Paladins in 5mans

[Nargoron]

I posted in other thread (https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ladin-Leveling) this post:

Hi there,

my idea was something like:
10-20
go for this https://classic.wowhead.com/talent-calc/paladin/AswQAAA
a) in order to be able tank dungeons, you need consecration (i tried it without and it doesn't work :/ even with holy shield)
- so you get + str (there is no intellect gear suitable for you anyway),
- spiritial focus - despite the fact, you lose some dps, its life savior
- and finally consecration so you can aoe in dungeons with retirbution aura. In open world you dont use it that much, unless you play with friend ( i lvled with priest so i can pull 5-6 mobs and aoe them down on low levels - gnolls in wetlands are fine spot for example). Bu twohander will be used more offten, so rather keep your 2-hander up to date. Because situation where you fight just one mob are quite common.

20-31
then go for retri talents
https://classic.wowhead.com/talent-c...din/AswQAAIwwQ
on 31 you get seal of command, its quite late but thats the price of being ,,half tank"
- go for cheaper seals - helpful for dungeons so you wouldnt be oom that fast.
- extra parry for tankiness
- seal of command
Again you are still able to aoe mobs with 1-h and shield, especialy if someone healing you (and you can selfheal because of 70% pushback immunity) but killing 1 mob with seal of command and two hander will be more common situation.

31-41
same as previous part.
But your retri aura will be more effitient which help alot when u r tanking dungeons. For single target you have Sanctity aura

41-50
improved Righteous fury is very missing in this part. But if you respec for prot before 51, you would be very weak outside the dungeons (pvp with caster, time to kill of single mob). Use blessing of salvation on everybody in your party and try to keep mobs on you during dungeons. Blessing of protection helps alot if caster/healer has too much threath.
on lvl 50 you are on this talents: https://classic.wowhead.com/talent-c...n/AswQAAQxzc9w
If you crit, your Consecration + retribution aura do enough damage (don't forget to keep Righteous fury on your self in dungeons)

51
hurrey, respec: https://classic.wowhead.com/talent-c...n/AjwQBD3PAa0A
int over str - bigger mana pool means more consecrations and seals on big pulls. You do more holy damage then physical (that is why int over str, but you lose some damage block form str).
Keep spiritual focus to be able to selfheal ( if you turn on concentration aura you are immune to pushback)
You can sacrifice some armor talent for HoJ if you are on pvp server. Or put two talents to make Blessing of Protection more available, because it helps a lot in dungeons...

For 52-60 add rest of the points in Benediction and parry or imp. seal of crusaider which help against bosses.

Have fun

Unfortunately noone react on that... i would like to hear your opinion and i think it fit with topic to this thread as well.

[Ange]

Hybrids are pretty awfull in 5mans. Sure you can tank a dungeon, you could even tank strat/scholo 60 as a SHAMAN if you really wanted to (did it myself). It doesnt change the fact that a a protwarrior is lightyears ahead in everything you could do as a tank and holy priest without the endless long fight durations like in raids, have a very easy time doing much better in 5mans.

WoW vanilla / classic is pretty heavy shifted to the HOLY TRINITY (Warrior-Priest-Mage), the hybrid tax in vanilla was pretty hard to compensate - just read up how some of the hybrid skills scale with stats and how limited your gearing choices are to understand what awaits you in classic.

Hybrid = offheal, if you play with competitive players you are just dead weight if you try to do anything else

[Mackeith]

Hybrids are pretty awfull in 5mans. Sure you can tank a dungeon, you could even tank strat/scholo 60 as a SHAMAN if you really wanted to (did it myself). It doesnt change the fact that a a protwarrior is lightyears ahead in everything you could do as a tank and holy priest without the endless long fight durations like in raids, have a very easy time doing much better in 5mans.

WoW vanilla / classic is pretty heavy shifted to the HOLY TRINITY (Warrior-Priest-Mage), the hybrid tax in vanilla was pretty hard to compensate - just read up how some of the hybrid skills scale with stats and how limited your gearing choices are to understand what awaits you in classic.

Hybrid = offheal, if you play with competitive players you are just dead weight if you try to do anything else

I think as many people have pointed out, this question is pertaining to 5-mans, and mostly related to how you would fare in a PUG. I'll hands down agree that picking a Warrior to tank your PUG group is a much better choice in all instances, but the fact is that tanks are few and far between, and if we're looking at dungeon completion time, including the time it takes to form your group, grabbing that Feral or Prot Pala might save you more than an hour in the end, and the dungeon will get completed regardless.

