Lor’themar and Nathanos at the forefront in 8.2

[Coffer]

I assume most people, who get their feelings hurt by Nathanos, neither played sports for a hard assed coach or served in the military. Having done both those things (no, I don't consider myself special) I actually find his flavor of condescension entertaining. He is my favorite horde "boss".

So? Those kinds of people are every bit as trashy as Nathanos is and nobody should ever have to experience being under such a person, but such people existing is hardly a problem compared to how poorly written Nathanos is. That'd be fine if people weren't used to better writing from Blizzard, but they quite rightly are, and he happens to be the most notable example of that downfall in quality in years.

It would still be difficult for a character that existed for 15 years, long before Danuser worked at Blizzard, with the same personality, backstory, and general characteristics that he has in BfA to be a self-insert. Unless Danuser is a time-traveler who went back to insert himself into the story back in Classic WoW.

You greatly overestimate that difficulty. Even the weakest of writers can take a character and evolve them in a direction of their choosing while maintaining the primary components of their personality - in fact, it's often a great way to get better at writing because you already know what limitations you're working with, unlike with a complete blank slate. That alone would be enough to forgive Nathanos if there was literally anything besides his bewilderment towards Sylvanas choosing to burn Teldrassil that showed any sort of tangible evolution in his writing quality.

[Syegfryed]

I assume most people, who get their feelings hurt by Nathanos, neither played sports for a hard assed coach or served in the military.

but this is a coach with no backup better than mine except sleeping with the team manager, or a captain giving orders to a general

[Super Dickmann]

Because he only exists to say Sylvanas things in an expansion where she only appears to do eeeevil stuff. It's like they took the snarky side of her and manifested it in another being (after one last showing in Lordaeron). Leaving one character who is snarky and nothing else thus feels undeserving of tossing around said snark, and another who is a lolevil caricature without the entertainment factor that can make such characters work.

I do agree that Jaina's omnipresence is also starting to be a bit off (seriously, her being wounded after we beat the snot out of her in BoD would have been an excuse to shift focus to someone else for a patch at least) and hope that more Alliance characters get to do things in 8.2. Outside of cinematics which were Jaina city, the Allies are a lot more diverse than the Horde in the doing-stuff front so far. I think having Tyrande or Malfurion (with the other one holding the fort in Darkshore) assisted by Genn would make a good duo while old Mekkatorque deals with Mechagon most likely.

I imagine I'd have more issue with Nathanos being around if anyone but Gallywix and Talanji (and the rest of the Zandalari cast to be fair) were remotely tolerable, but I'd gladly accept any amount of screen time for him if it keeps the noblesavage squad away from my quest log.

Sylvanas is a bit like Anduin in that both have about the same amount of screen time, but have radically different roles in the plot. Anduin's exclusion makes sense since we know what he's about and at least until he decides to start healing the Horde leaving it to his generals while he's more of an inspirational figure works. Sylvanas is 100% a caricature in this one and despite her being the entire impetus behind the plot it's only in 8.2 that we might get an idea at what she wants to 'actually' achieve. At the same time, the entirety of the Horde plot rotates around her supposed tyranny and viciousness when courtesy of never appearing she's detached from everything post-Lordaeron except Derek.

[Aucald]

And it doesn't occur to you that perhaps Danuser, who came in later, took the character and made changes to him to make him his Mary Sue? Doesn't have to create the character first to do that if someone has creative control, or haven't you heard of Frank miller's take on batman?

Except he didn't really change the character in any way - the major traits Nathanos possesses (snarky disposition and loyalty to Sylvanas stemming from a possibly unrequited love) have been present since Classic. How exactly does the influence of Danuser suddenly make him a "Mary Sue?" He was always a peerless archer and he started in WoW as an almost de facto raid boss of a kind, etc. etc.

- - - Updated - - -

You greatly overestimate that difficulty. Even the weakest of writers can take a character and evolve them in a direction of their choosing while maintaining the primary components of their personality - in fact, it's often a great way to get better at writing because you already know what limitations you're working with, unlike with a complete blank slate. That alone would be enough to forgive Nathanos if there was literally anything besides his bewilderment towards Sylvanas choosing to burn Teldrassil that showed any sort of tangible evolution in his writing quality.

This would be more possible if Danuser had done anything to make Nathanos his, as I said above. But Nathanos is mostly unchanged, the only major change he had undergone is the gift of a new model through a dark ritual - a model that just so happens to be slightly based off Danuser's features. Beyond that the character is unchanged: he's still loyal to Sylvanas, he's still the Ranger Lord he was in Classic, he's still an ass, etc. etc. He's rose in the ranks of the Horde alongside Sylvanas but that makes sense as well - he's Sylvanas' champion and possible mortal lover, always has been, and as her star ascended it scans that his would as well.

