize that you are making no sense here, right?

[Jester Joe]

Yes, because noone has ever pretended to be better than they actually are. As for not open for debate, I wanted to talk about it, if you don't, cool, I don't see why you keep responding then, though. But to explain my reasoning yet again. In Jade Forest, for example, you see both factions working with pandaren, yet from the opposing faction's perspective, it's not voluntary, it's forced labour. Clearly you're seeing yourself as better than you actually are, since the pandaren you free, do seem happy they can go back home.

Because your example is wrong. Just look at the map of where these two camps are that you're comparing.

The Horde crashes on the north side of Jade Forest, and deals with the Alliance in the north half.
The Alliance lands on the south side, and deals with the Horde in the south half.

Neither are overlapping or from different perspectives, they're in COMPLETELY different spots with COMPLETELY different people. The forced labor part actually happens in both cases because story wise its the only way that made sense for the factions to still align with Pandaren.

And why I say its not open for debate is because what you're trying to discuss is the equivalent of going "yes I know Deathwing was consumed by madness, but what if he wasn't and now I'm going to say he was also never insane". You're trying to change what happens in canon to fit what you think it is.

Genn didn't demand a hostage, he didn't demand that Rastakhan bowed to Anduin. The Horde side suffers from an unreliable narrator.

When did I say he did and why is it even relevant? Genn is literally the guy that wanted to commit genocide after the second war. You really think he'd hesitate to kill someone's kid or take them prisoner? Same thing in SW, you think he'd let Talanji do her thing, kill everyone else and arrest her again, because Talanji's dad might be upset otherwise? You have to recognize that you are making no sense here, right?

Considering he didn't ask for a hostage? Yes.
And what are you even talking about? You're the one who brought up that she was imprisoned, what does that have to do with Genn? If it had nothing to do with him, there wasn't much point to bringing it up.

Also how are you arguing with canon while claiming others aren't making sense?

[ophion1990]

Because your example is wrong. Just look at the map of where these two camps are that you're comparing.

The Horde crashes on the north side of Jade Forest, and deals with the Alliance in the north half.
The Alliance lands on the south side, and deals with the Horde in the south half.

Neither are overlapping or from different perspectives, they're in COMPLETELY different spots with COMPLETELY different people. The forced labor part actually happens in both cases because story wise its the only way that made sense for the factions to still align with Pandaren.

And why I say its not open for debate is because what you're trying to discuss is the equivalent of going "yes I know Deathwing was consumed by madness, but what if he wasn't and now I'm going to say he was also never insane". You're trying to change what happens in canon to fit what you think it is.

Genn didn't demand a hostage, he didn't demand that Rastakhan bowed to Anduin. The Horde side suffers from an unreliable narrator.

It's still an example of the factions pretending like the other is worse than them, no? But w/e, I'll never think Genn isn't acting OOC there, I'll live with it and cease speculations.

Considering he didn't ask for a hostage? Yes.
And what are you even talking about? You're the one who brought up that she was imprisoned, what does that have to do with Genn? If it had nothing to do with him, there wasn't much point to bringing it up.

Also how are you arguing with canon while claiming others aren't making sense?

I purposefully split up my post in 2 quotes, I said you don't make sense in pretending like Genn wouldn't go after Talanji, since he'd feel for Rastakhan, recognize his grief. As for Genn not being the one to lock her up initially, it's irrelevant since he seemed eager enough to obey his king in "retrieving" her. Unless you're gonna argue that Genn would have cut Talanji loose after stopping the Horde forces in Stormwind. That what I mean by you not making sense, that the guy who is okay with genocide is such a soft hearted weakling that he wouldn't arrest someone's daughter.

[Doffen]

It was a great success.

Except the bringing Zandalari closer to the Horde. Too bad. Made it possible to make Zandalari characters though, so win win.

[Leodric]

The only fiasco in that case is the Alliance not pushing forward and giving the Zandalari a death blow. For now the Horde is losing as established by several in game sources from both sides, it's amusing to read some horde head canon though, keep it up guys.

[Jester Joe]

It's still an example of the factions pretending like the other is worse than them, no? But w/e, I'll never think Genn isn't acting OOC there, I'll live with it and cease speculations.