[Daikoku]

It isn't 100% true that Warrior are better that PPala in 5man.
PPala can't pop out awesome Defensive CD like Warrior but deals way more DMG/Reflect DMG/AOE DMG than Prot War.

[Daikoku]

I posted in other thread (https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ladin-Leveling) this post:



Unfortunately noone react on that... i would like to hear your opinion and i think it fit with topic to this thread as well.

Your problem is that you take the wrong approach.


You have to understand that levelling as Prot is not like now.
RN tank dish out a tons of dmg so you can go full tank basically and still level without problem.


The issue in Vanilla is that a tank had 0 dmg, was pure shit levelling trying to kill a mob missing spell etc etc.
So you have to understand that there are 2 scenarios

The first is 1-59 and the second is 60.

1-59 is just "efficiency killing" you don't need parry, no that having 5% or 6% will be a huge difference while levelling.

Otherwise dealing 15% on the SoR while levelling is way better because things die fast and don't kill you.

So you focus on the DMG aspect of Protection.
Going deeper in Retri have no sense if you want to level as Prot pulling 2-4 mobs, it has if you are levelling Retri 1h but that is another playstile.

You will never have a huge uptime on Venegance to boost holy dmg from Consacration, if you miss a spell you don't hit so not even crit.

Meanwhile going Prot with HS and BoS even if you miss you will still deal reflect dmg.

[Nargoron]

Your problem is that you take the wrong approach.


You have to understand that levelling as Prot is not like now.
RN tank dish out a tons of dmg so you can go full tank basically and still level without problem.


The issue in Vanilla is that a tank had 0 dmg, was pure shit levelling trying to kill a mob missing spell etc etc.
So you have to understand that there are 2 scenarios

The first is 1-59 and the second is 60.

1-59 is just "efficiency killing" you don't need parry, no that having 5% or 6% will be a huge difference while levelling.

Otherwise dealing 15% on the SoR while levelling is way better because things die fast and don't kill you.

So you focus on the DMG aspect of Protection.
Going deeper in Retri have no sense if you want to level as Prot pulling 2-4 mobs, it has if you are levelling Retri 1h but that is another playstile.

You will never have a huge uptime on Venegance to boost holy dmg from Consacration, if you miss a spell you don't hit so not even crit.

Meanwhile going Prot with HS and BoS even if you miss you will still deal reflect dmg.

But this damage output of the prot. tree is on the end...
Your damage is consecration + Retri aura (and imp. retri aura is in retri tree not protect). Only after level 51 when you have holy shield you get this ,,damage" aspec of prot. (or level 40 if you go without consecration, but then u have really hard time tanking dungeons during leveling, which is what i want to do).
And that is the reason why i go prot at level 51.

Can you put some example of your leveling? or what build you prefer? and when to respec? If you respec?

[Ragedaug]

IDD but the difference between vanilla and tbc was basically this, ASSUMING LV 60 FOR BOTH

Vanilla vs TBC (clipped)


Basically both tree were 90% similar and thus Pala Prot pre 2.0.1 and 2.0.1 didn't notice a huge difference at lv 60, you noticed it during levelling.

But in 2.0.1 PProt got : Taunt "AoE" | Ardent Defender | RFury flat dmg redux talent


Those were HUGE buffs and let PProt begin viable for MT Tanking in TBC Raids, 5man doesnt count since they were viable even before so..

Sure, but I'm talking about leveling (1-60), not Level 60 end game.

[Daikoku]

But this damage output of the prot. tree is on the end...
Your damage is consecration + Retri aura (and imp. retri aura is in retri tree not protect). Only after level 51 when you have holy shield you get this ,,damage" aspec of prot. (or level 40 if you go without consecration, but then u have really hard time tanking dungeons during leveling, which is what i want to do).
And that is the reason why i go prot at level 51.

Can you put some example of your leveling? or what build you prefer? and when to respec? If you respec?

That is why I made a post above where I explained 1 plausible path to follow.


You need level 30 to get 0/21/0 and unlock Blessing of Sanctuary ( DMG Redux per Hit + Reflect Holy DMG on Blocks )

This works because you don't have Defense Cap and thus you will be susceptible to Crit Attack.

Also at 26 you gain Retribution Aura so your reflect dmg will be higher.
Plus at 30 you get Seal of Light and thus you can sustain yourself.