[united]

It would still be difficult for a character that existed for 15 years, long before Danuser worked at Blizzard, with the same personality, backstory, and general characteristics that he has in BfA to be a self-insert. Unless Danuser is a time-traveler who went back to insert himself into the story back in Classic WoW.

e x a c t l y

Nathanos has always been like this, way before Danuser even got a job working for blizzard.

[Jastall]

e x a c t l y

Nathanos has always been like this, way before Danuser even got a job working for blizzard.

Anduin existed before Golden was a thing, but he was turned into her pet character in the exact same way.

[Aucald]

Anduin existed before Golden was a thing, but he was turned into her pet character in the exact same way.

Being a "pet character" and being a Mary Sue are two very different things. You can adopt a pet, after all - and this is what Golden *may* have done with Anduin, but she certainly didn't create Anduin nor did she have a role in his characterization up until she was employed by Blizzard. Being a "Mary Sue" is a composition problem, it would have to occur when a character is made, not 10+ years after the fact. Even if a pre-existing character gains some of the tropes or characteristics of a stereotypical "Mary Sue" they still wouldn't be one, they'd just be a character under the hand of a bad writer.

[Jastall]

Being a "pet character" and being a Mary Sue are two very different things. You can adopt a pet, after all - and this is what Golden *may* have done with Anduin, but she certainly didn't create Anduin nor did she have a role in his characterization up until she was employed by Blizzard. Being a "Mary Sue" is a composition problem, it would have to occur when a character is made, not 10+ years after the fact. Even if a pre-existing character gains some of the tropes or characteristics of a stereotypical "Mary Sue" they still wouldn't be one, they'd just be a character under the hand of a bad writer.

I also did not call either Anduin or Nathanos Mary Sues so I'm not certain where that comes from. But Anduin very much is Golden's pet character (albeit I doubt she's responsible for all the writing around him), and Nathanos has clearly been adopted by Danuser in a similar way.

[Seylene]

Seeing as Nathanos was literally front and center with Tyrande and Malfurion during the Darkshore event I am curious if we will get any clues on what happens canonically.

[Aucald]

I also did not call either Anduin or Nathanos Mary Sues so I'm not certain where that comes from. But Anduin very much is Golden's pet character (albeit I doubt she's responsible for all the writing around him), and Nathanos has clearly been adopted by Danuser in a similar way.

The original post I replied to accused them of being Mary Sue type characters, and in this I wanted to underscore the difference between "Mary Sue" and "pet character" as terms. There's no value judgment accompanying the notion of a pet character, either - if the writer gives them superb writing and the character engages well with the fan community then this would been as a largely positive and beneficial scenario. If you detest either the author or the character then not so much. "Mary Sue," by contrast, is always a negatively valued assessment - Mary Sues are terrible characters on the face of it, and often created by authors who are bad at their jobs.

[Mehrunes]

Not quite, people just want better implemented and written characters, they don't want to follow a Mary Sue boot licker.

I am not 100% sure whether you're addressing Mary Sue remark at Nathanos or Sylvanas, but it's a misfire in either case. And what other characters are you talking about? Could it by any chance by Saint Thrall?

[Trassk]

I am not 100% sure whether you're addressing Mary Sue remark at Nathanos or Sylvanas, but it's a misfire in either case. And what other characters are you talking about? Could it by any chance by Saint Thrall?

if you haven't figured out yet the fact nathanos is a edge lord mary sue then you probably never will. And trying to stir away from that fact with pointing finger at another character for the same reason is just a weak ass pull.

[Mehrunes]

Lor'themar and Nathanos? Pretty sure they hate each other

Their banter was pretty chill at Lordaeron.

He's a Self insert of Danuser, and it's honestly disgusting how little anyone liking the character can't comprehend that.

It's disgusting that people can't comprehend your fantasies you constructed because you can't handle the character or the fact that people like him and not your beloved Thrall? Nathanos is the exact same he's always been, long before Danuser happened. You're engaging in conspiracy BS right here and bitching that people don't subscribe to your WoW equivalent of railing about chemtrails.

if you haven't figured out yet the fact nathanos is a edge lord mary sue then you probably never will. And trying to stir away from that fact with pointing finger at another character for the same reason is just a weak ass pull.

For him to be a Mary Sue he'd need to actually win some fights other than shooting unarmed, unprepared Zelling. So try again. And I'm not "stiring away" from anything (whatever that even means). Since you can't recall your own posts (I mean, I guess it's understandable you'd want to purge them from memory given their quality), the post of yours that I replied to had two points. Me talking about Thrall was addressing the first one.

