D.C. housed the homeless in upscale apartments. It hasn’t gone as planned.

[Rasulis]

An interesting article on the difficulties in providing housing for the homeless.

D.C. housed the homeless in upscale apartments. It hasn’t gone as planned.

The biggest problem right now is that cities have limited options in dealing with their homeless population. The Supreme Court in 1972 made it difficult for city police forces to hustle along vagrants, and subsequent free-speech jurisprudence rulings have made outlawing panhandling tricky. Civil commitment and funding for the mentally ill has become highly restricted. In the name of civil rights, the ACLU (despite the many goods that they have done) has become a great de facto friend of vagrancy.

The hard core of the homeless population is cut off from human relationships and finds the perverse freedom of the streets more appealing than the structure that come with assistance and government funded housing. Many refuse help, either because they are too sick to make rational decisions or they don’t want to deal with any rules.

Some cities, like San Francisco, are now left with these hard core segment of the homeless population. Here is an article which discussed the intricate in-and-out of the California mental illness conservatorship law.

Why is it so hard to get mentally ill Californians into treatment? Three bills tell the tale

For years, Diane Shinstock watched her adult son deteriorate on the streets. Suffering from severe schizophrenia, he slept under stairwells and bushes, screamed at passersby and was arrested for throwing rocks at cars.

Sometimes he refused the housing options he was offered. Sometimes he got kicked out of places for bad behavior. Shinstock, who lives in Roseville and works on disability issues for the state of California, begged mental health officials to place him under conservatorship—essentially, depriving him of his personal liberty because he was so sick that he couldn’t provide for his most basic personal needs of food, clothing and shelter.

But county officials told her, she said, that under state law, her son could not be conserved; because he chose to live on the streets, he did not fit the criteria for “gravely disabled.”

“I was devastated,” she said. “I cried for days.”

So Shinstock—along with her husband Joe, a policy consultant who works for Republican leadership in the Assembly—set out to change state law. Their uphill battle illustrates the complex philosophical, legal and ethical questions that surround conservatorship in California.

What responsibility does government have to protect people with serious mental illnesses who refuse treatment? How should it balance the right to liberty with the need for care?

[Celista]

Housing is way cheaper than treatment and a lot of research has shown that if you provide homeless housing, their overall utilization of expensive forms of healthcare (inpatient treatment, ER visits) goes way down.

It's always been a balancing act in regards to the rights of the mentally ill. We used to throw anyone who was labelled "a problem" or "deviant" into insane asylums, including for reasons like a person being gay. It was very difficult and sometimes impossible for these people to escape these institutions, and the 1950s/60s was notorious for their shitty treatment of the mentally ill in institutions. Interestingly enough, around 1890 ish the mentally ill were far better off as they were shipped to farms etc and helped out with manual labor, and were generally treated much better than they were during the 1950s/60s.

Imo the laws are fine as they are now, if you care about what the civil commitment standards are by state they are here:https://www.treatmentadvocacycenter....Procedures.pdf What should happen is that once a person's behavior becomes a risk to themselves or others then they are involuntarily committed, then if necessary placed under a conservatorship with the state or with a relative, then the individual is placed in the care of that relative or placed in a group home or similar facility.

Really the reason why the homeless are homeless is that no one wants to pay to house them, about 40% of all homeless in the US are on disability and about half have a serious mental health or substance abuse issue, or both.

[Independent voter]

90% of homeless are homeless due to heroine or alcohol.

A house could cost $100 a month to rent and they still couldn't pay their rent because their drug of choice takes priority.

We used to put the mentally ill who couldn't take care of themselves in Asylums. Asylums were done away with by court order, but I think asylums had their uses.

[Triggered Fridgekin]

90% of homeless are homeless due to heroine or alcohol.

Citation needed

[Celista]

90% of homeless are homeless due to heroine or alcohol.

That figure is not accurate. About 30% of homeless say they have an alcohol use problem. Most of the hardcore drug use is actually among younger homeless (teens to early 20s). Even among homeless youth, who have the highest rate of substance use, heroin and other hard drug use estimates max out at 70% (aka that is the highest possible estimate).

It's hard to get an accurate estimate on substance use and the homeless but no one thinks 90% of the problem is heroin or alcohol. Here's a source if you want actual data: https://www.hudexchange.info/resourc...HAR-Part-1.pdf and https://files.hudexchange.info/repor...errDC_2018.pdf (see "chronic substance use" part of the chart).

Short term homelessness is almost always due to poverty and does not involve substance use at all. Long term homelessness is far more likely to be a mental health issue (most of the problem), with substance use.