------


But what about 1-30? You will not be able to do anything rushing Prot Tree, so you will start with a

11/0/10 build

Rush Consacration + Imp SoRSS

Then you go in Retri for the Benediction/Imp Judg and Imp SoCrus
To boost your sustain dmg etc etc


Then at this point you are LV 30 and can respect 0/21/0 if you want to start asap Prot Leveling.

OR you can just push it to 31, respec to 11/0/11

Trading ImpSoRSS for Spiritual Focus and get Seal of Command

And level like this 1h+Shield.
You will be able to level and tank, especially to hold aggro due to Consacration.
You will be more oriented in sustained dmg and burst through SoC and the ImpJudgment and SoCrusase Debuff
BUT less tanky.


Then at 41 you can finally respec to 11/21/0 and gain both Consacration and BoSanctuary and become an AOE farming machine and an AOE tank

[RoKPaNda]

No it isnt stop spread bullshit as usual.

If you never played Vanilla or didn't try out any hybrid spec have the decency to shut the fuck up.

Why are you so angry because I'm telling you the truth about Vanilla paladins? You'll see when classic releases. Paladins won't be tanking anything unless they vastly outgear it and it's immune to taunt. If anyone didn't play Vanilla here I'm going to guess it's you.

[Daikoku]

Why are you so angry because I'm telling you the truth about Vanilla paladins? You'll see when classic releases. Paladins won't be tanking anything unless they vastly outgear it and it's immune to taunt. If anyone didn't play Vanilla here I'm going to guess it's you.

Because having already played Vanilla both back at the original release and even after {even if there are some fishy stuff}, I have already saw and tested the limit of Prot Paladin.

So anything on the line " durr Pala Prot vanilla me no saw ever so me think no working" is just a pile of bullshit from somebody that is trolling or never played during vanilla.



Also we already discussed here the Pro and Cons of Prot Pala and what to expect if you want to play that spec, beside this is just people wasting time trying to nagging.

[StrawberryZebra]

Yeah, Druids were 3 target AOE, and it was frontal cone. Warriors had 360 with T-Clap, and it was 4 targets, which is better than Druid, but nothing beats 360-all-targets with Pally and consecration for holding AOE threat on big pulls.

Thunder Clap was Battle Stance only, so it didn't get the threat modifier from Defencive Stance. It was still a useful move, particularly on the pull after a charge, but it wasn't something Warriors would ever really spam on cooldown. If you had a boss that required you keep it up, it would usually be done by one of the DPS Warriors with the Improved Talent.

The Warriors biggest AoE threat generator was Battle Shout - Which was outright bonkers when in a group with Hunters and all their pets. We used to kill Nefarian by having our MT just spaming Battle Shout throughout phase 1. It used to bring pretty much all of the Dragonkin to him. Refreshing it on all 9 targets was something like 800 threat per GCD. Even in a more typical 5 man group, assuming everyone is in range for it, you're still going to generate about 450 threat per use. In a 360 degree radius, with unlimited range.

Demoralising Shout was also a huge threat generator too, and like Consecration, was 360 degrees and hit unlimited targets.

A max rank Consecration was 48 damage per second, which is about 91 threat per second assuming you've taken Imp.Righteous Fury, which is a lot certainly but it doesn't hold a candle to Battle Shout. It compared more favourably to Demoralising Shout, but was a huge drain on your mana, where Demoralising Shout could be spammed pretty much indefinately.

The problem with Paladin AoE was that you only got the threat modifer on Holy Damage. Which was nice in a vacuum, but when you consider buffs like Thorns, Fire Shield and various other reflective sources, their total threat output wasn't quite as high as you might think. The Warriors and Druids got those damage sources multiplied by their innate threat modifers too, where Paladins didn't. It helped them close the gap terms of total AoE threat.

[Ateo]

Lol man your inexperience and blatantly obvious attitude showing that you aren’t a real vanilla player is showing.

Obviously, yes it’s luck based welcome to classic.

The fact is if you are CONSISTENTLY clearing MC EVERY reset, you will have multiple thunderfury and hand of rag by the time Nax drops, it’s sheer statistics. Its exactly how my guild had 2 rogues and 1 warrior with complete warglaive sets by the time sunwell dropped, we cleared it weekly, non stop, on farm so we seen multiple legendaries drop.

Also you do realize that it’s not retail, personal loot doesn’t exist so you aren’t fucked waiting on personal RNG, master looter is a thing and officers dictate who gets what legendary right? Considering the fact that’s pre-decided(just like every other legendary being handed out in any guild worth being in). If your goal is to get thunderfury or hand of rag and your guild AGREES with that decision, you will in fact have one by Naxx.