And it doesn't occur to you that perhaps Danuser, who came in later, took the character and made changes to him to make him his Mary Sue? Doesn't have to create the character first to do that if someone has creative control, or haven't you heard of Frank miller's take on batman?

Do name those changes then.

[Thage]

I'm curious if they'll change how they direct Lor's VA since his model updated. The high pitched nasal tone doesn't really fit his new grizzled features.

Gideon Emery doesn't really have much range. That being said, his usual range is also pretty good for Lor'themar's voice, imo. It's just the right mix of melancholic and smug.

On-topic: While I'm glad to see more of Lor'themar, and figured he'd be important considering his recent model update, I really can't wait for this expansion to be over with so I don't have to keep dealing with Nathanos. I get that he's supposed to be a cynical fuckwad who's extremely loyal to Sylvanas, but having the guy regularly express surprise that Sylvanas needs our assistance and that we're good at what we do, when our character has a long history of killing godlike figures and handling damn near every major crisis since adventurers came in vogue, seems extremely arbitrary (as much so as when Garrosh offhandedly insulted the Horde adventurer who saved his clan from being wiped off the map in Northrend) and makes dealing with him for more than thirty seconds at a time legal justification to pluck his beard out hair by hair.

At least other acerbic characters like Taran Zhu had a good reason for constantly giving us shit and being kind of an asshole, and he got over it once you hit Exalted with the Shado-Pan. I'm Exalted with the Honorbound and Sylvanas's boytoy is still snidely acting like I'm some upjumped shitlord fresh out of the Valley of Trials and not a decorated veteran of more wars than he's bothered to take part in by a factor of ten. Please, Nathanos, tell me more about how badass you are compared to us, when you were busy polishing Sylvanas's collection of stylish leather outfits while we were off saving the world for the umpteenth time.

[Mehrunes]

Anduin existed before Golden was a thing, but he was turned into her pet character in the exact same way.

No one denies Nathanos being Danuser's pet character. But that has nothing to do with whether he's his self-insert or not (let alone a Mary Sue). Just like Anduin being Golden's pet character doesn't make him her self insert. Though Golden actually does have a self-insert character in the form of an unnamed Mage at the end of War Crimes.

[Trumpcat]

Not Nathanos, not Nathanos, not Nathanos, not Nathanos, not Nathanos.

I hope it's not Nathanos.

NOThanos.

[Super Dickmann]

No one denies Nathanos being Danuser's pet character. But that has nothing to do with whether he's his self-insert or not (let alone a Mary Sue). Just like Anduin being Golden's pet character doesn't make him her self insert. Though Golden actually does have a self-insert character in the form of an unnamed Mage at the end of War Crimes.

That mage is her most harmless character though.

As for pet characters, all writers have them. I'd say the only blatant self-inserts are Green Jesus, midlife crisis included and Rhonin. Pet characters abound but that's kind of inevitable for this game. Afrasiabi has Saurfang, Danuser has Nathanos, Kosak had Sylvanas, Golden has Anduin and Jaina and so forth.

[Thage]

No one denies Nathanos being Danuser's pet character. But that has nothing to do with whether he's his self-insert or not (let alone a Mary Sue). Just like Anduin being Golden's pet character doesn't make him her self insert. Though Golden actually does have a self-insert character in the form of an unnamed Mage at the end of War Crimes.

There's a white-haired warlock who's shown up in a few of Golden's books and a shy night elf priest who are inserts of hers, too. I actually like the warlock, her treating her Felhunter like an affectionate dog owner treats their pet is a twistedly-cute bit of flavor.

[Mehrunes]

That mage is her most harmless character though.

As for pet characters, all writers have them. I'd say the only blatant self-inserts are Green Jesus, midlife crisis included and Rhonin. Pet characters abound but that's kind of inevitable for this game. Afrasiabi has Saurfang, Danuser has Nathanos, Kosak had Sylvanas, Golden has Anduin and Jaina and so forth.

Yeah, not saying that character is something terrible. As far as self inserts go, this is how you should do them. Treat them as an easter egg, maybe give them a quick interaction with the established characters and move along. No qualms about her self-insert.

There's a white-haired warlock who's shown up in a few of Golden's books and a shy night elf priest who are inserts of hers, too. I actually like the warlock, her treating her Felhunter like an affectionate dog owner treats their pet is a twistedly-cute bit of flavor.

Hmm, I think I was actually thinking of the Warlock to begin with.

[Combatbutler]

Hmm, I think I was actually thinking of the Warlock to begin with.

She has two characters related to her as far as I know, the Warlock and a high elf.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Kriss_Goldenlight

OT

It is island of thunder time..... I mean time to raid Nazjatar. I wonder what the blood elves will steal this time, to use against their warchief later on.