He's only acting out of character if you didn't read the newest book where he realizes he was being over the top about his hate for all of the Horde.

I purposefully split up my post in 2 quotes, I said you don't make sense in pretending like Genn wouldn't go after Talanji, since he'd feel for Rastakhan, recognize his grief. As for Genn not being the one to lock her up initially, it's irrelevant since he seemed eager enough to obey his king in "retrieving" her. Unless you're gonna argue that Genn would have cut Talanji loose after stopping the Horde forces in Stormwind. That what I mean by you not making sense, that the guy who is okay with genocide is such a soft hearted weakling that he wouldn't arrest someone's daughter.

No, I'm saying he would have locked her up again sure, but you're talking about a jail that Anduin seems to have no issue letting people free from.

Granted, still a bit unclear on how she even ended up in there but it's a bit different from "She was arrested and captured" to "I demand her as a hostage".

[ophion1990]

He's only acting out of character if you didn't read the newest book where he realizes he was being over the top about his hate for all of the Horde.

His hate of the Horde or his hate of the Forsaken? I remember is him recognizing that the Forsaken were were still humans aswell, not just monsters. I don't recall that actually transfering over to orcs and trolls aswell. It's quite different since the humans of Lordaeron are former allies and of the same race, and it's understandable that Genn would be sorry for them, considering he was sitting behind his wall while they were slaughtered.

No, I'm saying he would have locked her up again sure, but you're talking about a jail that Anduin seems to have no issue letting people free from.

Granted, still a bit unclear on how she even ended up in there but it's a bit different from "She was arrested and captured" to "I demand her as a hostage".

Anduin releasing Saurfang could still be a tactically sound move, since it sets up another force against Sylvanas, to help weaken the Horde and win the war. Having Talanji locked up would give the Alliance leverage to prevent the Zandalari from siding with the Horde. They're not really the same situation. Same way that they would have leverage if Gmane took Talanji hostage during BoD. Genn is in a war and in the middle of battle on enemy territory, it's not even a matter of him being compassionate, not being capable of taking Talanji by force makes him out to be an actual idiot, considering ending that the Zandalari/Horde Alliance could save countless lives down the line.

Again, I said that I believe that both stories would be false and the truth would be in between. In other words: Genn tells Rastakhan "You will surrender or you will lay down your life", something like that. Which sounds more like something Genn would say rather than "King Rastakhan of Zandalar... On behalf of the Alliance, and in the name of King Anduin Wrynn, I hereby request your surrender". We're talking about the guy who went after Sylvanas about a year ago, canonically. Greymane knew full well he was attacking the warchief of the Horde and could cause war. Heck, it might have been part of the reason why war was so easy to sell for Sylvanas. I just don't see how you go from doing something rash and brazen, to acting like that.

[Jester Joe]

His hate of the Horde or his hate of the Forsaken? I remember is him recognizing that the Forsaken were were still humans aswell, not just monsters. I don't recall that actually transfering over to orcs and trolls aswell. It's quite different since the humans of Lordaeron are former allies and of the same race, and it's understandable that Genn would be sorry for them, considering he was sitting behind his wall while they were slaughtered.

His hate has always been Forsaken centered in terms of WoW. Perhaps in the past he was different, but with WoW he's been focused on Sylvanas and the Forsaken specifically.

Anduin releasing Saurfang could still be a tactically sound move, since it sets up another force against Sylvanas, to help weaken the Horde and win the war. Having Talanji locked up would give the Alliance leverage to prevent the Zandalari from siding with the Horde. They're not really the same situation. Same way that they would have leverage if Gmane took Talanji hostage during BoD. Genn is in a war and in the middle of battle on enemy territory, it's not even a matter of him being compassionate, not being capable of taking Talanji by force makes him out to be an actual idiot, considering ending that the Zandalari/Horde Alliance could save countless lives down the line.

The thing is we don't really know why the Alliance even had her. It was only after the Horde helped release her that the Alliance realized that the Horde is trying to align with the Zandalari.