[JohnBrown1917]

Citation needed

Its hubcap, no point in asking.

[Unholyground]

90% of homeless are homeless due to heroine or alcohol.

A house could cost $100 a month to rent and they still couldn't pay their rent because their drug of choice takes priority.

We used to put the mentally ill who couldn't take care of themselves in Asylums. Asylums were done away with by court order, but I think asylums had their uses.

Or legalize all drugs and create facilities that provide them said drugs and a safe place to do them until they are ready to face their problems. That is the only method that works.

[Celista]

Citation needed

I seriously don't understand why Hubcap spouts garbage as facts without having any sort of knowledge himself about an issue.

[zenkai]

Or legalize all drugs and create facilities that provide them said drugs and a safe place to do them until they are ready to face their problems. That is the only method that works.

LMAO yup just make something that destroys lives easier to get.

[Rasulis]

Housing is way cheaper than treatment and a lot of research has shown that if you provide homeless housing, their overall utilization of expensive forms of healthcare (inpatient treatment, ER visits) goes way down.

It's always been a balancing act in regards to the rights of the mentally ill. We used to throw anyone who was labelled "a problem" or "deviant" into insane asylums, including for reasons like a person being gay. It was very difficult and sometimes impossible for these people to escape these institutions, and the 1950s/60s was notorious for their shitty treatment of the mentally ill in institutions. Interestingly enough, around 1890 ish the mentally ill were far better off as they were shipped to farms etc and helped out with manual labor, and were generally treated much better than they were during the 1950s/60s.

Imo the laws are fine as they are now, if you care about what the civil commitment standards are by state they are here:https://www.treatmentadvocacycenter....Procedures.pdf What should happen is that once a person's behavior becomes a risk to themselves or others then they are involuntarily committed, then if necessary placed under a conservatorship with the state or with a relative, then the individual is placed in the care of that relative or placed in a group home or similar facility.

Really the reason why the homeless are homeless is that no one wants to pay to house them, about 40% of all homeless in the US are on disability and about half have a serious mental health or substance abuse issue, or both.

The segment of the homeless population that I highlighted above is the one that gives cities the most headache. Around half of the homeless population in SF is sheltered. Half of the 241M SF spent fighting homelessness in 2015 was for people that was already housed. However, the SF homeless housing program operates with a strict Code of Conduct which requires sobriety, nonviolence, cooperation and participation. I highlighted sobriety, because most of the homeless people that I see on the streets of SF will not be able to meet that criteria.

[Unholyground]

LMAO yup just make something that destroys lives easier to get.

Yes that is exactly what you do, and make sure all the negatives are taught to people. No sane or stable person will go out and do heroine if it becomes legal tomorrow knowing the effects.

All the countries where they did this properly was successful.

[Chinese Bootlickers]

90% of homeless are homeless due to heroine or alcohol.

A house could cost $100 a month to rent and they still couldn't pay their rent because their drug of choice takes priority.

We used to put the mentally ill who couldn't take care of themselves in Asylums. Asylums were done away with by court order, but I think asylums had their uses.

Go fuck yourself with a rake.

I'll bite the infraction.

[Celista]

Go fuck yourself with a rake.

I'll bite the infraction.

You know what's sad is...when I think of the average Republican, I think of Hubcap.

Not sure if his posts are 100% serious but he's not doing himself any favors.

[nymphetsss]

I have the contract to do repairs for an apartment building through our "community housing association" , its 32 suites and they have staff(social workers) and security there 24/7 . That place is a goddamn gold mine, replacing doors they've kicked down, holes in the walls, broken windows, doors ripped off cabinets, the list goes on and on. Id say im there on average a week every month.

[Najnaj]

90% of homeless are homeless due to heroine or alcohol.

A house could cost $100 a month to rent and they still couldn't pay their rent because their drug of choice takes priority.

We used to put the mentally ill who couldn't take care of themselves in Asylums. Asylums were done away with by court order, but I think asylums had their uses.

This is wildly incorrect. Most homeless people differ little from you or me besides being homeless. A vast majority of homeless people hold jobs. It seems you are confusing homeless with hobo.

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LMAO yup just make something that destroys lives easier to get.

If you let doctors prescribe it to addicts you remove most of the illegal drug trade besides perhaps cocaine and pot. This is absolutely a questionable thing to do but also very much a "lesser of two evils" situation. You get to chose between having junkies in the street or having junkies in the street AND gangs... or perhaps more gangs is a better choice of words.