Also I’ll reiterate this for you, ANYONE using a legendary that is competent is competitive. If you think a Ret with hand of rag and gear to match it will be trash you are severely wrong.

[collax]

Just sayin


[ye ye patch 2.01 but tbc was on 2.0.3 with the prot viability buffs]

By this metric, does this make hunter viable raid tank too ?

[Daikoku]

By this metric, does this make hunter viable raid tank too ?

Only if you can find other videos where it can tank 5 man otherwise is just like Rogue full dodge tanking Illidan in TBC

[collax]

Only if you can find other videos where it can tank 5 man otherwise is just like Rogue full dodge tanking Illidan in TBC

Pretty sure there has to be some hunter who managed to tank some dungeon with their pet

[Animalhouse]

But let's be honest, it's not gonna happen, as it's not gonna happen with druid tanks - people will be playing meta and same builds because they want to raid and if you want to raid you need to stay within the acceptable frames. Ofc, you can go against the flow and start tanking as paladin but nope, if you want success, you go heal or pick warrior as a tank.

Clearly, you know NOTHING about vanilla other than BS forum talk from trolls who like you, NEVER played vanilla or PS.
There will be plenty of Pally and Druid tanks, guarantee it. Make sure to check your ignorance at the door if you plan on playing classic. Your preconceived notions are utter nonsense.

OP asked: "How are Paladins in 5 mans? Are they good at tanking/healing/dpsing?

Do they have fun class quests?

Going Human.

Thanks."


He is not talking about raids and quite frankly all the raid focus talk is getting ridiculous since it is such a minor part of classic and FAR FAR off from when you first create your toon. Raiding makes up like less than 5% of the classic experience.

- - - Updated - - -

Druid have the worst aoe threat. And aoe threat is literally the only thing a paladin can do well (and better than any other tank). Tanks are rare for 5man anyway so anything that can tank be will be sought.

WRONG, Feral tanks are the BEST threat tanks because maul's threat formula is multiplicative whereas heroic strike's is additive. Moreover, feral tanks can use manual crowd pummelers from Gnomer to increase their attack speed by 50% (yes, that means up to 50% more mauls if you have the rage for it, and you have a loooot of rage when raid bosses wail on you). There is no contest in this regard. Yes, damage on a feral tank is spikier but this matters less as they flask and acquire more stam gear. Maul + Swipe makes Druids one of the best AoE tanks and they are considered the strongest pre-raid tank.

Edit: oh and BTW, Thunderclap in vanilla was NOT usable in Defense stance and only hit 3 mobs.

[azkhane]

Tanking with a paly is a waste, better play as healer or dps supporting with BoK and cleanse, supporting with heals and maybe offtanking any add that hit the healer, its very fun to play that way and i will say its the way paly mean to be played

[Molis]

As long as you are in a group that knows what they are doing Pally tank will be fine until the end games dungeons.

Not having a taunt or oom is a huge issue.

Pally healer is best bar none

Dont know much about Ret

[RoKPaNda]

Because having already played Vanilla both back at the original release and even after {even if there are some fishy stuff}, I have already saw and tested the limit of Prot Paladin.

So anything on the line " durr Pala Prot vanilla me no saw ever so me think no working" is just a pile of bullshit from somebody that is trolling or never played during vanilla.



Also we already discussed here the Pro and Cons of Prot Pala and what to expect if you want to play that spec, beside this is just people wasting time trying to nagging.

Like I said, being realistic, you're not going to see paladins tanking anything significant. The only time you'll see a paladin tanking something is if they overgear it and if it's immune to taunt anyway. They weren't good for tanking in Vanilla. Their DPS as ret was horribly subpar. For the most part they were healers and buff bots.

[Gungnir]

Because having already played Vanilla both back at the original release and even after {even if there are some fishy stuff}, I have already saw and tested the limit of Prot Paladin.

So anything on the line " durr Pala Prot vanilla me no saw ever so me think no working" is just a pile of bullshit from somebody that is trolling or never played during vanilla.



Also we already discussed here the Pro and Cons of Prot Pala and what to expect if you want to play that spec, beside this is just people wasting time trying to nagging.

To be fair, considering there's even video evidence of a Prot Paladin on a PS getting trucked in tier 2 gear with Thunderfury while trying to tank Strat, Paladins have a lot of issues with tanking.