Again, I said that I believe that both stories would be false and the truth would be in between. In other words: Genn tells Rastakhan "You will surrender or you will lay down your life", something like that. Which sounds more like something Genn would say rather than "King Rastakhan of Zandalar... On behalf of the Alliance, and in the name of King Anduin Wrynn, I hereby request your surrender". We're talking about the guy who went after Sylvanas about a year ago, canonically. Greymane knew full well he was attacking the warchief of the Horde and could cause war. Heck, it might have been part of the reason why war was so easy to sell for Sylvanas. I just don't see how you go from doing something rash and brazen, to acting like that.

Because you have higher expectations of Blizzard's story than they deserve perhaps.

Whether it makes no sense or not, he could have said "Hey let's have our daughters get married" while the Alliance was there and that would still be the canon event. The Horde side is a retelling by a bias narrator.

Remember, the point was to get the Zandalari to willingly surrender peacefully and to break the bond with the Horde. Threatening Rastakhan's life wouldn't quite have that effect.

[Seylene]

It didn't really serve any purpose at all. I mean it was the climax to the whole finding the Kul'tiran fleet and they don't even show up. It was just Blizz misreading the room again. Horde attacks Alliance. Alliance respond by assaulting a neutral party. It's gotten rather tedious. I guess the good event from it is we see Jaina can hold back a horde army on her own but I am kind of sick of Jaina already.

[Zuben]

If I understood correctly killing Rastakhan wasn't the plan. Anduin was hoping he'd surrender in the face of Alliance's might, in which case Horde would lose a primary asset. That failed, but I'd still say destroying the fleet was worth it. At this time Alliance is considered to be winning the war.

Although for all we know Sylvanas never planned to win through might, but through subterfuge, such as planting a sleeper agent amidst the Kul Tirans and making use of Knaifu (Lordaeron was all about maneuvers like that). From that perspective the Zandalari aren't more than an unwitting decoy for the Alliance to focus on, in which case assaulting Dazar'alor was folly.

[etheldald]

it was a fiasco if we count the random objective of cutting their bonds.
apart from that i would say that everything else went pretty good for the alliance.
we disabled their fleet, we killed their king and we escaped without losing anyone of importance, we even got the chance to see jaina /flexing a raid of players and surviving the murder hobos. that is a win in my book.

we ended up so good that the events after the raid and the fact that jaina survived is what triggered derek being raised and post baine arrest that is currently leading to a civil war.
so.. i don't think that it was a fiasco.

[Cobman]

Ofc it was fiasco, it was x.1 patch of the expansion, there shouldnt be any real victories or loses at this point.

[Zuben]

That makes little sense considering Sylvanas never even knew she would get Derek (wasn't looking for him) and did not know Knaifu existed or at least that she survived after we used her against Gorribal.

Point being subterfuge is how Sylvanas operates. How exactly develops the further we go on. She was happy to leave the conventional side of War of Thorns up to Saurfang, from planning to execution, herself only considering the psychological effect on the night elves (hence the burning of Teldrassil as Malf and Tyrande had survived). When she herself lead the battle for Lordaeron all of Horde's major moves were anything but conventional. In the War Campaign she had us track the corpse of a Kul Tiran commander named Valentine. For the amount of effort we put on the task I'd say he was meant for bigger things than simply informing the enemy that we had Derek's corpse. The plan for him likely altered because we found Derek; I'm only guessing here, but I bet Valentine was meant to be the sleeper agent. Derek fit that role far better, so at that point Valentine may as well just be a messenger. Also, the other part of that point of the campaign was to acquire the ocean-controlling artifact.

Take this recent quote:

Spoiler: 

Lady Sylvanas Windrunner: The Alliance believes that by striking down Rastakhan and decimating the Zandalari fleet, they have broken us. That the Horde will soon crumble.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner: Fools. The boy-king has lied to himself and his people. He hasn't the faintest inkling of what he's truly up against.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner: War is a living thing. It writhes, it grows, twisting and turning until its final form is revealed.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner: This war is about to shift yet again. And it will be this blade that guides our way to victory.

From that I take Sylvanas doesn't indeed know beforehand what aces she's to acquire, but is quick to form a plan when she finds one. She hasn't personally lead any operation after Lordaeron, leaving it to Nathanos and other commanders. When Talanji confronted Sylvanas about the destroyed fleet she was rather unfazed, which I find relevant to my point considering how vital the ships would be for conventional warfare. Her armies succeeding in their operations or not, Sylvanas leaves that side to others, while seeking nukes herself.