Also worth noting that many drugs are actually not all that bad for you. I am obviously not going to claim that heroin is healthy but the factors that surround SOME of them are far more damaging that the drugs themselves. Look at Burroughs, he died in his late 80s after having been a heroin addict for what...50 years++.

[Celista]

Basically the theory is that you legalize it and then throw the money you'd spend fighting the drugs at treatment for those who are addicted. When people get quality treatment their odds of staying clean increase. Sadly, the quality treatment in the US all costs a ton of money.

AA meetings are free and effective if people show up. Detox is the expensive part, it can be life-threatening for detox from some substances if people do it without medical supervision.

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This is wildly incorrect. Most homeless people differ little from you or me besides being homeless. A vast majority of homeless people hold jobs. It seems you are confusing homeless with hobo.

Seems like a good time to remind people that the average heroin user nowadays is white and middle-class. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2...icts-next-door

[Kasierith]

This is wildly incorrect. Most homeless people differ little from you or me besides being homeless. A vast majority of homeless people hold jobs. It seems you are confusing homeless with hobo.

Depends on what you mean by differ. If you mean that they, unlike us, are sinister or evil or dumb or druggies, you are right in that that would be incorrect. But a lot of people who are homeless are like that because the way they think and operate, how they perceive things like working or money, how they view the lines and restrictions that most of society runs according to. Many have deep suspicions of the normal status quo. Obviously there are many, many different circumstances, but across the board it's probably fair to say that most people who are homeless have a completely different way of interacting with society that led them to that point.

[Celista]

Depends on what you mean by differ. If you mean that they, unlike us, are sinister or evil or dumb or druggies, you are right in that that would be incorrect. But a lot of people who are homeless are like that because the way they think and operate, how they perceive things like working or money, how they view the lines and restrictions that most of society runs according to. Many have deep suspicions of the normal status quo. Obviously there are many, many different circumstances, but across the board it's probably fair to say that most people who are homeless have a completely different way of interacting with society that led them to that point.

After working with a few homeless I don't think that's fair to say at all. There are lots of reasons why people become homeless but the one factor that seems pretty consistent is some sort of disability (whether health or mental health related). It's important to note that homelessness rises every time there's an economic recession/depression so economic factors are very clearly relevant as it relates to homelessness. In fact I would say that is the #1 reason why people become homeless, simply not having enough money to survive on.

That being said, being homeless changes a person and if you talk to the average homeless person they will tell you that themselves. Some report feeling subhuman or that they have given up and no longer have any hope for things improving in their life. It's also important to note here that research shows that just as many people become addicts or struggle with mental health AFTER becoming homeless, not before, due to the stress related with homelessness and using substances to cope. Many stop trusting others because they have promised to help (whether family or the government) but no one came to help them.

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AA can be effective, but it's not effective for everyone. It actually drove me back to drinking before I just worked my own program without their religious bullshit. NA is even worse. A treatment plan that's crafted for the individual though? Works far more frequently.

Sure but nothing works for everyone. SMART recovery might be something for you to look into, if you ever need it again...it's CBT based and doesn't have the religious aspect.

Social support imo is the #1 thing that helps addicts, there's a lot of studies that indicate social factors influence substance use more than anything else. https://www.npr.org/sections/health-...ing-bad-habits

[Najnaj]

Depends on what you mean by differ. If you mean that they, unlike us, are sinister or evil or dumb or druggies, you are right in that that would be incorrect. But a lot of people who are homeless are like that because the way they think and operate, how they perceive things like working or money, how they view the lines and restrictions that most of society runs according to. Many have deep suspicions of the normal status quo. Obviously there are many, many different circumstances, but across the board it's probably fair to say that most people who are homeless have a completely different way of interacting with society that led them to that point.

Actually, most people are homeless because of background and bad luck. Half the homeless people in the west are families with children for example. People tend to have bad views about them since the homeless people you can actually identify as homeless tends to be a bit on the scruffy side but they are not even 1/4th of the total number.

[Celista]

I have the contract to do repairs for an apartment building through our "community housing association" , its 32 suites and they have staff(social workers) and security there 24/7 . That place is a goddamn gold mine, replacing doors they've kicked down, holes in the walls, broken windows, doors ripped off cabinets, the list goes on and on. Id say im there on average a week every month.

Yeah that's the flip side to Housing First policies/not requiring mental health treatment for housing...the chronically mentally ill can be very destructive. Some of the social workers that work for our housing social services programs report the same.

It's important to point out that the people who act like this are about 15% of the overall homeless population or less. The homeless people you tend to see as you head to work are the chronically homeless ones with serious issues. For every crazy homeless person you see outside sleeping on a bench, there's five more that are just normal people in a shitty situation.